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Proof of eternity?

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#1 CygnuS

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 11:37 PM

A Universe cannot spring from true nothingness but let's give that idea the benefit of the doubt and say it can. The very least there would have to have been is the potential for the Universe to spring into existence. Nobody would make a claim that potential is nothing......so it looks like the benefit of the doubt hit a road block pretty quick. So, either our Universe came from something or it came from potential, probability or possibility.......or a combination......none of which are nothingness. Does this prove something is eternal? 


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#2 Knasal

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 12:00 AM

Can’t start scratching my head on this till, well, at least Tuesday.

 

It’s Labor Day Weekend, man!

 imawake.gif lalalala.gif  roflmao.gif

 

Kevin


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#3 havasman

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 12:01 AM

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#4 TOMDEY

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 12:14 AM

That's well-stated, CygnuS!

 

Ever since I was a kid... my Biggest question, to whoever would listen... was, "Why is there ANYTHING?!" And, everyone would treat me like, somehow, THEY had the Meaning of Life all figured out, and all they needed to do was inform me of their magnificence...

 

So, I'd get their responses:

 

>God, of course, a-hole!

>quantum fluctuations
>the Big Bang
>a running computer

 

And, I'm still left pretty blanking confused...

 

 

My take goes something like this: >>>

Apparently, it must be Easier for there to be Somethings, rather than for there to be Absolutely Nothing. So, this, and probably other universes, spring into existence, because it's the easiest, laziest way. It would take too much effort to maintain an eternal state of absolutely nothing. So, it is those (nearly infinitesimal) fluctuations about perfect nothingness... that make up EVERYTHING comprising these infinite number of vast universes.

 

It's like the exact opposite of that blasted conservation hard-on that seems to obsess myopically-focused "environ-Mental-ists" ... as in crazy as loons... an infinite number of loony-tune loons.

 

And THAT, is the Meaning of Life!  Tom

 

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#5 jimr2

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 01:55 AM

Huh???
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#6 BQ Octantis

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 02:17 AM

A Universe cannot spring from true nothingness but let's give that idea the benefit of the doubt and say it can. The very least there would have to have been is the potential for the Universe to spring into existence. Nobody would make a claim that potential is nothing......so it looks like the benefit of the doubt hit a road block pretty quick. So, either our Universe came from something or it came from potential, probability or possibility.......or a combination......none of which are nothingness. Does this prove something is eternal? 

That you acknowledge that this is just an idea means that this discourse is only present in our collective imaginations (the by-product of a near-real time, nearly-simultaneous biochemical simulation). Try this discussion with your dog (or cat, or other higher-order animal in your reality bubble) and see where it takes you. It is only relevant to the hubris of our human "understanding" of the situation we inhabit. But it is irrelevant to the cosmos—all we can say definitively (and almost conclusively) is that it was here way longer than we were, and it'll most likely still be here way after we're gone.

 

All of our constructs of the universe and its beginnings are merely models to help us understand what we're seeing. 500 years ago, the sun was the center of the universe. 110 years ago, astronomers had exquisite pictures of the Andromeda Nebula (better than anything I can capture today!)—a planetary nebula at the edge of the universe. Tomorrow, who knows? Maybe the multiverse theory is correct, and we're inhabiting all times and realities simultaneously and endlessly—and I've already written this prose a trillion times.

 

BQ

 

"By convention sweet

and by convention bitter,

by convention hot,

by convention cold,

by convention color;

but in reality atoms and void." - Democritus

 

"All models are wong, but some are useful." -George Box

 


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#7 rekokich

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 04:26 AM

CygnuS,

I have a large, wolf-like dog with sharp eyes and a brilliant mind. In the car, she never sleeps, but stares attentively at every detail in the landscape, and barks when other cars get too close. She comunicates with sign language, growls, and gurgling noises which sound frighteningly human. At night she pays attention to tiny sounds in the darkness, and actually looks at stars. Her attention span is far longer than most people's. But, what fascinates her the most are trains. At railroad crossings, she stiffens and trembles with anticipation at flashing lights and ringing bells. Then, when diesel locomotives come thundering by, her eyes go blank, her jaw drops, she stops breathing. The sight, the deep, rumbling sound, the earthquake absorb her entire existence, as if she were face to face with a divinity.

It is obvious that her entire brain is consumed with attention. All the neurons are firing at all synapses trying to understand what is happening. Yet, if she went to the best engineering school in the world for a thousand years, she could never learn the function of a diesel locomotive, much less how it is made. It has something to do with brain size, the frontal lobes, the neocortex, the ratio between the number of neurons and body mass... She may be extremely attentive, and for a dog very bright, but she will never take notes at MIT.

It is not a matter of a mental defect or lack of interest. It is a matter of mental CAPACITY.

And then I think: my own head is also of a limited size, with a limited number of neurons and synapses, and with a limited brain to body weight ratio. Where lies a concept which I could never, ever understand even if I went to the best galactic school for a thousand years?

As it turns out, my outer limits are not too far. The dual nature of light... Particle entaglement... Quantum mechanics... The nature of force-fields... The curvature of space-time... The singularity in black holes... The universality of physical constants...

And, I am not alone. NOBODY really understands these things. We know equations, many of which were derived empirically. We can calculate probabilities with extreme accuracy. But nobody really understands why on the subatomic level things work the way they work. Nobody understands why out of completely empty space particles of matter and antimatter come into brief existence, only to disappear. Nobody understands why throughout the universe all hydrogen atoms under equal conditions absorb and emit energy at identical levels. Is it a property of matter or of "empty" space which enforces these rules?

Over the last hundred years science has reached a level which is entirely outside of human daily experience. I "understand" classical mechanics. I drop a rock, it falls on my foot, and my foot hurts. I take a long lever, and I can move a heavy object. It is outside of everyone's experience how mesons, which hold together atomic nuclei, pop into existence out of empty space, then vanish in a fraction of a milisecond, only to be (fortunately) replaced by other mesons. This happens continuously in every single atom throughout the universe. Why? How? If the process stopped for an instant, all matter would disintegrate into subatomic dust.

A little at a time, humanity seems to be approaching the upper limit of comprehension. But that is not the limit of science because we can make accurate empirical / statistical predictions even with no understanding whatsoever. My life is living proof.

You should go to phys.org and ask your questions. Scientists love to blow hot air, especially on national holidays. You will receive dozens of sophisticated "explanations" - every one a version of a model by which an intelligent person imagines something he doesn't understand. And you will find that most answers trespass into the fields of philosophy and religion.

My honest answers are as follows:

Why is there something rather than nothing?
Such a question can only be posed in a universe in which there is something.

Can a material universe spring from (apparent) nothingness?
It did.

Can a material universe spring from TRUE nothingness?
There is probably no such thing as true nothingness. The fabric of space appears to be a medium for the movement of energy, and a lattice within which essentially infinite numbers of particles spontaneously come into and out of existence. The intrinsic SHAPE of space warps straight lines in which light travels, and determines the passage of time. Nobody understands the nature of space, but after we theorize about it long enough we will begin to believe that we do.

Is possibility = probability something?
Not in the physical sense, yet it predicts quantum events and large scale events very well.

Is there anything which is eternal?
I don't know.
If there were it would have to lie outside this universe which had a beginning. So, it would have to be a multiverse, or the Creator.
Time within the event horizon of a black hole presumably stands still. But black holes themselves had a beginning and have an end when they evaporate by Hawking radiation, so they are not eternal.

Thanks for the interesting questions. I didn't watch TV for a couple of hours. Please get back to us with phys.org answers.

Rudy


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#8 Jeff B1

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 10:08 AM

Sometimes I think about being dead and wonder if even my mind thought now will just end.  I was dead before conception, so I wonder if I had a previous life……I do not remember it at any rate.  But by the fast that I now think and comprehend death; does that make the Universe closed?  Hum, now that makes no sense what so ever…. Getting old makes one consider the end and wonder how it will be. confused1.gif

 

Maybe it is all some kind of dream and we are drifting through a separate plane of existence.  After all I can see with my eyes, hear with ears,  smell stuff, taste stuff; get buzzed after a few shots of Moonshine; but, I cannot see or hear, taste, small or get buzzed in my thoughts, even though I think I can. 


Edited by Jeff B1, 02 September 2018 - 10:14 AM.


#9 BQ Octantis

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 06:51 PM

I was out shooting the sky again last night. While my camera counted incoming photons from Saturn and Mars (200 seconds per frame), I wandered out to the center of my backyard to behold the spectacle that is the Milky Way. Living on the Tropic of Capricorn, the core of the Milky Way is essentially at zenith just after sunset this time of year. I first saw (and captured) it in this configuration last year from a Bortle 1 location, and it was downright spiritual. As I observed it for the rest of the year, I yearned to understand what I was seeing, and I spent a fair bit of time learning its structure (and even published my learnings in an opera house guide to the galaxy). It's the largest structure that we can actually translate what we see into what we know: the bright bulge of the core, the bright Centaurus arm swinging across in front of us and into Alpha Centauri, and the dull (by comparison) Perseus arm swinging around from the far side of the core all the way around us (perhaps to cradle us and protect our solar system from intergalactic space). And then set it all in motion, just by remembering that Alpha Centauri is coming toward us. A galactic simulation.

 

One of the difficulties I had was visualizing the orientation of the solar system plane relative to the galactic plane. Having figured out the SCP, I tried using that as a reference—and I got as far as calculating the angles. But no satisfactory perceptual synthesis.

 

Last night, as I stared up at the core, I switched to marveling at the ecliptic being clearly marked by Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars (which I had captured and posted on 12 August). As I thought about the right-hand rule, I realized that all the planets are marching along that line toward the east, just as the whole sky marches westward as a testament to our orbiting east. Having just shot Venus, I know it's a waning crescent, and its march eastward in its orbit now means its swinging westward back toward the Sun from our perspective. Suddenly, I found myself in a live solar system simulator, and I could actually simulate the planets' movement, our movement, and the sky's movement. But with Saturn and the core both at zenith, suddenly the two simulations in my head connected…the galaxy in its full movement, and the solar system in its movement. I almost passed out from the epiphany. I called my son out and showed him both planes and created the same combined simulation in his mind. He simply replied, "And they form an 'X'." Oh to be 12 again.

 

Beyond this structure, we're limited to interpreting data and simulating it in our heads because there are no literal sensory inputs. But as your question pertains to what happened before the universe, it is even outside the realm of physics—the laws of physics can only tell you what happened starting 10-36 seconds after the universe came into existence. Consult your local priest. Or guru. Or imam. Or better yet, post your question on Quora—there's already a serious answer there by a theoretical cosmologist on the matter. And literally a page with your question—with my favorite answer from George Davros, who posits "Smokes Weeeeeed" as his ethos.

 

BQ


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#10 Astroman007

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 07:02 PM

A Universe cannot spring from true nothingness but let's give that idea the benefit of the doubt and say it can. The very least there would have to have been is the potential for the Universe to spring into existence. Nobody would make a claim that potential is nothing......so it looks like the benefit of the doubt hit a road block pretty quick. So, either our Universe came from something or it came from potential, probability or possibility.......or a combination......none of which are nothingness. Does this prove something is eternal? 

Such a shameless rip-off of precisely what I have been saying here for the past week. You could at least give me credit!



#11 BQ Octantis

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 07:14 PM

Sometimes I think about being dead and wonder if even my mind thought now will just end.  I was dead before conception, so I wonder if I had a previous life……I do not remember it at any rate.  But by the fast that I now think and comprehend death; does that make the Universe closed?  Hum, now that makes no sense what so ever…. Getting old makes one consider the end and wonder how it will be. confused1.gif

 

Maybe it is all some kind of dream and we are drifting through a separate plane of existence.  After all I can see with my eyes, hear with ears,  smell stuff, taste stuff; get buzzed after a few shots of Moonshine; but, I cannot see or hear, taste, small or get buzzed in my thoughts, even though I think I can. 

I'm going to have to quote my dad on this one. He was a very long-lived quadriplegic, and when he had his heart attack, the inevitable end was very clearly on the horizon. The VA wanted to dissect his body when he went, and I was all for it (what other use does >>40 years in a wheelchair serve?). I posed their request to my dad, and he said "Do what you want…when you're dead, you're dead."

 

My mom would have none of it.

 

BQ

"Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo." -Epicurean epitaph


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#12 Michael Covington

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 07:22 PM

A Universe cannot spring from true nothingness but let's give that idea the benefit of the doubt and say it can. The very least there would have to have been is the potential for the Universe to spring into existence. Nobody would make a claim that potential is nothing......so it looks like the benefit of the doubt hit a road block pretty quick. So, either our Universe came from something or it came from potential, probability or possibility.......or a combination......none of which are nothingness. Does this prove something is eternal? 

The literature on this goes back at least to St. Augustine (5th Century).  There's a lot to read.


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#13 llanitedave

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 08:31 PM

A Universe cannot spring from true nothingness but let's give that idea the benefit of the doubt and say it can. The very least there would have to have been is the potential for the Universe to spring into existence. Nobody would make a claim that potential is nothing......so it looks like the benefit of the doubt hit a road block pretty quick. So, either our Universe came from something or it came from potential, probability or possibility.......or a combination......none of which are nothingness. Does this prove something is eternal? 

No.  Not if by "eternity" you mean continual, never-ending time.  How about this:  General Relativity says that time began with the creation of the Universe.  So whatever may have existed prior to the cosmos we live in, it wasn't embedded in cosmic time.  Even if there are an infinity of other times that don't intersect with our own, you can't call any of it eternal, because there's that discontinuity between any time system and every other.  The concept of past, present, and future aren't meaningful in that context.


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#14 Astroman007

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 11:23 PM

 General Relativity says that time began with the creation of the Universe.

The universe was created (abacadabra'd into existence by the Flying Spaghetti Monster) now, was it?


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#15 CygnuS

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Posted 02 September 2018 - 11:35 PM

Wow! There sure are some well informed deep thinkers here on CN. I appreciate all your thoughts, facts and opinions. Rudy's Post # 7 (and what a post it was!!) asks "Can a material universe spring from (apparent) nothingness?" and then answers "It did." 

It was a good point especially after  he continued by stating "there is probably no such thing as true nothingness". 

The conclusion I drew was that the Universe had to come from apparent nothingness and not true nothingness. Rudy is clearly a million times smarter than me and I think he's on to something. 

Now if we can show that apparent nothingness is not eternal....



#16 Jeff B1

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 06:01 AM

I'm going to have to quote my dad on this one. He was a very long-lived quadriplegic, and when he had his heart attack, the inevitable end was very clearly on the horizon. The VA wanted to dissect his body when he went, and I was all for it (what other use does >>40 years in a wheelchair serve?). I posed their request to my dad, and he said "Do what you want…when you're dead, you're dead."

 

My mom would have none of it.

 

BQ

"Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo." -Epicurean epitaph

Our body is mostly water with some slimy materials to keep it in check.  The brain is water as well with some insulating materials to keep the neurons signaling with each other.  Our thoughts use these materials in some way we have little understanding of – but to each of us our thoughts are real.  From our viewpoint modern computers seem to have more capacity and speed that human brains; however, modern computers are not even in the test phase compared to the human brain thought processes.  We understand little of us.


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#17 BQ Octantis

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 06:11 AM

Our body is mostly water with some slimy materials to keep it in check.  The brain is water as well with some insulating materials to keep the neurons signaling with each other.  Our thoughts use these materials in some way we have little understanding of – but to each of us our thoughts are real.  From our viewpoint modern computers seem to have more capacity and speed that human brains; however, modern computers are not even in the test phase compared to the human brain thought processes.  We understand little of us.

True dat! Per Descartes, "Cogito ergo sum." My center of the universe is the most important to me. Curiously enough, I'm the only constant in my life—I'm the only one that shows up everywhere I go! But will I miss myself when I'm gone? Probably not…

 

I fret only at the fact that each of these slimy sacks of neurons you reference has the capacity to hold the entire universe within—eternity and all. Indeed, but for what I referenced above regarding the Milky Way, the rest is only contained within. A sack with all the dog brains in the world could do no better. And in the end? Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. What is/was the point of all this intelligent, self-realizing stardust?


Edited by BQ Octantis, 03 September 2018 - 06:13 AM.

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#18 Jeff B1

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 07:44 AM

True dat! Per Descartes, "Cogito ergo sum." My center of the universe is the most important to me. Curiously enough, I'm the only constant in my life—I'm the only one that shows up everywhere I go! But will I miss myself when I'm gone? Probably not…

 

I fret only at the fact that each of these slimy sacks of neurons you reference has the capacity to hold the entire universe within—eternity and all. Indeed, but for what I referenced above regarding the Milky Way, the rest is only contained within. A sack with all the dog brains in the world could do no better. And in the end? Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. What is/was the point of all this intelligent, self-realizing stardust?

Can't say; I'm still thinking about it...….



#19 Astroman007

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 10:20 AM

I regard the human body as a naturally developed (like a Von Neumann Machine) highly advanced robot, controlled by the brain, a naturally developed and highly advanced computer.



#20 Jeff B1

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 10:44 AM

I regard the human body as a naturally developed (like a Von Neumann Machine) highly advanced robot, controlled by the brain, a naturally developed and highly advanced computer.

Used to see them on Star Trek :)



#21 MG1692

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 10:58 AM

A Universe cannot spring from true nothingness but let's give that idea the benefit of the doubt and say it can. The very least there would have to have been is the potential for the Universe to spring into existence. Nobody would make a claim that potential is nothing......so it looks like the benefit of the doubt hit a road block pretty quick. So, either our Universe came from something or it came from potential, probability or possibility.......or a combination......none of which are nothingness. Does this prove something is eternal? 

42


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#22 CygnuS

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 12:21 PM

The literature on this goes back at least to St. Augustine (5th Century).  There's a lot to read.

And we still haven't figured it out. That's pretty amazing considering all the things we have figured out since the 5th Century. Since we never will know I probably shouldn't spend as much time thinking about it as I do. I wish it wasn't so much fun contemplating this kind of stuff. If I wasn't spending so much time with it I would have more time for the important things in life, like watching old reruns of Jerry Springer. 


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#23 brentwood

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 12:47 PM

Sometimes I sit and ponder the mysteries of Time Space and the Other, and sometimes I just sit!


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#24 brentwood

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 12:55 PM

Which made me think.... 

In my post above, I was going to say Time Space and God, but realised that might contravene the TOS, so I stuck in the 'Other'.  But was if there were an 'Other'?  Something of which we have NO knowledge.

We know we have 'Space' which includes everything in it, matter, energy, dark matter, dark energy etc. We also know, or at least think we know that there is Time. But what if there were 'something else' unknown to as as the third dimension is unknown to a 'Flatlander' or that area on the Earth that is north of the North Pole?  Hmmmm? 

I think I'll go and have a sit!



#25 Jeff B1

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Posted 03 September 2018 - 12:57 PM

Jerry Springer  lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif undecided.gif




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