Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Starkeeper Voyager Software

  • Please log in to reply
269 replies to this topic

#1 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 27 November 2018 - 09:05 PM

Hey imaging friends

 

Came across this software today:

 

https://software.sta...ex.php/voyager/

 

I downloaded the Demo and loaded up this YouTube video (released 3 days ago) to help me walk through the software. One of the things I do not like about SGP, is its focusing. This seems like a pretty strong replacement for SGP, that can also interface with SkyX and Maxim. I would personally use this to interface with SkyX to automate it. While I know some people use CCD Commander and CCD Auto Pilot to do the same, this software has a much more modern UI that is very intuitive to use. 

 

Another wonderful thing, is that the license for it is 69 Euros. Far cheaper than CCD Auto Pilot, and a bit cheaper than CCD Commander.

 

Anyhow, has anyone here had some recent run-time with this software? Given the changes they have in the change log, if your usage of it was more than about 3 months ago, that feedback is not likely to be of much validity - although I would still like to hear it. 


  • APshooter likes this

#2 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 28 November 2018 - 05:53 AM

I am taking that as a no. lol.gif

 

I have gone through Diego's video, and played with the software enough that I will give this a whirl the next time I have some clear skies, which should be right around New Moon. After working with the Demo here is what I have learned:

 

  • The Sequence builder in this Software is almost identical to that of SGP. The only real difference is the granularity you can set things to per sequence (without needing to go change your profile, and apply profile, in the SGP model). 
  • The standard sequence interface does not allow for multiple targets in a single sequence but that is more of a paradigm difference. In this case you would build multiple sequences, then use the DragScript editor to schedule them. 
  • Speaking of the DragScript editor - this is very powerful, and very easy to use once you dig in and play with it. You can fully automate an entire observatory with this, by dragging and dropping things. Very cool design. No coding needed. Likewise you can run multiple sequences with using one of the drag and drop options they have (Sequence). Nothing more.
  • Before I get into anything else - this software will allow you to either use its own AI/ML based focusing algorithm, or you can use Focus Max, @focus2, @focus3, or Maxim. You get the freedom to choose. That is pretty cool. SGP forces you to use their inefficient and dated focusing algorithm that wastes imaging time. I plan to try the built in focusing, but being able to use @focus3, which is blazingly fast and accurate, has me pretty happy.
  • Flats -- one of the pet peeves I have with SGP is that I have to tell it what brightness to set my panel to, what exposure time per filter (via the wizard) and both of those are static. If they dont work for you, for whatever reason, when you go to take your flats - you wasted time and have crummy flats. In this software you build a flats sequence that accepts the same values you would tell the SGP wizard, but it runs them real time, and checks that your flats are in the ADU range of tolerance that you wanted them to be. Big, big win. It can also change the panel brightness without you being around. wink.gif I need to test this live, which I plan to do tomorrow.
  • Direct integration of the software with CDC and SkyX for planetariums. No longer do you need to copy and paste something from one program to another. You can do object lookup directly from Voyager, for these. It does not seem to natively support Stellarium yet. Perhaps that is coming in the future. 
  • For those that use weather systems, one of the big downfalls of SGP is that while it can save your equipment, it cannot be made to resume something or have some deep logic for what to do in case of passing weather events. This has full integration with weather. You can tell it to pause, resume, and flat out exit if you wish. It can wait, check, and resume if conditions improve, etc. All of that is available in the DragScript editor as well, which will let you get very specific and granular in terms of what you want it to do, when, for how long, etc. This would probably take some time to get dialed in just right, but having that capability is pretty cool.

This is SGP on steroids. I highly recommend folks snag the free demo and give it a whirl. Watch Diego's video as well. He gives some pretty cool insight to the software. If there is one downfall that Leo, their Dev openly admits, all of their help files and videos are in Italian and not English. While some of you reading this likely can speak Italian fluently (bonus reason to try this) for the English crowd, we are a bit behind the curve.

 

The cost for this is pretty good as well. The licence to use the software beyond the 45 trial mode (note Demo mode will work indefinitely, but has duration limitations on it) is 69 Euros. That is cheaper than SGP.

 

Here is a quick and dirty screenshot set of the Sequence builder (it is going to look pretty familiar to folks), the Flats Sequence builder (which I am over the moon about) and a quick and dirty script I built myself in the DragScript editor after using the software for all of one hour.

 

Voy_Seq.JPG

 

Voy_Flat.JPG

 

Voy_Script.JPG

 

More to come after using this software under live sky conditions. But folks should be optimistic about this, especially at its price point. 

 

 


  • dragracingdan, mike8888 and FlankerOneTwo like this

#3 Goofi

Goofi

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 8137
  • Joined: 03 May 2013
  • Loc: Coastal Southern California

Posted 28 November 2018 - 08:13 AM

Nice write up and from what you've shared it looks pretty good and worth exploring.


  • rockstarbill likes this

#4 JukkaP

JukkaP

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 529
  • Joined: 14 Aug 2016

Posted 28 November 2018 - 01:21 PM

Thanks for sharing! I give this a go.
  • rockstarbill likes this

#5 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 28 November 2018 - 04:06 PM

Thanks guys. More to come once I get some real time under the sky with it. I love that you can do a quick sequence with a single target very easily, or switch to the DragScript section to do more elaborate sequence control rather easily. The focusing flexibility, intelligent guiding robot, and solid flats sequencing has me pretty excited.

I need to refine the scripts I made a little, but it should be good enough to test out.

#6 JukkaP

JukkaP

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 529
  • Joined: 14 Aug 2016

Posted 28 November 2018 - 04:41 PM

I tested this quickly on my observatory laptop. Seems to run smoothly. The interface is super clean and fun to use. That cant be said of SGP :)...

Allmost had acident, as the program wants to park to home position. I have set custom park position to eqmod. I think there must be section for this, but didnt have time to look for it.

Waiting to get my new filter wheel and asi 183. This looks like good alternative to SGP. I dont like the old looking interface of SGP.
  • rockstarbill likes this

#7 Koradox

Koradox

    Vostok 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 109
  • Joined: 16 Jun 2015
  • Loc: S. San Francisco, CA, USA

Posted 28 November 2018 - 06:08 PM

Thanks for sharing this. Will be following. I am playing with the trial of CCDAP right now specifically to be able to use with @focus 3 and theskyx, but the interface leave a bit to be desired coming from SGP, for me at least. Look forward to reading about yours and other experiences and giving a whirl myself.

Tom

#8 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 28 November 2018 - 06:10 PM

Thanks for sharing this. Will be following. I am playing with the trial of CCDAP right now specifically to be able to use with @focus 3 and theskyx, but the interface leave a bit to be desired coming from SGP, for me at least. Look forward to reading about yours and other experiences and giving a whirl myself.

Tom


This was a breath of fresh air after my trial of CCDAP. I was just not a fan of the interface. I'm sure it works well though, lots of folks like it.

#9 lucam

lucam

    Messenger

  • -----
  • Posts: 411
  • Joined: 09 Oct 2017
  • Loc: Upstate NY, USA

Posted 28 November 2018 - 07:02 PM

Thanks Bill, that looks very interesting. I am Italian, so that’s a bonus :)

I will download the trial version and play with it. I have had some issues with SGP crashes recently that have been a bit unsettling and have been curious about SkyX with some automation.

Is there an equivalent feature to the Framing and Mosaic tool in Voyager?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  • rockstarbill likes this

#10 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 28 November 2018 - 07:32 PM

Well, that is a huge bonus. I cannot read the instructions, for obvious reasons, so when I run into issues it's hard to tell if I configured something right or not. Here is where I am at with testing:

 

- Flats Sequence: Throws an exception almost immediately after setting the panel brightness. (NullRef). Sent this to the dev, as its likely a bug. This exception kills the sequence.

- Looking up Objects: Throws the same exception, although the lookup does complete and the data is usable.

- Trying darks and bias frames: Seems to want me to have a telescope connected. Going to try with a simulator. 

 

As for Framing and Mosaic Wizard, I have yet to find anything. If you do -- let me know. 

 

EDIT: All of the exceptions went away as soon as I connected a Telescope Simulator. grin.gif

 

The software cannot read the Speed or Readout Speed of the FLI camera in SkyX. It can query the filters just fine though. 


Edited by rockstarbill, 28 November 2018 - 07:56 PM.


#11 AtmosFearIC

AtmosFearIC

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 910
  • Joined: 10 Dec 2015
  • Loc: Melbourne

Posted 28 November 2018 - 08:45 PM

Does it allow the import of observing lists or something of that ilk?

As someone that does large mosaics the big bonus of SGP is that is has ways of importing observing/target lists. I’ve found a way of converting target lists from TSX CSV files into one that can be imported into SGP. Easy way of adding 40-50 targets.

CCDAP did this very well as it was able to download mosaic frames directly from TSX but I found is VERY clunky where I lost 2-3 hours of imaging with 60s exposures.

#12 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 28 November 2018 - 09:02 PM

Does it allow the import of observing lists or something of that ilk?

As someone that does large mosaics the big bonus of SGP is that is has ways of importing observing/target lists. I’ve found a way of converting target lists from TSX CSV files into one that can be imported into SGP. Easy way of adding 40-50 targets.

CCDAP did this very well as it was able to download mosaic frames directly from TSX but I found is VERY clunky where I lost 2-3 hours of imaging with 60s exposures.

I do not see anything in the software that would lead me to believe it has that capability at the moment. I personally do not do this, so your best bet would be to install the demo and test it out. 

 

Edit: I just opened SGP and found its import targets capability. This does not have that in any place I can find it. 


Edited by rockstarbill, 28 November 2018 - 09:04 PM.


#13 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 28 November 2018 - 09:27 PM

Updates:

  • The Flats Sequencer does not seem to automatically adjust the light panel in the event that it is too bright. So you will want the Initial Brightness level to be set to something in the ballpark for that particular filter. 
  • The Flats Sequencer will change the exposure time of the flats completely unattended in order to meet the % of error you allow. It can change this both upward and downward. 
  • The Main Sequencer, can do darks and bias for you, but you must have a telescope/mount connected to it. I found that using the ASCOM Mount/Telescope .NET Simulator worked perfectly fine to allow for this, in the event you have a Dark/Bias session planned and do not have your mount connected. I passed this along to the Dev. There should be a flag allowed for calibration frames only, that allows for them to be taken with no mount connected. The same caveat applies for the Flats Sequencer. It will throw an exception if you do not have a mount/telescope connected, same workaround will resolve it.
  • FLI cameras may have an issue with querying the Readout Speed, for use in Voyager, if you are connected to SkyX. I do not have Maxim to test that, and as far as I am aware there is no FLI ASCOM driver, other than the Kepler product driver. In this case you would need to use the slow readout speed for all operations. I passed this along to the Dev as well. In this test I used a FLI ML16200 camera.
  • The object querying, via the integration with SkyX's Planetarium, will throw an exception, but will return the data you asked to look up, in the event that you do not have a Telescope/Mount connected (see a theme here?). The same simulator workaround will solve this problem. 

 

That is all I have for now, as I cannot run a legit sequence due to weather. 


Edited by rockstarbill, 28 November 2018 - 09:28 PM.


#14 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 28 November 2018 - 10:00 PM

Small Update:

  • QSI Native Mode support in Voyager is lovely. You can get the readout speed, and gain settings and set them as you wish and the camera does as you ask it. Very nice. You are told you have to manually set your filters though. No biggie, IMO.
  • QSI in SkyX has the same problem the FLI camera does, where it cannot query the readout speed at all, nor the gain settings. This seems to be a SkyX integration problem, based on the experience with the FLI camera as well.

I do not have ASCOM based cameras, like the QHY or ASI ones to test, so I guess it will be interesting to see how much control you have of those. 


Edited by rockstarbill, 28 November 2018 - 10:03 PM.


#15 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 29 November 2018 - 10:39 PM

Update again:

  • The SkyX issue is easily resolvable. I passed the fix onto the dev, with the help of Ken Sturrock. This fix should work for the vast majority of X2 plugins, however the QSI X2 plugin apparently does not report back its settings as expected and other cameras may not as well. This would be an issue with the X2 plugin though, and not the Voyager software (once they add the code in). 
  • The remainder of the software is working perfectly under simulators. Next up, night sky!


#16 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 29 November 2018 - 10:43 PM

The fix, for those interested:

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • FLIFix.png


#17 choward94002

choward94002

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • Joined: 25 Jul 2016
  • Loc: Bay Area, Central AZ

Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:49 AM

I'm also experimenting with this ... two issues that I've found with SGP is the focusing (it tends to get confused if there are clouds in some of the fields, and gives a focus curve that is just whacky ... FocusMax handles that very nicely, but SGP doesn't use it ... Voyager does ...) and the camera downloads for my old crusty NightScapes (SGP locks up at times, Voyager lets me use Maxim which handles the NightScape natively) ...

 

Yes, the Italian help stuff is annoying ... but overall I'd agree, a very nice app and the scripting is much better than SGP's ... developer is quite responsive also with a few questions I had, definitely worth a whirl!


  • rockstarbill likes this

#18 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 30 November 2018 - 05:54 PM

Right on. Have you run into any issues with Voyager yet? The camera speed in SkyX thing is fairly minor. I can just run the camera in quality mode at all times. Being able to use @focus3 is far more important.

#19 choward94002

choward94002

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • Joined: 25 Jul 2016
  • Loc: Bay Area, Central AZ

Posted 30 November 2018 - 07:46 PM

Simulations look good, I'm going to give it a "live fire" later this weekend ... about the only thing I have questions about is how much info they put into the FITS header (it's important that I get in my SQM numbers from the SkyMeter and the FWHM numbers from PhD, which SGP does for me).  Looking forward to seeing if it fixes my two major nits with SGP (field focusing means cloud patches give me focus curves that look more like Etch-a-Sketch doodles, FocusMax goes for stars and Leonardo says there are two focus routines internal to Voyager to try out) and NightScape support (my crusty 'ole Nightscapes aren't fully supported by SGP so I get lockups sometimes, MaximDL works every time but SGP doesn't do that.  Voyager lets me use MaximDL so that would fix nit number two) ... otherwise, the scripting is much more advanced and I'm going to see if I can tie it into the SkyAlert for roof on/ roof off stuff ...

 

Nice app, wish I knew Italian! :)


  • rockstarbill likes this

#20 rockstarbill

rockstarbill

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 5660
  • Joined: 16 Jul 2013
  • Loc: Snohomish, WA

Posted 30 November 2018 - 07:55 PM

Let me know about the FITS header stuff. That seems like a good piece of functionality to retain. 



#21 Leonardo70

Leonardo70

    Vendor (Starkeeper Software)

  • -----
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 1469
  • Joined: 16 Apr 2009
  • Loc: Turin - Italy

Posted 01 December 2018 - 11:27 AM

Thanks for looking at Voyager. Its true ... Voyager doesn't have documentation in english .. so sorry ! I'm working on. But i want to say  you something about what you wrote in this thread. Voyager have support for remote setup and first light included in license. Have inside 2 kind of built in AutoFocus RoboFire VCurve and RoboFire LocalField. The first is equivalent to FocusMax but use AI for manage vcurve and focus and work on one star. An AI Automa choose automatically star near the target according filter and go back to target at end of focus. The second use AI and work on all field stars pointed using fitting curve of 5th order. There's a failover that come back to other type of focus for retry. This Autofocus is INSIDE Voyager ! Voyager also have a 1000 of others features but i dont want to annoying you.

 

Just about flat and exception, Voyager Flat action use mount to park or move to a predefined position or simple point to zenit for who have to put panel on top ... its normal to receive exception if mount is not configured.

 

All the best,

Leo


Edited by Leonardo70, 01 December 2018 - 12:50 PM.

  • Goofi and rockstarbill like this

#22 JukkaP

JukkaP

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 529
  • Joined: 14 Aug 2016

Posted 05 December 2018 - 11:53 AM

Hey!

How you can preview the image you took?



#23 Leonardo70

Leonardo70

    Vendor (Starkeeper Software)

  • -----
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 1469
  • Joined: 16 Apr 2009
  • Loc: Turin - Italy

Posted 05 December 2018 - 05:39 PM

I answer to you on Voyager forum ... thanks

 

All the best,

LO



#24 choward94002

choward94002

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 575
  • Joined: 25 Jul 2016
  • Loc: Bay Area, Central AZ

Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:23 PM

Let me know about the FITS header stuff. That seems like a good piece of functionality to retain. 

OK, a little more info after some "live fire" exercises ... basically testing focusing, having both SGP and Voyager flit around like angry hummingbirds from spot to spot focusing on things; I was trying to compare the different algo's that they use against "real world" clouds.  One "advantage" of having a telescope "farm" is that I can task one for SGP, one for Voyager VCurve, one for Voyager LocalField, one for Voyager FocusMax and one for Maxim using FocusMax (yes, I know that Voyager just passes through Maxim FocusMax and regular FocusMax but you always test permuations ... you might find something!).  The experiment is for all of them to go the same position which Stellarium shows as having a reasonable starfield and try to get a focus; that will tell me which is most consistent, which gets the best focus and which can survive a cloud in the middle :/

 

I picked about 100 locations in a cone about 30deg from vertical (again, I'm just getting focus rather than actual objects so I'm OK with just a few stars in the picture) and about 30 locations in "tough" spots with more airmass as well as before/ after astronomical twilight/ dawn to see how it does with atmospheric dispersal issues as well as stellar extinction issues from skyfog (I don't image less than 30deg below the horizon, so I didn't test that).  Cameras are all identical and cooled the same value, darks were available if asked for by the app as well as exposure times the app wanted to use, and the location slews were all synchronized every 5 minutes (that was trivial with Voyager with it's DragScript, mind-numbingly tedious using SGP's and Maxim's "one at at time" sequences ... oy vey!! I guess that they expect that once you've imaged one then you're done ...)

 

Results were judged based both on PI calculated FWHD's from star(s) in the field center of the lights for point focusing algorithms and both CCD Inspector collimation reports plus PI FWHD's for field focusing algo's (recall that the focus point is just that, a point on a curve that is intersected by the flat focal plane/ sensor plate.  If you focus only on a spot right in the center then everything else will be progressively out of focus from that spot, if you focus on the field than other than a ring of perfect focus everything else will be progressively fuzzy)  Both algo's have value: if I'm shooting a galaxy that's only arc-seconds wide then I want a spot focusing algo, if I'm shooting a nebula that's many arc-minutes wide I want a field focusing algo. 

 

Results were NOT judged on how long it took to focus ... being able to focus in seconds is meaningless if the light isn't razor sharp; I don't mind if it takes 5min to focus if my 20min exposure is going to be "pixel peeper" sharp and with my ASI 183MM and C14 I can get .14"/pixel so I will see if it's not focused!

 

Observations were carried out over two nights from 20:00 to 06:00 with variable high clouds (normally I try to avoid them, now I wanted to get them!) to get the twilight "tough times" as well as cloud effects.  OTA's were "hot tubes" with calculated seeing at 1.5 arc-sec and SQM's varied from 19.2 to 20.5 (twilights to best), camera's were NightScape 10100's with a KAI 10100 chip

 

So, without further ado ...

 

Point Focus Algo's:

     Best FWHM result:  Maxim FocusMax, then Voyager FocusMax, then Voyager VCurve ... Voyager was pretty close, but about 30% of the time it chose stars to focus on that might not have been the best choice; FocusMax consistently picked the right magnitude.  Both were good not to slew TOO far away from the target location for the focus star (you don't want to go more than 10deg DEC from the target because airmass will throw off the focus, Voyager sometimes roamed a bit far afield which showed on the target lights ...)

     Best "cloud" result: Voyager VCurve, then Maxim FocusMax, then Voyager FocusMax ... Voyager consistently got a good curve despite clouds occluding things, FocusMax gave up most of the time (sigh)

 

Field Focus Algo's:

     Best FWHM result: Voyager LocalField, then SGP ... both were consistent and not having to slew around saved time, but SGP sometimes gave REALLY whacky curves (I don't think they are balancing based on stellar magnitudes, which means if you're exposing long enough to get the dimmer stars you're going to be bloating the brighter one and need to take that into account when you're calculating VCurves)

     Best "cloud" result:  Voyager LocalField, then SGP ... SGP *really* doesn't like clouds in a portion of the field, likely a result of the bright/ dim thing for the FWHM results

 

One really nice thing about Voyager versus SGP is that I *can* pick what I want to use; SGP is either "in" or "out" ... additional kudo's for the DragScript, that's REALLY useful!

 

CliffNotes result:  Voyager is a clear winner over SGP both in point focus objects (VCurve) and field focus objects (LocalField) in terms of dealing with clouds; it consistently gave me a usable focus value.  For actual focus precision FocusMax natively though Voyager is the winner for point objects (galaxies), Voyager LocalField is the winner for field objects (nebulae).   Therefore, when I'm planning my night if there are clouds possible I'll choose Voyager VCurve/ LocalField, if it's going to be clear and I'm shooting galaxies I'll use Voyager FocusMax and shooting nebulae Voyager LocalField ...

 

And now, back to my thermal mass/ mirror peltier cooling experiments ... :/  It was actually 'kinda nice watching the scopes flit around, like the fountains at the Bellagio ...


Edited by choward94002, 07 December 2018 - 01:25 PM.

  • pedxing, AstroGabe and rockstarbill like this

#25 AtmosFearIC

AtmosFearIC

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 910
  • Joined: 10 Dec 2015
  • Loc: Melbourne

Posted 07 December 2018 - 05:43 PM

That's really useful! Thanks!

 

How did you find the focusing speed between Voyager and SGP?

 

When using my QHY163M focusing in SPG takes about 30s but when using my Nikon D810 it can take near 5 minutes.

 

With FocusMax it takes about 20s with the QHY163M but I've never tried FocusMax with the Nikon.




CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics