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New CEM60 with a very very minor issue.

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#1 scadvice

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 09:50 PM

Just to put this up front. I really like this mount. I'm keeping it. This response of their's...well...it  just sort of hits me the wrong way.

 

Anyway, twice now I had this minor problem in the RA axis. It's not a big deal other than I have to I release and readjust the release knob then the  pain of going back...re-zeroing and a star align again. The tactile feel is just not there for it to be repetitive on the RA.

 

 I e-mail them... being 'warranty careful' and not pulling the cover off without talking to them first. Did I not not give them the right details? You tell me.  

 

 

I told the tech I ran into a problem last night on my new CEM60.  Pole and a one star aligned during the move from M13 to Mars I realized the mount was not going toward the planet in the RA axis. It was way behind were it should have been (moving East). The Dec looked to be correct if the RA had been in the right position and the Target and Dec positions on the pendant confirmed so.

I did hear a very light on and off buzzing during part of the travel from the RA axis during the move and thought that was odd. Going through and checking things I found that the RA axis had lost position apparently slipping steps during the move. Once that stepper had lost steps the zero position is of course also now wrong and this was confirmed by having the mount go to zero position. It swung past were zero should have been to near 6 hrs more west.

The cause I believe was I had not released the adjustment to worm enough for it to magnetically float freely on the gear and it bound slightly during the east slewing. (I did very lightly rock the RA it as I engaged it).

 

That axis knob ends up very tight during the worm release requiring more than normal torque CW to get the axis gear to float past the worm for balancing as the worm is at times bumping on the top of the gear in some places so I'm thinking it is affecting my ability to get a proper release CCW back to the worm engagement position.

 

I see there are what appear to be adjustment screws left and right of the gear switches.  Can I get some instructions on how to do this adjustment if that will solve the problem?  Not having a schematic  I cannot problem solve it myself without removing the cover to look


I love the mount and I'm sure I'll get these little issues solved as I understand the mount in more detail.

 

 

 

Here is their response today:

 

The tech said I could back off the gear tension a little more to see whether the motor still skips steps and that a re-balancing might be necessary.

 

Then offered me a service modifying the RA and Dec boards to increase the motors torque by 30% to gain more power and avoid motor stall. they wanted about 60 bucks with shipping to do this.

 

 

Well, Well. I have brand new, two week old mount and they want me to pay them about $60 to fix a torque problem? scratchhead2.gif

 

First, I don't see torque as being my minor little issue here and second, if some are having a torque issue I would think that would come under a warranty/defect fix...assuming proper leveling, balance and using the mount within the weight specifications not to mention in the warranty period..  ( Just so you know... I only have about 16 pounds of gear on the mount)

 

All they had to do was send me a little drawing verifying those two screws I reference to... are the adjustment screws... and do I move them out more... or in more (there does appear to be a little travel available inward) Or if it is something else what to do about it.

 

But now I'm wondering about this possible torque issue popping up later.

 

Sooo...I guess the next step is to call them in the morning. I'll keep you posted.


Edited by scadvice, 22 August 2018 - 11:31 AM.


#2 petert913

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 10:01 PM

Seems if they already have a 30% improvement available for RA torque......why don't they just include this in the mount as standard, and put out a better product ?

The mount is not cheap to begin with.  Just give us the best you got !


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#3 bobzeq25

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 10:05 PM

Just to put this up front. I really like this mount. I'm keeping it. This response of their's...well...it  just sort of hits me the wrong way.

 

Anyway, twice now I had this minor problem in the RA axis. It's not a big deal other than I have to I release and readjust the release knob then the  pain of going back...re-zeroing and a star align again. The tactile feel is just not there for it to be repetitive on the RA.

 

Here is what I e-mailed iOptron Support yesterday about my little problem. The intent was to be warranty careful and not pull the cover off without talking to them first. Did I not not give them the right details? You tell me.  

 

I told the tech I ran into a problem last night on my new CEM60.  Pole and a one star aligned during the move from M13 to Mars I realized the mount was not going toward the planet in the RA axis. It was way behind were it should have been (moving East). The Dec looked to be correct if the RA had been in the right position and the Target and Dec positions on the pendant confirmed so.

 

I did hear a very light on and off buzzing during part of the travel from the RA axis during the move and thought that was odd. Going through and checking things I found that the RA axis had lost position apparently slipping steps during the move. Once that stepper had lost steps the zero position is of course also now wrong and this was confirmed by having the mount go to zero position. It swung past were zero should have been to near 6 hrs more west.

 

The cause I believe was I had not released the adjustment to worm enough for it to magnetically float freely on the gear and it bound slightly during the east slewing. (I did very lightly rock the RA it as I engaged it).

 

That axis knob ends up very tight during the worm release requiring more than normal torque CW to get the axis gear to float past the worm for balancing as the worm is at times bumping on the top of the gear in some places so I'm thinking it is affecting my ability to get a proper release CCW back to the worm engagement position.

 

I see there are what appear to be adjustment screws left and right of the gear switches.  Can I get some instructions on how to do this adjustment if that will solve the problem?  Not having a schematic  I cannot problem solve it myself without removing the cover to look

.
I love the mount and I'm sure I'll get these little issues solved as I understand the mount in more detail.

 

Here is their response today:

 

The tech said I could back off the gear tension a little more to see whether the motor still skips steps and that a re-balancing might be necessary.

Then offered me a service modifying the RA and Dec boards to increase the motors torque by 30% to gain more power and avoid motor stall. they wanted about 60 bucks with shipping to do this.

 

Well, Well. I have brand new, two week old mount and they want me to pay them about $60 to fix a torque problem? scratchhead2.gif

 

First, I don't see torque as being my minor little issue here and second, if some are having a torque issue I would think that would come under a warranty/defect fix...assuming proper leveling, balance and using the mount within the weight specifications not to mention in the warranty period..  ( Just so you know... I only have about 16 pounds of gear on the mount)

 

All they had to do was send me a little drawing verifying those two screws I reference to... are the adjustment screws... and do I move them out more... or in more (there does appear to be a little travel available inward) Or if it is something else what to do about it.

 

But now I'm wondering about this possible torque issue popping up later.

 

Sooo...I guess the next step is to call them in the morning. I'll keep you posted.

Danger.  Either something is really wrong with the mount, or you're doing something really wrong.  This is particularly worrying.

 

"That axis knob ends up very tight during the worm release requiring more than normal torque CW to get the axis gear to float past the worm for balancing"

 

You should _never_ have to turn the knob really tight.  You _very_ lightly bottom them when you go to either extreme, just to confirm they're at the end of their travel.

 

They only adjust the range over which the worm floats.  That's a function of position, not tightness.  They have no other function. 

 

The operating position is 0-3/8 turn out from _very_ lightly bottomed.  I never go more than 1/4.  It's not critical. 

 

The worm should completely release _before_ the knob is _very_ lightly bottomed at the other end.

 

The motor stalling is a pretty loud noise, not a light buzzing.  If stall occurs, you need to use the hand controller to "clear alignment data" and start over.  Errors persist.

 

The large screwlike devices either side of the knobs are not adjustments in any way whatsoever.  They're just the magnets controlling the float, the screw slots are so they can be assembled to the mount casting.  They should be snug.



#4 suvowner

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 10:17 PM

sometimes I think they read the e-mails and respond pretty quickly, without thoroughly responding to every point. I would respond with just the question about the adjustment screws and see what they say !

 

how much weight did you have on the mount ?

 

the manual recommends to do a max slew test with the mount fully loaded to check for that motor noise (stall) before going on to your alignment, and that different loads will require different degree of gears mesh adjustment. 

 

I am curious to know what those 2 other screws actually do though, so please post there response. 

 

here is the sound of mesh set too tight, at around 37 minutes

https://www.youtube....13s&frags=pl,wn


Edited by suvowner, 21 August 2018 - 10:53 PM.


#5 gotak

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Posted 21 August 2018 - 10:53 PM

sometimes I think they read the e-mails and respond pretty quickly, without thoroughly responding to every point. I would respond with just the question about the adjustment screws and see what they say !

 

how much weight did you have on the mount ?

 

the manual recommends to do a max slew test with the mount fully loaded to check for that motor noise (stall) before going on to your alignment, and that different loads will require different degree of gears mesh adjustment. 

 

I am curious to know what those 2 other screws actually do though, so please post there response. 

They do. The best way is not to write a long drawn out paragraph. Go directly to the issue. Even then it can take a few emails. And this is someone who makes his living pretty much managing engineering expectations for our customers, where I spend hours figuring out their likely reactions to wording.


Edited by gotak, 21 August 2018 - 10:53 PM.


#6 bobzeq25

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 12:00 AM

 

 

I am curious to know what those 2 other screws actually do though, so please post there response.

The large screwlike devices either side of the knobs are not adjustments in any way whatsoever.  They're just the magnets controlling the float, the screw slots are so they can be assembled to the mount casting.  They should be snug.



#7 scadvice

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 12:56 AM

Look...This post is going a different direction than I intended it to. The adjustment knob in the RA axis must be turned CW very tightly and bottom solidly out in order balance the axis.however even with major torquing at times and the worm still will slightly rub on the gear. That's likely a fixable problem.

 

Trust me on this... I'm a retired Manufacturing and applications engineer.

 

What bugs me was the tech trying to sell me a board upgrade for something that should be a free fix as a known problem.  


Edited by scadvice, 22 August 2018 - 11:32 AM.

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#8 HxPI

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 05:00 AM

Just to put this up front. I really like this mount. I'm keeping it. This response of their's...well...it  just sort of hits me the wrong way.

 

Anyway, twice now I had this minor problem in the RA axis. It's not a big deal other than I have to I release and readjust the release knob then the  pain of going back...re-zeroing and a star align again. The tactile feel is just not there for it to be repetitive on the RA.

 

Here is what I e-mailed iOptron Support yesterday about my little problem. The intent was to be warranty careful and not pull the cover off without talking to them first. Did I not not give them the right details? You tell me.  

 

I told the tech I ran into a problem last night on my new CEM60.  Pole and a one star aligned during the move from M13 to Mars I realized the mount was not going toward the planet in the RA axis. It was way behind were it should have been (moving East). The Dec looked to be correct if the RA had been in the right position and the Target and Dec positions on the pendant confirmed so.

 

I did hear a very light on and off buzzing during part of the travel from the RA axis during the move and thought that was odd. Going through and checking things I found that the RA axis had lost position apparently slipping steps during the move. Once that stepper had lost steps the zero position is of course also now wrong and this was confirmed by having the mount go to zero position. It swung past were zero should have been to near 6 hrs more west.

The cause I believe was I had not released the adjustment to worm enough for it to magnetically float freely on the gear and it bound slightly during the east slewing. (I did very lightly rock the RA it as I engaged it).

 

That axis knob ends up very tight during the worm release requiring more than normal torque CW to get the axis gear to float past the worm for balancing as the worm is at times bumping on the top of the gear in some places so I'm thinking it is affecting my ability to get a proper release CCW back to the worm engagement position.

 

I see there are what appear to be adjustment screws left and right of the gear switches.  Can I get some instructions on how to do this adjustment if that will solve the problem?  Not having a schematic  I cannot problem solve it myself without removing the cover to look

.
I love the mount and I'm sure I'll get these little issues solved as I understand the mount in more detail.

 

Here is their response today:

 

The tech said I could back off the gear tension a little more to see whether the motor still skips steps and that a re-balancing might be necessary.

Then offered me a service modifying the RA and Dec boards to increase the motors torque by 30% to gain more power and avoid motor stall. they wanted about 60 bucks with shipping to do this.

 

Well, Well. I have brand new, two week old mount and they want me to pay them about $60 to fix a torque problem? scratchhead2.gif

 

First, I don't see torque as being my minor little issue here and second, if some are having a torque issue I would think that would come under a warranty/defect fix...assuming proper leveling, balance and using the mount within the weight specifications not to mention in the warranty period..  ( Just so you know... I only have about 16 pounds of gear on the mount)

 

All they had to do was send me a little drawing verifying those two screws I reference to... are the adjustment screws... and do I move them out more... or in more (there does appear to be a little travel available inward) Or if it is something else what to do about it.

 

But now I'm wondering about this possible torque issue popping up later.

 

Sooo...I guess the next step is to call them in the morning. I'll keep you posted.

This is very interesting! From the info you provided, you are experiencing motor stall and increased motor torque would help. They should have provided the increased torque boards with your mount.

 

The rebalance part from the response is interesting and something good to know. Turning the magnetic spring knob back 1/8 to 1/4 turn usually sets it to the correct operating position. I’ve said this a 1000 times.... I hate the magnetic spring design on this mount... but it is what it is. I’ve since taken the Dr. Strangelove approach to stop worrying about it and learned to love it!

 

I’m actually interested in the motor torque upgrade. I have an older model and upgrades like theses are welcome. This doesn’t seem to be advertised on the website and there was no email about it. Thanks for sharing.

 

Ciao,

Mel



#9 HxPI

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 05:09 AM

sometimes I think they read the e-mails and respond pretty quickly, without thoroughly responding to every point. I would respond with just the question about the adjustment screws and see what they say !

 

how much weight did you have on the mount ?

 

the manual recommends to do a max slew test with the mount fully loaded to check for that motor noise (stall) before going on to your alignment, and that different loads will require different degree of gears mesh adjustment. 

 

I am curious to know what those 2 other screws actually do though, so please post there response. 

 

here is the sound of mesh set too tight, at around 37 minutes

https://www.youtube....13s&frags=pl,wn

Does the manual really recommend testing at max slew rate? ! I don’t remember ever reading that in the manual but it’s nice to know if it is in there. If it does then that validates what I have been doing on my own to make sure the mount doesn’t stall before alignment. It’s like a dance to get the mount up and running but once it’s working it’s a thing of beauty!

 

Ciao,

Mel


Edited by HxPI, 22 August 2018 - 05:14 AM.


#10 spokeshave

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 07:02 AM

Why not just write them back and ask them to send you the new board under warranty?

Tim

#11 suvowner

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 07:33 AM

Does the manual really recommend testing at max slew rate? ! I don’t remember ever reading that in the manual but it’s nice to know if it is in there. If it does then that validates what I have been doing on my own to make sure the mount doesn’t stall before alignment. It’s like a dance to get the mount up and running but once it’s working it’s a thing of beauty!

 

Ciao,

Mel

Yes page 19 I think 



#12 suvowner

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 07:38 AM

Look...This post is going a different direction than I intended it to. The adjustment knob in the RA axis must be turned CW very tightly and bottom solidly out in order balance the axis.however even with major torquing at times and the worm still will slight rub on the gear. That's likely a fixable problem.

 

Trust me on this... I'm a retired Manufacturing and applications engineer.

 

What bugs me was the tech trying to sell me a board upgrade for something that should be a free fix as a known problem.  

Makes sense, I suspect if you push back a bit that it should be offered as a free fix under warranty they would do it, but from what you are saying about knob tension it sure sounds like a mechanical issue and if you solve it there is probably no need for higher torque board.


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#13 Salty_snack

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 11:48 AM

I’d send it back to the seller. I had a cem60 with problems on the ra axis. It was equally as poorly adjusted as yours out of the box, I had to tightly unscrew the knob to get it to release without contacting the worm wheel.

I wouldn’t pay them another penny. They should be sending you a mount that works.
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#14 ChrisWhite

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 12:07 PM

Sounds like a problem. You should not have to turn the release knob CW so hard before the axis disengages.

As far as motor stall, I would ignore that confusion for now. It's either related to your primary issue or simply that the tension knobs were too tight CCW when you tried to slew.

If it's a new mount, id swap it out for a replacement and let the dealer sort out the warranty issue....

Mine works perfectly out of the box, imaging around .5" total RMS with 23lb setup at 800mm. Very happy.

Edited by ChrisWhite, 22 August 2018 - 02:17 PM.

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#15 bobzeq25

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Posted 22 August 2018 - 12:59 PM

Look...This post is going a different direction than I intended it to. The adjustment knob in the RA axis must be turned CW very tightly and bottom solidly out in order balance the axis.however even with major torquing at times and the worm still will slightly rub on the gear. That's likely a fixable problem.

 

Trust me on this... I'm a retired Manufacturing and applications engineer.

 

What bugs me was the tech trying to sell me a board upgrade for something that should be a free fix as a known problem.  

I completely agree with Salty snack and ChrisWhite.

 

If the worm does not release before the knob bottoms easily, something is wrong.

 

Turning the knob tightly is wrong.

 

The knob adjusts distance (only), and you gain very little distance when going from very lightly bottomed to tight. 

 

There should be a tolerance re disengaging the worms.  I just checked mine.  Up to 1/8 turn out from disengaged, the worm is free.  It starts to engage with the knob 1/8-1/4 turn out.

 

And that issue has utterly nothing to do with the torque of the stepper motors.  Some mounts do stall the steppers when the knob is fully engaged (mine doesn't).   The problem is made worse if people think this distance adjustment is a clutch, and tighten the knob.  The cure is to loosen it a bit.  I view 0-3/8 turn out as the usual range.

 

The board upgrade is something that's not needed on most (all?) mounts, if they're operated properly.  I don't understand why iOptron offers it, except possibly to fix operator error.  I would be annoyed that they're trying to sell you it too.


Edited by bobzeq25, 22 August 2018 - 01:15 PM.

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#16 scadvice

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 05:33 PM

OK  ... I'm up to Tech 3...LOL

 

I've now simplified my problem posted to them to this statement:

 

 

 

If I turn the RA knob to full disengage and the knob will not turn anymore. The RA gear and worm are still in contact and rub against each other.

 

 

 

Let's see where this goes...

 

I suspect if I had another 1/4 turn CW there would be no issue, it's that close.


Edited by scadvice, 24 August 2018 - 05:35 PM.

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#17 suvowner

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 05:44 PM

OK  ... I'm up to Tech 3...LOL

 

I've now simplified my problem posted to them to this statement:

 

 

 

If I turn the RA knob to full disengage and the knob will not turn anymore. The RA gear and worm are still in contact and rub against each other.

 

 

 

Let's see where this goes...

 

I suspect if I had another 1/4 turn CW there would be no issue, it's that close.

lol, I did contact them last couple days also for an issue and they are responding but not very quickly. one of the customer service reps did say that several of the techs were out on the road and response time should be better next week. 


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#18 Real14

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Posted 24 August 2018 - 06:52 PM

lol, I did contact them last couple days also for an issue and they are responding but not very quickly. one of the customer service reps did say that several of the techs were out on the road and response time should be better next week. 

 

Yes that is correct. They were not in USA. I was also waiting for some answers and Roger Rivers the CEO of iOptron USA wrote me an e-mail explaining the situation.

 

Rainer



#19 scadvice

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 11:55 AM

OK...Just a follow up on this post... iOptron sent me their work process sheet for replacing the RA worm.

 

They gave me the option of just sending it in or if I wanted to try first to fix it that was OK and they would still take it as a warranty if I was unable to do so. I pulled that axis apart (not removing the worm as per his instruction) and looked for FOD or something else out of place. There was nothing, so I reassembled by the instruction sheet. 

 

I seemed to have fixed it even though I found nothing seeming out of adjustment or place. As this was the first time I've worked on this mount, it's more than likely just I missed what was problem during disassembly and corrected the adjustment during reassembly.

 

Thanks Kevin at iOptron!

 

My mount now works perfectly. Last RMS .59


Edited by scadvice, 14 September 2018 - 11:58 AM.

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