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Proof of eternity?

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#276 TOMDEY

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 10:48 AM

Not being a scientist, but interested in science, I had to do some studying-up on terminology, but the term "stochastic" seems to refer to a subject of study for which the closer you get to it, the less you are able to know about it.  Seems like eternity, the beginnings and endings of "time," and related concepts are things of that nature.  This causes the subject matter for discussion to turn to the degree of certainty in knowing the answers, which leads in turn to questions of epistemology (how do we "know" something), and ultimately the origins of our inquiries in human psychology and motivation.  Which then turns into a tertiary Ping-Pong match between which came first - the material brain and its motivations rooted in a combination of genetics and environment, or the data the brain comes to contain and the logical conclusions it is able to reach.  

 

Would it be fair to say that stochastic questions necessarily become anthropological questions?

 

(By the way I found a used copy of Root-Bernstein on ebay.  Looking forward to reading it).

Cool! And I just now ordered another used copy via AbeBooks.  My old one, which I had bought new, when it 1st came out... is so beat up, it is falling apart!  Nother good one is "Cosmic Discovery" by Martin Harwit.    Tom



#277 CygnuS

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 11:38 AM

I just opened the mailbox and pulled out the February Sky & Telescope. The cover story is "What came before the Big Bang?". Cool coincidence. I haven't read the story yet but skimmed through it. The last paragraph on page 21 uses the words "infinite, pre-existing physical reality" as a possibility. I can't imagine a scenario where that reality doesn't exist. Answering that age-old question "Why is there something rather than nothing?" may forever be beyond us....but then again.....underestimating science is never good policy. Thanks to everyone who has contributed here. It goes to show you what can happen when you put a below average guy in a room full of geniuses and allow him to ask a question. 


Edited by CygnuS, 19 December 2018 - 11:44 AM.

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#278 CygnuS

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 11:56 AM

Sooner or later, entropy gonna git it.

More LOL....I hope you're wrong about entropy getting it but the participants have done a great job of policing each other. People (myself included) have been stepping backwards when it has been pointed out that they were approaching the line. We might not make it to infinity but 12 pages is pretty impressive. Thanks to everybody for making it possible.


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#279 llanitedave

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 06:32 PM

I just opened the mailbox and pulled out the February Sky & Telescope. The cover story is "What came before the Big Bang?". Cool coincidence. I haven't read the story yet but skimmed through it. The last paragraph on page 21 uses the words "infinite, pre-existing physical reality" as a possibility. I can't imagine a scenario where that reality doesn't exist. Answering that age-old question "Why is there something rather than nothing?" may forever be beyond us....but then again.....underestimating science is never good policy. Thanks to everyone who has contributed here. It goes to show you what can happen when you put a below average guy in a room full of geniuses and allow him to ask a question. 

I can't imagine it either -- but that doesn't mean I believe in it.

 

One thing I've learned not to trust is my own imagination.  It's motivational and inspirational, but it's not conclusional.


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#280 petrus45

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 06:35 PM

Yes I think it doesn’t always have to go the direction of devolving into a theory of knowledge and then getting bogged down with not being able to know anything but subjectivity. Besides, that’s so 90s.

What about this idea about eternity: At the Big Bang matter was compressed into a point of infinite mass. General relativity tells us time runs relatively “slower” near a large mass. Can we then deduce that from the frame of referenxe of T=0, at a point of INFINITE Mass, that time too was infinitely “slow” relatively speaking? Could the entire infinite history of the universe already have happened before you if you were an imaginary being capable of existing In the frame of reference of the moment and space of the Big Bang?

#281 petrus45

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 07:01 PM

Or do I have it backward, and would the passage of time slow relatively to zero on a point of infinite mass? In that case, immediately before the Big Bang time actually elapsed at a rate of zero. In that event time actually did “start” from zero.
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#282 John Miele

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Posted 31 December 2018 - 06:20 PM

Have any of you ever read "The Nine Billion Names of God" by Clark? I was having a blast reading this thread and trying to keep up with the plethora of wonderful ideas and arguments being presented. Then I began to wonder if anyone here actually answers the question beyond contention if the same fate will befall us all as it did in the story...please...stop all discussion immediately...lol!

 

Happy New Year to you all!

 

And now back to the intelligent conversations...



#283 davidpitre

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 08:09 PM

 
  At the Big Bang matter was compressed into a point of infinite mass.  

This is an often spoken assumption, but not necessarily true. There are various other scenarios.  



#284 Mister T

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 09:30 AM

This is an often spoken assumption, but not necessarily true. There are various other scenarios.  

I believe that the equations point toward infinite density not necessarily a point of infinite mass.



#285 davidpitre

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 09:11 PM

I assumed Petrus meant infinite density, but what I was getting at was that there are various valid scenarios that do not require a singularity. While the Big Bang occurred in  a state of extreme density, general relativity can not tell us about the earliest state where a singularity is approached. 



#286 CygnuS

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Posted 09 October 2019 - 04:59 PM

Here's a great quote by Fred Schaaf on page 45 of October's Sky&Telescope in his piece "Eternity Tonight".

"Does eternity really exist? Well, some physicists challenge the reality of time. Surely eternity cannot exist nor have meaning without the productions of time. And, conversely, eternity must be needed - or in some cases even longed for by all the "productions of time": by planets, stars, galaxies...and especially human beings."



#287 BillP

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Posted 11 October 2019 - 01:06 PM

Surely eternity cannot exist nor have meaning without the productions of time.

 

Not sure I agree with that completely.  Yes having "productions of time" where things are transitory and not-eternal by nature would indeed give better contextual meaning for eternity within frames that contain time (even though that eternity may remain conceptual and not actual in time-based frames).  However, I can visualize a universe without a time component and eternal in nature, and as such do not feel eternity and time need to coexist for them to individually exist within a given frame/universe.


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#288 CygnuS

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:05 PM

It's making my head spin. To eternity,  time is insignificant and non-essential......so much so, that eternity could claim that time doesn't even exist. Yet humans claim it does since we see us age and other things like galaxies evolve. To time, eternity can't exist for If it did time would not have a beginning or end and wouldn't exist without them but since time does exist it could make the claim that eternity is impossible. 


Edited by CygnuS, 12 October 2019 - 10:06 PM.

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#289 llanitedave

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Posted 12 October 2019 - 10:11 PM

 

"Does eternity really exist? Well, some physicists challenge the reality of time.

Do they get paid by the hour, week, biweekly, or month?


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#290 CygnuS

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 12:38 AM

Do they get paid by the hour, week, biweekly, or month?

Great point. How would their boss even know how long they worked if there was no time?  Punching a timeclock would be tough without time. And the time would never come for them to get paid. Even if it did, where would they find time to spend all that money?


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#291 Joe1950

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 01:11 AM

Eternity does exist. My spouse has been potting me through heck for an eternity. crazy.gif

 

 

But seriously, and I can be wrong and am always wrong according to her, I don’t know how concepts such as eternities and infinities can fall within the definition of science. For science you need data. To get data you must measure something. It would take an eternity to measure an infinity!  scratchhead2.gif

 

Since by their very nature, infinite space, time or anything else cannot be measured, they do not fall within the testability requirement of the scientific method.

 

Those concepts are mathematical constructs, but that’s where it ends. And if anyone disagrees, I’ll argue until the end of time, if I have to!

 

Not really. Just my simple minded opinion. So don’t anyone get their drawers in a bunch.


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#292 Jim_V

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 09:48 AM

I have not read the complete thread, I just jumped into it here, to comment at this point in time.

 

So relatively speaking, how does the earlier portion of this thread exist to me? I can look back and see it, and read (if I so choose) to how it evolved to this point in time. Yet that does not answer it's beginning. 

 

Prior to the question which started this thread, was there a before? If there was, what was it?

 

Is the above an analogy to the universe? 

 

One postulation I have had, in regards to the birth of our universe has been that our universe, ( at least to me) must behave as what I observe in everyday life.The rules which govern the universe, must ultimately govern the rules I exist under. So when I follow the mathematics of the universe ( cheaping out here people) I note that in two major instances the equations stop ( again being lazy using the term stop) at certain points. 

First at the "big bang" ( or what ever modules of language you choose from to describe the beginning) and at the event horizon of a Black Hole. 

 

Since I am to the core, disproportionately lazy on long-weekends, and I wish to accomplish other task and not link my ideas into a cohesive answer;  I'll just post a link to an article ( one of many on the subject but this is a clean and simple one)  which to me holds the ultimate answer.

 

https://www.technolo...-a-black-hole/ 


Edited by Jim_V, 13 October 2019 - 09:52 AM.

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#293 llanitedave

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:37 AM

Great point. How would their boss even know how long they worked if there was no time?  Punching a timeclock would be tough without time. And the time would never come for them to get paid. Even if it did, where would they find time to spend all that money?

Now THERE are some first world problems for you!



#294 llanitedave

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 10:47 AM

Eternity does exist. My spouse has been potting me through heck for an eternity. crazy.gif

 

 

But seriously, and I can be wrong and am always wrong according to her, I don’t know how concepts such as eternities and infinities can fall within the definition of science. For science you need data. To get data you must measure something. It would take an eternity to measure an infinity!  scratchhead2.gif

 

Since by their very nature, infinite space, time or anything else cannot be measured, they do not fall within the testability requirement of the scientific method.

 

Those concepts are mathematical constructs, but that’s where it ends. And if anyone disagrees, I’ll argue until the end of time, if I have to!

 

Not really. Just my simple minded opinion. So don’t anyone get their drawers in a bunch.

And really, are the concepts of eternity and infinity even necessary for cosmology?  We know the age of the universe is not infinite, it's just very, very old.  We know it won't last into eternity, it will simply get much, much older.  Quantum theory tells us things can't get infinitely small, but they can be really, really tiny.  Things can't go infinitely fast, there's a cosmic speed limit.

 

So infinity, as you said, is a mathematical construct -- it's a limit for the convenience of calculation.  It just symbolizes a background that's larger than our scope of measurement.


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#295 CygnuS

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Posted 13 October 2019 - 01:37 PM

 

 

Since by their very nature, infinite space, time or anything else cannot be measured, they do not fall within the testability requirement of the scientific method.

 

 

Of course you're absolutely right. The sad thing for scientists is that things like that make philosophy sound more exciting than science. 


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#296 bobhen

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 06:30 AM

Of course you're absolutely right. The sad thing for scientists is that things like that make philosophy sound more exciting than science. 

That’s because “philosophy” and “belief systems” don’t require facts or proof. Any philosophy or belief system that is proposed that aligns itself with human desires or wishes or what humans “want” to be true rather than “what is true” is going to sound more exciting or accepting to human ears – even if it is complete bunk.

 

Bob


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#297 CygnuS

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 05:19 PM

That is true. Philosophy and imagination can be more entertaining because they dont have to go by the same restrictive rules that science does. They are less dependable when it comes to stating facts but enjoy the advantage of having no limits. Anything without limits is more exciting than something with boundries. That is why a Star Wars movie will always sell better than a science documentary. 


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#298 Joe1950

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 05:52 PM

Without any known physical properties, time may be an illusion, caused by entropy and further refined by the brain. So when we are gone, perhaps time is also.

 

But, sans the measurement capability, does time exist, say for a cat? Do they think of time anywhere close to the way we do? They recall past events since they learn from experience. But are the past and future actually part of their cognition? 

 

So without any real understanding of what time is, if anything at all, it’s difficult to define a start or finish of time. Further, within the framework of physics, the past, present and future have the same validity of existence. And, without time as a key ingredient, much of physics is nonsensical since it appears in most physical equations.

 

So, I’m totally confused. 



#299 Crow Haven

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 07:37 PM

Cats, as with crows, live in the time called now.


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#300 Joe1950

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Posted 14 October 2019 - 07:57 PM

... and they are better off for it!


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