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Red Edmund Scientific Model 3001 6" Newt on the big splayed-leg fork mount

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#26 astrowolf67

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 11:31 AM

Not sure of the exact specs of the tubing, but, it does look a lot like phenolic.  There are a few rocketry vendors that carry an extensive line of phenolic tubing, as well as coupler tubing that fits inside the outer tubing.  Public Missiles, and Giant Leap Rocketry are two good places to check out.  If your scope's tube is phenolic, I would install a coupler tube under the dented and cracked area.  Once the coupler is bonded in place, you can clean up the damaged area, fill and smooth with bondo, and refinish.  You could likely do the same where the focuser mounting is damaged, just insert the coupler far enough into the tube so it doesn't interfere with the secondary spider mounting.


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#27 apfever

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 12:01 PM

That tube is made from what is/was called bakelite. Meade used it and called it fiberlite.  The repair can be made fairly simple and very structurally sound with epoxy. 

Cut a wood disc to fit inside the tube. Put an easy form fitting plastic sheet on the disk, such as kitchen wrap (Saran wrap or similar), to keep the work from sticking to the disc.

The tube material will 'wet' with epoxy very readily. This means the epoxy will grab into the tube, kind of soak in, and create a very strong bond.

Working the epoxy in is easy using little slivers, thin plastic, thin metal, etc. to work the epoxy deep towards the ends of the break.

Combine all this with plucking the parts back into position, experimenting before the epoxy, then with the repair. Line up your approach. 

The Epoxy doesn't need air to set so you can place another piece of kitchen plastic wrap around the outside and clamp the repair with another curved block or just a simple strap. 

 

These scopes usually don't take such a beating. The RV-6 is made from the same stuff and the hard mounted finder brackets on the RV-6 are prone to causing tube damage. I've fixed a few. In the case of easy damage, I back up the inside final assembly with a sheet metal plate as Dave suggested in the previous post. Another easy option is to use fender washers that are easy to beat into a curve to fit the inside of the tube. I've done both.  It is a fairly easy repair, not as complicated as it may sound. You might be surprised at how much the pieces come back together with the paint, and how good it can look without touch up. Also the mounted parts will cover quite a bit of the damage.


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#28 shredder1656

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 02:56 PM

Thanks to all of you for your input.  Hopefully I can fix those issues.  I want it to look pretty, but functionality is the primary concern.  I see the necessity of reinforcing the focuser for sure.  It is tempting to go for a new tube, but I hope to keep the original.

 

I like the epoxy idea, which was very similar to Tom Kiehl's suggestion (you can correct me, Tom).  Is there one brand or type of epoxy that is more workable than others?  

 

I am not tackling each task at the same time, but looking over the work and wondering about a few things before beginning any single one.  Do cork washers go between the "rings" and where they mount on the forks?  I doubt that it is supposed to be metal to metal.  

 

20181223_145031.jpg

 

Also, the finder scope is in fairly decent shape, but the objective is filthy.  At first glance, I did not see a way to disassemble it, and get to the glass.  What am I not seeing?  

 

I started reading a few other threads, including the one that Tom linked in his earlier post.  Thanks again.

 

20181223_145109.jpg 20180312_073924.jpg 20180312_073858.jpg

 

 


Edited by shredder1656, 23 December 2018 - 02:57 PM.

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#29 jcruse64

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 04:37 PM

What'd ya smack that thumb with????



#30 shredder1656

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 06:34 PM

What'd ya smack that thumb with????

That is from last year.  Old pic.  Freezing cold, and helping my oldest son with some "work" on his old jeep that involved a 3 pound sledge.  Glancing blow that felt great and let me know that I actually DO have feelings.


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#31 shredder1656

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 07:30 PM

I read through Amicus Sidera and Happy Idiot's thread.  I have read it before, but WOW!  Amicus sure put in some outstanding detail.  VERY helpful.  

 

I did determine that I am missing the tangent arm.  It is possible, but not probable, that it is in one of my boxes.  I do not remember seeing it.  Other than that, I just need to figure out how to get to the glass in the finder, and take a shot at stretching the new spider vanes.   I think this stuff will work.

 

 

20181223_160117.jpg 20181223_155504.jpg 20181223_155437.jpg



#32 DMala

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 08:45 PM

If you losen the thumbscrew, doesn't the diagonal of the viewfinder come off? Then you leave the lenses in the tube and clean from both ends

#33 clamchip

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 09:12 PM

A tip from Tom K. you mentioned super glue and maneuvering the pieces to repair your phenolic

tube.

It works very well I've repaired a few RV-6 tubes this way, mostly tube edge damage.

Phenolic is basically resin impregnated craft tube or as we know it as paper tube. 

The superglue wicks into it and re-impregnates the de-lamination of the paper layers,

The trick is to rearrange the damage as close to the original form as possible and hold it there

with clamps, tape, male & female forms, etc., with wax paper between the tube and your fixtures.

Then use the water thin superglue and hit the area from wherever possible and it will capillarily

get sucked in.

 

Robert


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#34 TOM KIEHL

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Posted 23 December 2018 - 11:57 PM

A tip from Tom K. you mentioned super glue and maneuvering the pieces to repair your phenolic

tube.

It works very well I've repaired a few RV-6 tubes this way, mostly tube edge damage.

Phenolic is basically resin impregnated craft tube or as we know it as paper tube. 

The superglue wicks into it and re-impregnates the de-lamination of the paper layers,

The trick is to rearrange the damage as close to the original form as possible and hold it there

with clamps, tape, male & female forms, etc., with wax paper between the tube and your fixtures.

Then use the water thin superglue and hit the area from wherever possible and it will capillarily

get sucked in.

 

Robert

Then the addition of "Microballoons" to the top layer with CA Glue makes CA Glue Sandable

 

https://www.aircraft...ASABEgJYNvD_BwE


Edited by TOM KIEHL, 23 December 2018 - 11:58 PM.

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#35 Geo31

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 12:11 AM

That tube is made from what is/was called bakelite. 

 

The tube is not Bakelite.  It’s phenolic.

 

Bakelite is an early, primitive, thermoset plastic.

 

Phenolic is a sort of composite that involves resin impregnated paper or cloth (typically) and very strong.


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#36 DMala

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 12:45 AM

Have you guys already discussed which red paint could be a good choice for the OTA restauration? I got my Edmund 8" f5 OTA today and I will need to fill a few holes. Thx

#37 bremms

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 06:33 AM

Epoxy is nearly ideal for repair of phenolic impregnated tubes. Something a bit bettter than good old 5 minute like West system used for fiberglass. Even the stuff for balsa models from the hobby store is decent, as it can easily get in the cracks. Pulling everything together is a challenge, but you have options there.



#38 roscoe

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 06:40 AM

Here's a 'pusher' that I made to fix a similar dent in my Cave tube repairs.... it is just two pieces of 2x4 cut to the curve of the tube inside (don't have to be perfectly smooth) and a long bolt and all-thread nut between them, both ends set into shallow holes so things won't try to run away, and by unscrewing the bolt and nut, the rig gets longer and presses the tube back into shape.

I did mine in two parts - first, to reshape the tube, second, to epoxy a curved aluminum patch to the inside.  I used waxed paper to keep glue from sticking.

 

with the pusher in place, you can sort-of hammer the parts into place a bit - gently, of course - to help them settle into place.  A small paintbrush is handy for getting the adhesive in.  I used slow-set epoxy for my repairs.  Clear might work best for you, so it showed least in the repairs.

 

DSCN0978.JPG


Edited by roscoe, 24 December 2018 - 06:46 AM.

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#39 shredder1656

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 09:22 AM

I am starting slow.  I couldn't reach the retaining ring for the objective in the finder, so I resorted to what I had left from an old license plate.  Ugly, but it works.  On a side note, that turned out to be an appropriate pick-up line I used to hook my wife "I'm ugly, but I work".  Not really.  I had to use the old "Does this smell like Ether to you?" line.  

 

Ok, I am done.  Sorry.  

 

Probably common knowledge, but I saw no reference to the finder in any of the threads I have read so far.  I might have overlooked it, but just in case, the only way I could see to get this cleaned up was to use my license plate wrench. I removed the retaining ring, and then used some really light-weight cardboard rolled into a slim tube to push the glass and ring out the end of the tube.  It is a cemented doublet, and cleaned up reasonably well.  I could not get a great picture, but the difference is significant.  

 

The diagonal is plastic, and has been repaired before.  I removed the tape and residue.  I then tried to superglue the cracks instead of the nasty old tape.  I might get a small pipe or hose clamp.  The reticle ep cleaned up well.  I found a couple of caps that will keep it dust-free, but aren't the prettiest.  

 

The scope, as most of you probably know, is nice and sharp dead-center.  At the edge of field, though...blehhh

 

Baby steps... grin.gif

 

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#40 DMala

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 12:31 PM

For the red paint touch-up I just happened to drive by a hobby shop and I picked up a bottle of Boyd Red enamel, I will report back on how well it matches. I did not find much paint info online after a couple of searches.

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#41 shredder1656

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 01:40 PM

For the red paint touch-up I just happened to drive by a hobby shop and I picked up a bottle of Boyd Red enamel, I will report back on how well it matches. I did not find much paint info online after a couple of searches.

Nice! Your scope looks pretty nice in the Christmas thread!

Out of curiosity, is that tan diagonal metal and original? The diagonal in mine is plastic, and will work, but it's rife with cracks.

Also, in the previously referenced thread, there is a part from Amicus Sidera (I think) that identified a brand and color name for both the red and almond color. I will look for it again.

Edited by shredder1656, 24 December 2018 - 01:43 PM.

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#42 DMala

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 02:02 PM

Nice! Your scope looks pretty nice in the Christmas thread!

Out of curiosity, is that tan diagonal metal and original? The diagonal in mine is plastic, and will work, but it's rife with cracks.

Also, in the previously referenced thread, there is a part from Amicus Sidera (I think) that identified a brand and color name for both the red and almond color. I will look for it again.

Yes the seller of my 8" (who however was not the first owner) took it off the Edmund's metal diagonal viewfinder himself and replaced it with an aftermarket model, but luckily saved it with its mount. I think I know the color reference you mention but at a quick search  I got the impression that the product may not be available anymore. It could be worth checking again though.


Edited by DMala, 24 December 2018 - 02:03 PM.


#43 shredder1656

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Posted 25 December 2018 - 08:14 PM

Had a few minutes here and there to fiddle with a few things.  

 

Yesterday I put the primary mirror in a bath to soak over night.  This morning I used some cotton balls and afterwards rinsed with distilled water.  Definitely has many pinholes, and a few that are obvious without light.  I think I need to give it a little more time to soak, but maybe it has just degraded too much.  It looks pretty nice straight on, but there is a film or spots all over.  Hard to show in the photos.  Progress, anyway.  

 

20181225_115942.jpg

 

The film is visible in this picture.  

 

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At least it has a signed mirror.  This Parabola person had a flourish in their signature.  I wonder if they were well known?  grin.gif 

 

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After a nice conversation with Tom K., and a little more research yesterday, I was feeling a little more optimistic about the secondary spider vanes.  I decided to give it a whirl as I had a few minutes.  It worked out ok, I believe.  I still need to do the tube repairs, and clean/grease the mount, etc, but the vanes were what I was most concerned with.  

 

I am pretty sure that the hole that the secondary stalk slides into is centered within a mm or less.  Hopefully that is close enough until I get it all put back together and can collimate it.  

 

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#44 davidmcgo

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Posted 25 December 2018 - 09:24 PM

Nice job on the spider vanes!  It was a pretty ingenious and very uncommon design.

 

Dave


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#45 TOM KIEHL

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:53 AM

Nice work Scott , that turned out good waytogo.gif


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#46 shredder1656

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 09:27 AM

Nice work Scott , that turned out good waytogo.gif

Good instruction.  bow.gif 


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#47 deepwoods1

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 10:10 AM

Coming along nicely!



#48 DMala

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 04:37 PM

For the red paint touch-up I just happened to drive by a hobby shop and I picked up a bottle of Boyd Red enamel, I will report back on how well it matches. I did not find much paint info online after a couple of searches.

Boyd Red Enamel is NOT a good match, it is too dark. I am now testing some acrylic paint I found around the house, I will get back later with the results.

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#49 shredder1656

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:42 PM

Looks better in person, but thanks to all of you for your advice.  Making progress.  Not very pretty, but better than it was.  

 

20181226_203544.jpg 20181226_203716.jpg


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#50 astrowolf67

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Posted 26 December 2018 - 08:53 PM

You are making good progress!  I love the look of these old scopes.  Your primary looks much like the one I pulled from my Star Finder over the past weekend, only without the bug parts.  I also had a film on mine, that, when picked up by the cotton balls, was black, which I am assuming was from possibly being in a smoker's home.  I also discovered many pinholes once the dust and film was removed.  I plan to use my mirror as is, until the rest of the work is complete, and have it recoated as the last step.


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