Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Lagoon Nebula (M8)

  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 Ursa Minor

Ursa Minor

    Mercury-Atlas

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 2655
  • Joined: 10 Jul 2018
  • Loc: St. Louis, Mo. USA

Posted 04 August 2018 - 01:50 PM

OK, folks, I think I looked at the Lagoon last night, but really can't confirm it. Lots of stars, huddled in a fairly tight area, but that's it. This was slightly below and to the right of Saturn, roughly 9:30 PM. Perhaps I'm just expecting too much, but I saw nothing that looked like what I assumed it would look like, no aura, nebulosity, fuzziness, just nothing. Without fancy filters and stuff, is that all there is to it? (I was viewing at roughly 90X.)

 

Thanks a bunch,



#2 AllanDystrup

AllanDystrup

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1491
  • Joined: 27 Sep 2012
  • Loc: Denmark

Posted 04 August 2018 - 02:01 PM

...just nothing. Without fancy filters and stuff, is that all there is to it? (I was viewing at roughly 90X.)

     

     I made an observation of the Lagoon in July this year, using my 80mm Refractor at 44x magnification. I could detect

     

...a nebulous mist around the base of the “mast” (9 Sgr), and a string of three ~8m stars embedded in a haze of unresolved fainter cluster members to the E of the nebula. The star cluster is NGC6530 and the nebula is NGC6523, both part of the M8 “Lagoon” star-forming complex.

 

     Link to my obs. report here: https://www.cloudyni...sier/?p=8621807

     -- Allan
 


  • Tyson M and Ursa Minor like this

#3 eckloss

eckloss

    Explorer 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 54
  • Joined: 15 Jun 2018

Posted 04 August 2018 - 02:02 PM

I asked exactly the same thing last night about M8. Here is the thread that followed:

 

https://www.cloudyni...-m8-be-visible/


Edited by eckloss, 04 August 2018 - 02:03 PM.

  • Kunama and Ursa Minor like this

#4 Capn26

Capn26

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 527
  • Joined: 17 May 2018

Posted 04 August 2018 - 02:08 PM

I am by no means an expert, I just got back into astronomy a few months ago. But lagoon is one of my favorite targets. No matter what conditions I find it under, I see nebulosity. On its worst night there are at least filaments. On its best I can see it scopeless. My home skys are in a transition from a yellow to light yellow area. Sorry, I don’t know my bortle or NELM.

I never need filters, and honestly, the just show a bit of detail in the glow when I do. Is it possible you were at the Trifid nebula which is just above lagoon? They’re very close, and trifid has looked more like a cluster at times.

You’re magnification is spot on. A little less would likely help with initial ID, but once you find it 90x should be fine.

Btw, I use a 130mm and an 8” dob.

Edited by Capn26, 04 August 2018 - 02:10 PM.

  • Ursa Minor likes this

#5 NEOhio

NEOhio

    Vanguard

  • -----
  • Posts: 2061
  • Joined: 12 Apr 2016
  • Loc: Cleveland, Ohio, USA

Posted 04 August 2018 - 02:30 PM

Where were you observing? If you were at a dark site, no moon and could see the Milky Way arching overhead, then no, you were not looking at it because under a dark sky you should see nebulosity in M8.

 

OTOH, if you were in a suburb, or with the moon close to full, then you may well have not seen any nebulosity at all.

 

This is the difference between observing at a dark site versus in a light polluted urbanized area or under a bright moon.


  • ShaulaB, havasman, Tyson M and 1 other like this

#6 Capn26

Capn26

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 527
  • Joined: 17 May 2018

Posted 04 August 2018 - 02:40 PM

Where were you observing? If you were at a dark site, no moon and could see the Milky Way arching overhead, then no, you were not looking at it because under a dark sky you should see nebulosity in M8.

OTOH, if you were in a suburb, or with the moon close to full, then you may well have not seen any nebulosity at all.

This is the difference between observing at a dark site versus in a light polluted urbanized area or under a bright moon.


Absolutely. But of all nebulas I’ve looked at this summer, at least the core of this is always glowing. To me it looks like a “grid” of evenly spaced stars in the center. This area is always glowing. And I saw it first in orange beach Alabama from a resort balcony with lit up cloud cover extending a mile off shore and a fullish Moon.

#7 Waddensky

Waddensky

    Mariner 2

  • -----
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 218
  • Joined: 18 Sep 2017
  • Loc: The Netherlands

Posted 04 August 2018 - 02:46 PM

Messier 8 is not so obvious under suboptimal conditions, but it's also very large so it may be difficult so discern from the background using too much magnification. It's possible that the stars you saw were NGC 6530, the cluster embedded in the nebula. The brightest part of the nebula is a bit more to the west, around 9 Sgr.

 

The Omega Nebula (Messier 17) is perhaps an easier target, with the bright horizontal bar readiliy visible in small apertures.


Edited by Waddensky, 04 August 2018 - 02:47 PM.

  • Ursa Minor likes this

#8 Ursa Minor

Ursa Minor

    Mercury-Atlas

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 2655
  • Joined: 10 Jul 2018
  • Loc: St. Louis, Mo. USA

Posted 04 August 2018 - 02:49 PM

Where were you observing? If you were at a dark site, no moon and could see the Milky Way arching overhead, then no, you were not looking at it because under a dark sky you should see nebulosity in M8.

 

OTOH, if you were in a suburb, or with the moon close to full, then you may well have not seen any nebulosity at all.

 

This is the difference between observing at a dark site versus in a light polluted urbanized area or under a bright moon.

I'm in St Louis county, and it's not really all that dark at all, even directly overhead, though that's much better that toward the horizon. The half moon didn't really rise until about 2:00 AM, so that was no issue, as this took place around 9:30 PM last night. I can never see the Milky Way from here at all, ever.



#9 jcj380

jcj380

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 1514
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2014
  • Loc: 42N 88W

Posted 04 August 2018 - 02:51 PM

Last time I had a look from my LP soup, I was able to detect a couple of bright stars to the west in some neb, a dark rift to the east and then a small cluster of fainter stars to the east of the rift, also embedded in some neb.  But I was using a filter.

 

Lat time I looked without a filter, i was able to see a little neb around the two brighter stars to the west and the small cluster to the east with no nebulosiity.

 

Google some sketches of it at lower powers and you'll get a better idea of what to look for.  Maybe there's something on the Turn Left at Orion web page.


  • Ursa Minor likes this

#10 NiteGuy

NiteGuy

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1239
  • Joined: 27 May 2013
  • Loc: Northern Arizona

Posted 04 August 2018 - 03:21 PM

I'm sorry to report that the Lagoon Nebula has retired and moved to Las Vegas.


  • Ursa Minor likes this

#11 ShaulaB

ShaulaB

    Surveyor 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 1590
  • Joined: 11 Oct 2012
  • Loc: Missouri

Posted 04 August 2018 - 03:22 PM

From the Gateway Arch in downtown St. Louis, it is 39 miles to the Broemmelsiek Park Astronomy Site in St. Charles County. https://www.sccmo.or...my-Viewing-Area

 

The astronomy viewing part of the park has no gate, so it is open 24/7 for astronomy people. It is free and open to the public. The park rangers chase away rowdy teenagers or people who just go there to sit in cars. Put 1611 Schwede Road 63385 into Google Maps to locate the park.

 

When there is no Moon, the Milky Way can be discerned. Limiting magnitude can reach 5.5 on good nights. That's not spectacular, like out in the country, but not bad for suburbs. The nebulosity of the Lagoon can be seen, no problem in binoculars. Lots of observers use the park as a base for imaging, as electric power is available. There is also a restroom. 

 

For darker skies, observers in Eastern Missouri drive out hwy 70 to the Danville Conservation Area. The ranger is cool with astronomy people setting up telescopes and staying all night. Here is a link. https://nightsky.jpl...?Event_ID=62770


  • Jim T and Ursa Minor like this

#12 havasman

havasman

    Cosmos

  • ****-
  • Posts: 9837
  • Joined: 04 Aug 2013
  • Loc: Dallas, Texas

Posted 04 August 2018 - 03:44 PM

I'm in St Louis county, and it's not really all that dark at all, even directly overhead, though that's much better that toward the horizon. The half moon didn't really rise until about 2:00 AM, so that was no issue, as this took place around 9:30 PM last night. I can never see the Milky Way from here at all, ever.

Yeah well you're kinda SOL, as I am from my home site. But find yourself a dark observing site and the whole thing changes to a brilliant extended mass of detailed nebulosity with embedded stars, high contrast dark lanes and large scale dynamic range to the brightness of the widely extended nebulosity. Get thee to the dark for these objects or observe appropriate objects from the city - open clusters, bright planetary nebulae, globular clusters, colored and double stars, asterisms and brighter components of constellations.

Also, it matters what tool you're using. And not for the reason you may think. An inexperienced observer can likely see M8 with a decent pair of 42 or 50mm binoculars from a dark site. Many observers might have more difficulty with the observation using a scope with a smaller FOV due to the fact that M8 extends visually to 90' x 40' and much further in deep images. That can easily place the edges outside the FOV. W/o seeing an edge it can be difficult to realize you're seeing nebulosity.


  • Ursa Minor likes this

#13 Tyson M

Tyson M

    Soyuz

  • *****
  • Posts: 3650
  • Joined: 22 Jan 2015
  • Loc: 53 degrees North

Posted 04 August 2018 - 03:55 PM

This nebula is hard to miss from a dark site. It is very low for me, but one of the best views of the night sky. Summer's Orion nebula, very much its equal in splendor. 

 

I hope you get to find it soon!  


  • Ursa Minor likes this

#14 Migwan

Migwan

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1425
  • Joined: 24 Jul 2017
  • Loc: Meeechigan

Posted 04 August 2018 - 04:18 PM

Last year I was able to bump up the mag a bit on the M8.  It was almost as good as Orion.  This year I have a new and improved dark site, that has a very distant low light dome to the SE.   Of course that is where M8 was earlier this summer when I was last there.  The thing really suffered compared to my other (not quite as dark) dark site, which has no light dome.  LP or a lack thereof make a huge difference in seeing this nebula.  Would be better if it were a bit higher.

 

Once you right conditions for M8 to show its glory, M16 can be rewarding if you have enough aperture to up the magnification a liittle.  Presently it up and slightly east of Saturn.    

 

Keep working on the lagoon.  Its really worth the time.  jd


  • Ursa Minor likes this

#15 Sketcher

Sketcher

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1123
  • Joined: 29 Jun 2017
  • Loc: Under Earth's Sky

Posted 04 August 2018 - 06:58 PM

OK, folks, I think I looked at the Lagoon last night, but really can't confirm it. Lots of stars, huddled in a fairly tight area, but that's it. This was slightly below and to the right of Saturn, roughly 9:30 PM. Perhaps I'm just expecting too much, but I saw nothing that looked like what I assumed it would look like, no aura, nebulosity, fuzziness, just nothing. Without fancy filters and stuff, is that all there is to it? (I was viewing at roughly 90X.)

 

Thanks a bunch,

This is a common ocurance for all manner of observing:  Expecting to see . . .  Assuming it would look like . . .

 

It's better to expect nothing!  Make no assumptions!  Observe.  Record what is seen.  Try to be an impartial onlooker.  These are 'tricks' that artists use.  When an artist sketches a chair, they don't sketch a chair!  They sketch that which they see in front of them.  They sketch the lines and the shadings that are seen.  As soon as the artist starts sketching Syrtis Major, etc. they've 'lost it'.  They're no longer sketching what they're seeing.  They're now sketching what they know is (or should be) there.  Observers don't expect.  They observe and record whatever is seen -- nothing more -- nothing less.

 

In the absence of expectations, if "nothing" is seen, there's no disappointment.  If anything is seen, it's a pleasant surprise!

 

We live and observe under widely varying conditions -- from Las Vegas light pollution to pristine darkness and everything in between.  It's a mistake for an observer in one situation to expect to see the same thing as an observer who's in a different situation.

 

The same applies to differences in telescope apertures, magnifications, etc.  The young man observing from his city residence with a 16-inch reflecting telescope shouldn't expect to see all that the little old lady out in the middle of nowhere can see with her 3-inch refractor.  Yes, for some objects, that little old lady will actually see more!  For other objects, the young man will see more.

 

We're all on our own to see as much as we can, from where we are, with what we're using.  If we can accept the realities of our situations and work within those realities, we can be happy and productive observers.  The alternative . . . well . . . it's not so good.


  • Ursa Minor likes this

#16 Jim T

Jim T

    Mariner 2

  • *****
  • Posts: 297
  • Joined: 15 Dec 2010
  • Loc: MO

Posted 04 August 2018 - 09:19 PM

Kevin

 

If you don't have a UHC or OIII filter yet, consider getting one (esp. a 2" version).  It will easily double the amount of nebulosity seen in the Lagoon.  Nebulosity can be tricky.  Sometimes you need to add magnification to darken the background sky.  Other times I've found it necessary to reduce magnification and field of view  To me, often the nebulosity in M8 (and the Monkey Head nebula) appears easier to see in my 25x100 binos than it does in my 16" scope at 60x.  That sure changes when I flip in the OIII on the scope though.  Biggest help is to get thee to darker skies.


  • Ursa Minor likes this

#17 Adun

Adun

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2609
  • Joined: 02 Dec 2016

Posted 04 August 2018 - 09:49 PM

Ahhh M8.

 

It is my favorite DSO for observing through EAA, it's soooo very photogenic.

 

I've detected it from my bortle 8 skies with my 6" SCT. Aperture helps and an UHC-type filter (even a cheap one like mine) helps. The key to be certain whether you are observing M8 or not, is two features: there's a tight-ish group of stars with sort of a piramidal shape, and if you follow where the tip of the pyramid is pointing at, there's at least a small patch of nebulosity.

 

Check out this sketch: 

 

img2006081901_M8rev1lg.jpg

 

From my bortle 8 skies with 150mm aperture I can of course see the pyramid (sketched on the left) and the core of the nebulous patch to it's right. If I insert my (cheap) UHC-type filter, then a little more nebulosity plus the dark lane in the center becomes visible.

 

Still, it kind of makes me sad though, for visually from my city, even in my 10" dob, it's not even a ghost of it's true glory. To really observe the lagoon I need my 80mm refractor and EAA camera. M8 is fantastic, my favorite above M42 or even Carina.


  • dpastern, jcj380, Tyson M and 1 other like this

#18 Ursa Minor

Ursa Minor

    Mercury-Atlas

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 2655
  • Joined: 10 Jul 2018
  • Loc: St. Louis, Mo. USA

Posted 04 August 2018 - 10:37 PM

A UHC is definitely on my "to get" list, my biggest problem is determining what's actually within my budget. Amazon is rife with filters, from $30 to over $100, and many brands, most of which I've never heard of.



#19 Adun

Adun

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2609
  • Joined: 02 Dec 2016

Posted 04 August 2018 - 10:50 PM

A UHC is definitely on my "to get" list, my biggest problem is determining what's actually within my budget. Amazon is rife with filters, from $30 to over $100, and many brands, most of which I've never heard of.

 

The one I use is this one (~$20). Here's a lab test (by Lumicon!) of it's transmission curve. It's more of a broadband (more like Orion's "skyglow" than their Ultrablock or the DMG NPB).

 

This type of filter is useful, in my city it makes the difference between seeing and not seeing M27 or M8 with smaller scopes, and with my 10" dob it improves the view of most emission nebula.

 

Still, a true UHC narrowband is probably more useful (Ultrablock, Lumicon, or DMG NPB), and I understand the Lumicon is the best, although for me the SVBony is worth it's $20 cost.


  • Ursa Minor likes this

#20 beatlejuice

beatlejuice

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2664
  • Joined: 05 Apr 2011
  • Loc: Hamilton, ON,Canada

Posted 04 August 2018 - 10:58 PM

It's not dark enough at 9:30.  No wonder you were not able to see any nebulosity.

 

Eric


  • havasman and Redbetter like this

#21 Capn26

Capn26

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 527
  • Joined: 17 May 2018

Posted 04 August 2018 - 11:06 PM

I have a true uhc on the way, but I also currently have a uhc-e from astronomik. It’s around $69.00. So a bit cheaper. According to starman1 (Don) who needs to write a book or three, it’s a medium band. It lets in a bit more over all light than a true uhc, yet offers more filtration than a broadband. It helps a bit for sure. Especially for planetaries that are hard to find. Maybe that’s an option for you.

Edited by Capn26, 04 August 2018 - 11:07 PM.

  • Ursa Minor likes this

#22 Ursa Minor

Ursa Minor

    Mercury-Atlas

  • -----
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 2655
  • Joined: 10 Jul 2018
  • Loc: St. Louis, Mo. USA

Posted 05 August 2018 - 12:09 AM

It's not dark enough at 9:30.  No wonder you were not able to see any nebulosity.

 

Eric

Yes, that is potentially a problem, but shortly after that, Saturn disappears behind a large tree immediately to my south. Once it emerges, there's perhaps a 30 minute window before it slides behind the house, plus to my south is some sort of bad LP, that makes that position no better than looking at it earlier( (9:00-9:30). It's just the bane of the suburbs, I guess.



#23 Capn26

Capn26

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 527
  • Joined: 17 May 2018

Posted 05 August 2018 - 08:11 AM

Try again. I think under all the conditions you described, you should see it. Those are very similar to my conditions. Over a house with a bright porch light and under a low pressure sodium street light. Keep at it. And I still think you may have been off of it a bit. Possibly on trifid.
  • Ursa Minor likes this

#24 SteelStar

SteelStar

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • Posts: 316
  • Joined: 08 Nov 2009
  • Loc: Oklahoma

Posted 08 August 2018 - 07:28 PM

Here is a shot of M8 I made with my Iphone and a 6" refractor. The black & white version gives an idea of how it appears in a light polluted sky with a small scope.

Attached Thumbnails

  • M8 Lagoon nebula (2) 8-5-2018 010 (800x600).jpg
  • M8 Lagoon nebula (3) 8-5-2018 010 (800x600).jpg

  • chrysalis, Ursa Minor and Seaquel47 like this

#25 Jim1804

Jim1804

    Ranger 4

  • -----
  • Posts: 326
  • Joined: 26 May 2011
  • Loc: Raleigh-Durham NC, USA

Posted 08 August 2018 - 10:54 PM

It may be the equivalent of the Orion Nebula under dark skies, but descriptions can lead you to believe that it will be just as impressive as Orion from your front yard - not so, in my experience! Orion slaps you in the face with glowing nebulosity in just about any instrument. The Lagoon is much more subtle with moderate light pollution.
  • jcj380 and Ursa Minor like this


CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics