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Red Edmund Scientific Model 3001 6" Newt on the big splayed-leg fork mount

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#1 shredder1656

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 06:58 PM

I am trying to finish up a couple things before I dive into this, but I have been hoping to get this up and rolling for awhile.  I might have posted pics before too.  So, if I have, forgive me.  

 

I think I have everything needed to square this baby away, and will try and post some pictures for any interested parties.  Tom K. assured me I was/am capable of getting this back in shape, but I am not convinced.  The secondary was removed and the original vanes(?) are gone.  I have the copper straps that someone else used on here.  But, this is more involved than any messing around than I have done before.  So, we will see how it goes.  

 

The reason I am posting before I even get started is to see if anyone has advice on removing the caps on the bolts or screws in the second pic.  Every screw is capped this way.  I could fiddle around with the nuts, I think, but I would prefer to remove the primary mirror to hopefully avoid any accidents.  So, since I cannot get to those nuts, I wondered if anyone else had some insight.  If not, no worries.  I plan to get rolling regardless, but it might be a very slow process.  It is CRUMMY weather for the foreseeable future, so it should give me something to do besides wool gathering. 

 

Anyone have any tips for this one?  TIA flowerred.gif

 

20180312_073546.jpg 20180303_062358.jpg


Edited by shredder1656, 29 November 2018 - 06:59 PM.

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#2 DLuders

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 07:30 PM

If you slipped a butter knife under those caps, won't they just pop off?

 

From the post  https://www.cloudyni...nces/?p=7879144 , it seems that you have a Model 3014 combination telescope+fork mount.   laugh.gif 


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#3 MikeTahtib

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 07:38 PM

Beautiful telescope!  With real working setting circles!  I can't give any advice on the screws, but have you seen the very in-depth posts on how to work on everything related to this scope?  I remember seeing them somewhere, pretty sure it was Cloudy Nights, although it was for the 8" version.  Great detail on how to take everything apart, clean, adjust, and put back together.  


Edited by MikeTahtib, 29 November 2018 - 07:38 PM.

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#4 davidmcgo

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 07:48 PM

Those screw caps just pop off with a flat blade screwdriver, plastic knife, etc.

 

Regards the spider vanes, they wrap around the front cell in two places.  There is a bit of a recess, then they wrap around the cotter pins in the hub which are rotated to tension.  Really a pain in the 7th planet but gave a very thin vane and small diffraction spikes.  Luckily the one I had had them intact but the system was pretty clever.

 

Where they fell face down was not having any fine latitude adjustment and trying to hold the scope and fork while dealing with the 4 cone tipped set screws on the base was madness to do by myself with just two hands.

 

Dave


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#5 terraclarke

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 07:49 PM

It’s a pretty tube. I would put it on a beefy GEM. I never could see why Edmund went that route after decades of great GEMs including a nice 1” shaft beige version that went with the earlier red version of that scope.


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#6 Geo31

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 07:58 PM

63594_I.jpg

 

https://www.harborfr...4-pc-63594.html

 

$8 for the set.  Or, you could use something metallic like a screwdriver or a metal pry, but be very careful and pad where you are using it.

 

You can definitely do this.  Just don't be in a hurry.  Take it as it comes.  Sometimes you'll think something is going to be hard and you just fly along.  Other times you'll think something will be easy and, well, it turns out not to be.  Enjoy the journey and have patience.

 

You can do this.


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#7 davidmcgo

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 09:24 PM

It’s a pretty tube. I would put it on a beefy GEM. I never could see why Edmund went that route after decades of great GEMs including a nice 1” shaft beige version that went with the earlier red version of that scope.

I think they were trying to get in on the SCT fork mount market without trying to make an SCT.  But in hindsight the GEM is a better design for astrophotography and their fork fell way short in some areas needed for photography, like precise altitude and azimuth adjustments and a bigger drive gear.  These just had a tiny 3” gear, no precision in the worm mesh, and a small clutch.  Plus as I noted earlier, trying to set the latitude with the scope attached was between an accident and a disaster.  Yet at the same time, the 8” model was offered with that amazing rotatable 2” focuser with the built in off axis guider.

 

Dave


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#8 Tenacious

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 09:26 PM

It’s a pretty tube. I would put it on a beefy GEM. I never could see why Edmund went that route after decades of great GEMs including a nice 1” shaft beige version that went with the earlier red version of that scope.

Visual impact - it looks much cooler and is unique in form, even today.  It's a piece of history, a product from the space race. 

 

The fork looks like a single cast piece rather than bolted together like my C8 fork.  Thicker too.  I will be very interested in how stable (settle times at high magnification) the whole system is after you finish it. 

 

I think you have a fun and uncommon project!   All you need are some RKE eyepieces to go with it.


Edited by Tenacious, 29 November 2018 - 09:35 PM.

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#9 clamchip

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 09:28 PM

There's a good deal of information on the 3001 and family in here including the diagonal

support mekugnizum:

https://www.cloudyni...ific-8-f5-4001/

 

Robert


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#10 Don W

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 09:46 PM

I remember when those Edmund fork-mounted newts first came out. I fell in love with them, especially the 8". In the early 90s someone donated an 8 to our club and we had fun taking it apart and refurbishing it. It never did perform up to expectations. The mount wasn't all that great. But it sure looked cool!


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#11 terraclarke

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 10:57 PM

I think they were trying to get in on the SCT fork mount market without trying to make an SCT.  But in hindsight the GEM is a better design for astrophotography and their fork fell way short in some areas needed for photography, like precise altitude and azimuth adjustments and a bigger drive gear.  These just had a tiny 3” gear, no precision in the worm mesh, and a small clutch.  Plus as I noted earlier, trying to set the latitude with the scope attached was between an accident and a disaster.  Yet at the same time, the 8” model was offered with that amazing rotatable 2” focuser with the built in off axis guider.

 

Dave

I think Norm was more or less out of the picture and upper management was struggling to make their scopes relevant but instead they wound up with a whole line of irrelevant boat anchors. This was at the same time that all the real cool surplus stuff disappeared from their catalog and replaced with lots of cheaply made and expensively priced science ‘toys’, and the catalogs went from thick black and white digest/almanac size to full color, glossy magazines. Seems that was in the mid 80s, right around the time of Halley and they figured they’d ride the comet to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow along with Meade and Celestron. Not long after that they went down the tubes and restructured selling off to what became and still is just Scientifics, and the rest they kept as Anchor Optics (surplus) and Edmund Optics (very high end professional, research, and academic stuff). So yes, they are interesting extinct dinosaurs, index fossils basically, that represent the end of an era. Just be careful and don’t stub your toe on it, trip over it, or throw out your back moving it.


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#12 terraclarke

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 11:02 PM

And sadly, good old Anchor Optics itself disappeared a couple of years ago. That really ended it for me. EO still sends me their Sears Christmas Catalog-sized catalogs twice a year via snail mail as does Scientifics and they are generally consigned to the circular file on the day of recipt.


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#13 Geo31

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 12:12 AM

I think a fork mount is FAR superior to a GEM, especially for AP since there is no meridian flip.  I think the reason you don’t see fork mounts offered commercially is because there are more variables to consider in building one.   If I were to build and ATM scope, it would likely be a fork mount.  Commercially, GEMs are easier to make for a wide variety of scopes.  Before the DOB craze, Stellefane had a lot of fork mount scopes entered in the competition.

 

The real downfall of these scopes is the necessary wide spread pier legs.  Otherwise I loved these scopes specifically for the fork mount.


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#14 shredder1656

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 07:20 AM

Thank you, regarding the caps. I assumed that they just popped off, but I was concerned about breaking the tabs off. Thought maybe there was a trick to avoid that possibility. I will give it a go. Don't hold your breath, because as simple as it is, I assume it will be a slow process due to the realities of life (not complaining!)

Really, other than putting it all back together, it's not a big project. But, properly hanging that secondary is a little concerning. I have read through the various threads that were mentioned. Gives me hope. There are a few cracks in the tube, but I think they're minor.

The mount probably won't be permanently replaced any time soon, but I'm not opposed to using it on a better one sometime. It still has the drive motor, but I haven't tested it yet. The legs look cool, but are probably a death-trap, to which someone referred.

So, maybe it isn't a 3001(?). Not sure, but it seems to all for together as if it was sold as a package. I assumed that with the forks, it for that model.

The mirrors look "ok", but my experience with mirrors is very limited. I'll post some soon.

Thank again. All of the input is appreciated.

Edited by shredder1656, 30 November 2018 - 07:20 AM.


#15 terraclarke

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 08:30 AM

I think a fork mount is FAR superior to a GEM, especially for AP since there is no meridian flip.  I think the reason you don’t see fork mounts offered commercially is because there are more variables to consider in building one.   If I were to build and ATM scope, it would likely be a fork mount.  Commercially, GEMs are easier to make for a wide variety of scopes.  Before the DOB craze, Stellefane had a lot of fork mount scopes entered in the competition.

 

The real downfall of these scopes is the necessary wide spread pier legs.  Otherwise I loved these scopes specifically for the fork mount.

I agree that a fork can be superior for a Newtonian, but it must have large bearings and oversize gearing, and the benefits of the design are really lost on 6” and 8” scopes. For 12” and larger aperture Newtonians, the benefits of a well designed fork and yoke mounts really shine. A good example is George Keene’s 12.5” F4 Newtonian. Also these mounts are heavy and bulky and work best in a permanent installation on a pier in an observatory. While the 6” and 8” fork-mounted red Edmunds are very cool looking in a ‘Will and Penny Robinson/Lost In Space’ the large splay of the legs and the heavy weight make them impractical in use for an otherwise very practical and portable aperture. Don’t get me wrong, I like the way they look, but I wouldn’t want one.


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#16 TOM KIEHL

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 08:57 AM

Lots of good info here Scott ....  https://www.cloudyni...ific-8-f5-4001/

 

Amicus ...... He was the MAN !.... I sure do miss his post frown.gif


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#17 apfever

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 10:02 AM

Use two pry tools on the caps.  Using just one tends to pull the sides tight against the special washer underneath. Using two pry tools at 60 to 90 degrees makes them come off a LOT easier.  The caps grab onto a thin edged washer and can get very tight on the sides if you use one tool.

 

Those caps pull down tight when they snap on. It's easy to mess them up trying to wiggle anything other than a knife edge under them. Notice the screwdriver damage on the cap in the lower left corner.  Get thin.

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#18 shredder1656

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 05:12 PM

Well, if I didn't say so already, this is going to be fairly slow going.  Finished up some domestic responsibilities, and had a few minutes to spare.  No big endeavor(s), though.

 

I removed the hardware from the tube.  The damage, besides the need to re-suspend the secondary, is fairly minor.  However, it is worse than I hoped.  

 

Tom K. gave some good advice to me awhile back.  I intended to use a little superglue and maneuver the cracked red finish and other parts back together.  But, a few of the cracks have displaced more than it first appeared.  Still not horrible.  

 

So, while this is a minor job, I still have not messed with this material before.  Is it just rigid cardboard, or something else.  Is there a way to soften it to try and move displaced, but still attached, pieces back into their proper positions?  If not, I will figure something out.  Most of this is cosmetic, but it would still be nice to have it done well.  

 

Mirror is nice and dirty.  

 

Pictures for reference and for anyone else that is interested, but new to these scopes.  

 

20181222_163325.jpg 20181222_164758.jpg

 

This dent is the only one that punched through to the interior.  

 

20181222_163341.jpg

 

 

 

 

 


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#19 Mr Magoo

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 05:53 PM

Well, if I didn't say so already, this is going to be fairly slow going.  Finished up some domestic responsibilities, and had a few minutes to spare.  No big endeavor(s), though.

 

I removed the hardware from the tube.  The damage, besides the need to re-suspend the secondary, is fairly minor.  However, it is worse than I hoped.  

 

Tom K. gave some good advice to me awhile back.  I intended to use a little superglue and maneuver the cracked red finish and other parts back together.  But, a few of the cracks have displaced more than it first appeared.  Still not horrible.  

 

So, while this is a minor job, I still have not messed with this material before.  Is it just rigid cardboard, or something else.  Is there a way to soften it to try and move displaced, but still attached, pieces back into their proper positions?  If not, I will figure something out.  Most of this is cosmetic, but it would still be nice to have it done well.  

 

Mirror is nice and dirty.  

 

Pictures for reference and for anyone else that is interested, but new to these scopes.  

 

attachicon.gif 20181222_163325.jpgattachicon.gif 20181222_164758.jpg

 

This dent is the only one that punched through to the interior.  

 

attachicon.gif 20181222_163341.jpg

Looks like it took a pretty good fall. I can't imagine it getting knocked over with that leg spread! Maybe someone tripped over the legs and fell into it. Darn shame. I really like those scopes. Have never run across one though. I don't think I could resist it if I did. Just love the color combo and that mount. 


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#20 davidmcgo

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 09:26 PM

I think the tubes were phenolic impregnated.  Might try some of the amateur rocket places and see if the size is common.

 

Dave


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#21 apfever

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 10:51 PM

some of the 6" red tubes were ABS but this one looks like the bakelite type material, hard to be sure with the photos. I think I have both types here in 6" and the ABS type came with the black plastic later version focuser that was definitely inferior to the beige metal one shown.


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#22 shredder1656

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 09:30 AM

Looks like it took a pretty good fall. I can't imagine it getting knocked over with that leg spread! Maybe someone tripped over the legs and fell into it. Darn shame. I really like those scopes. Have never run across one though. I don't think I could resist it if I did. Just love the color combo and that mount. 

 

I think, but I cannot prove it, that someone must have loosened the bolts on the mount, and it swung into the forks somehow.  If that is the case, it seems that it would have needed to be in an awkward position to accomplish this damage.  The other thought, maybe it had something crash into IT, instead of it crashing into itself or something else.  

 

I am not sure how the damage to the secondary vanes is connected, though.  It is a bummer, regardless.  However, if it had never occurred, I might never have come in contact with it.   

 

Who knows.  

 

I agree that it is very cool.  If I can get it back together, and it is a good scope, it will be a fun one to show off to kids and adults alike.  As long as I don't kill myself on those legs.  

 

I think the tubes were phenolic impregnated.  Might try some of the amateur rocket places and see if the size is common.

 

Dave

 

 

some of the 6" red tubes were ABS but this one looks like the bakelite type material, hard to be sure with the photos. I think I have both types here in 6" and the ABS type came with the black plastic later version focuser that was definitely inferior to the beige metal one shown.

 

Does this picture of the inside help identify the material?  I think I could bondo the dent, and make it look pretty good.  Matching the red paint seems problematic.  I really could push the material from the inside and force it back into place, but I am sure that I would have some collateral damage.  

 

I will figure something out.  I would prefer to do a touch-up paint job, rather than a whole repaint.  The current finish looks pretty decent and a nice waxing would probably make it look awesome.  

 

20181223_092235.jpg


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#23 Mr Magoo

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 09:32 AM

Get some red blinky lights for the legs.


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#24 shredder1656

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 10:16 AM

Get some red blinky lights for the legs.

Very wise suggestion.



#25 davidmcgo

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 10:18 AM

Definitely a resin impregnated cardboard tube.  The problem with bondo and the like is there is no structural support for the focuser to help it keep alignment and resist future nocks and bumps.

 

At least try bending an aluminum plate to back it up on the inside.  But if it were me, Id be looking at suppliers of that kind of tubing to see if I could get a new one.  It was likely a stock size.

 

Check with these guys and see if it a size and thickness they make in their Resinlite line:  https://www.pptube.c...sulating-tubing

 

Dave


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