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Mr Magoo's Cave

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#51 CHASLX200

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 07:26 PM

There is nothing down in the hole except bare threads. 

I think the hammer trick is the best way if all else fails. Tapping on it at 1 o clock then 7 o clock and on and one..  Soak it first and see how that goes. Maybe even heat it up.


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#52 Mr Magoo

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 07:31 PM

I just found something I thought was interesting. I removed the secondary holder and was surprised to see that the shroud is inscribed with a serial number. There is a circled M above the number 022758. So I'm guessing Feb. 27, 1975 and the number 8 is the 8th one of the year?


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#53 CHASLX200

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 07:47 PM

I just found something I thought was interesting. I removed the secondary holder and was surprised to see that the shroud is inscribed with a serial number. There is a circled M above the number 022758. So I'm guessing Feb. 27, 1975 and the number 8 is the 8th one of the year?

About the same time my Cervit Cave was made.  I wonder how many Cervit blanks Cave sold?


Edited by CHASLX200, 02 December 2018 - 07:47 PM.


#54 TOM KIEHL

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 08:02 PM

If it was I .......I would first make sure with a depth gauge that in fact the set screw IS gone .

 

2 . proceed with a soak of a penetrating fluid  of your choice .

3. remove OTA cradle , and Dec housing and bearings from cradle end of shafting .

4. Now all that remains is the bare shaft and stuck counter weight  .

5. sand rusty shaft (with Emery ) from counter weight face to toe saver end of shaft to a smooth rust free finish . 

6. Now place a piece of hard wood on the concrete  floor . Pick up and hold OTA cradle end of shaft vertical with stuck counter weight hanging downward over the piece of wood .

7. Impact wood block with varied force with counterweight shaft end ( The "Emery sanded end " ) . Lifting counterweight and shaft up and down to impact stationary wood block on the concrete floor . 

 

LET GRAVITY DO THE WORK........ Note : No parts are dented this way , like with a sledgehammer lol.gif 

 

IF THIS PROCEDURE FAILS ........Get serious and take it to work and put it in a PRESS waytogo.gif lol.gif


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#55 Mikefp

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 08:26 PM

If it was I .......I would first make sure with a depth gauge that in fact the set screw IS gone .
 
2 . proceed with a soak of a penetrating fluid  of your choice .
3. remove OTA cradle , and Dec housing and bearings from cradle end of shafting .
4. Now all that remains is the bare shaft and stuck counter weight  .
5. sand rusty shaft (with Emery ) from counter weight face to toe saver end of shaft to a smooth rust free finish . 
6. Now place a piece of hard wood on the concrete  floor . Pick up and hold OTA cradle end of shaft vertical with stuck counter weight hanging downward over the piece of wood .
7. Impact wood block with varied force with counterweight shaft end ( The "Emery sanded end " ) . Lifting counterweight and shaft up and down to impact stationary wood block on the concrete floor . 
 
LET GRAVITY DO THE WORK........ Note : No parts are dented this way , like with a sledgehammer lol.gif
 
IF THIS PROCEDURE FAILS ........Get serious and take it to work and put it in a PRESS waytogo.gif lol.gif



A little heat goes a long ways to removing stuck weights. I use a Propane torch with very mild heat and difficult to remove becomes easy. Please never pound on the shafts or weights with a hammer! Wood blocks are great idea but heat usually frees the weight from the shaft after cleaning the rust as stated.

Clarification on applying heat. Heat the weight with a propane torch to expand the hole of the weight. Not the shaft..


I added some pictures of my tangent arm and motor attachment. I made aluminum spindles that fit the motor shaft with a small rubber hose connector to the tangent treaded shaft. The switch does require a capacitor for the DA Hurst motor. I'll take apart my reversing switch and give the specs.

DSC01984.JPG
DSC01987.JPG

Edited by Mikefp, 02 December 2018 - 09:15 PM.

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#56 Mr Magoo

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 08:35 PM

If it was I .......I would first make sure with a depth gauge that in fact the set screw IS gone .

 

2 . proceed with a soak of a penetrating fluid  of your choice .

3. remove OTA cradle , and Dec housing and bearings from cradle end of shafting .

4. Now all that remains is the bare shaft and stuck counter weight  .

5. sand rusty shaft (with Emery ) from counter weight face to toe saver end of shaft to a smooth rust free finish . 

6. Now place a piece of hard wood on the concrete  floor . Pick up and hold OTA cradle end of shaft vertical with stuck counter weight hanging downward over the piece of wood .

7. Impact wood block with varied force with counterweight shaft end ( The "Emery sanded end " ) . Lifting counterweight and shaft up and down to impact stationary wood block on the concrete floor . 

 

LET GRAVITY DO THE WORK........ Note : No parts are dented this way , like with a sledgehammer lol.gif

 

IF THIS PROCEDURE FAILS ........Get serious and take it to work and put it in a PRESS waytogo.gif lol.gif

First thing I did was check it with the depth gauge. Trust me guys, no set screw lol!

 

I will let is soak for a while. 

 

I have thought of removing the shaft with the weight on it to make it easier to handle. If I loosen the set screw on the collar below the saddle, the collar should come off right? It is stuck too. Some soaking there also it looks like. After that collar is removed, should I not be able to slide the shaft out that way?


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#57 Mikefp

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 08:39 PM

Some more pictures of the completed dec system. Next I'll look to see what capacitor I used in the hand controller. I have the 2 rpm DA Hurst AC motor. I think your 1 rpm will be better for control.


DSC01986.JPG

DSC01985.JPG
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#58 Mikefp

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 08:48 PM

Hey Ken,
Required Capacitor is rated 0.5 uf ( micro farads) as stated in earlier post. I think you will like the 1 rpm Hurst motor.
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#59 Mr Magoo

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 09:47 PM

A little heat goes a long ways to removing stuck weights. I use a Propane torch with very mild heat and difficult to remove becomes easy. Please never pound on the shafts or weights with a hammer! Wood blocks are great idea but heat usually frees the weight from the shaft after cleaning the rust as stated.

Clarification on applying heat. Heat the weight with a propane torch to expand the hole of the weight. Not the shaft..


I added some pictures of my tangent arm and motor attachment. I made aluminum spindles that fit the motor shaft with a small rubber hose connector to the tangent treaded shaft. The switch does require a capacitor for the DA Hurst motor. I'll take apart my reversing switch and give the specs.

attachicon.gif DSC01984.JPG
attachicon.gif DSC01987.JPG

Awesome Mike! My new motor looks just like that one except it is 1RPM. 



#60 Mr Magoo

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 10:03 PM

Ken,

   If you have the motor, your also going to need a non polarized capacitor rated at 250 volts or more. The value you need should be written on the motor. Usually they are around 0.5 uf ( micro farads). It goes in the hand paddle and  is wired to two momentary contact normally open push button switches.  Depending on which switch you push determines  which coil in the motor is leading vs following  (phase shift ) and that determines  which way the motor turns.  The capacitor and the windings in motor cause a time delay in the AC sine wave so depending on which coil is connected to the capacitor, determines which one is lagging behind  the other. 

   As for the  counter weight stuck on the shaft, after the soaking with penetrating oil  and the torch didn't work, I think I remember using a block of wood against  the weight and hitting it with a  hammer, both up and down. That got it loosen enough that I was able to twist it back and forth and get it off. 

 

           - Dave 

Thank you Dave. I will look for the parts. Can you recommend a brand and a good source for them?



#61 TOMDEY

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 10:27 PM

So looking at the picture of what is remaining of the Dec drive/tangent arm, can someone tell me what I am missing for this era of mount? Pictures if possible please! 

 

I do not know if it is the correct one or not, but I did find an original Hurst DA,1 RPM, 5w motor for $16 so I took a chance and grabbed it. I was not sure if this one should have the Hurst or the Bristol in this spot. Thank you all!

Ken, are you intending to do an intentionally-classic refurbish... or to possibly Improve performance?

 

On my 12.5-inch, I (irreverently) replaced the stock Cave Astrola drives with Byers. The stock ones are notorious for terrible tracking and backlash, but the bearings are very good. My upgrades improved the behavior from junky to exquisite!

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  • 04 Toms Old 12.5 Astrola with upgrades.jpg

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#62 TOM KIEHL

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 10:49 PM

 If I loosen the set screw on the collar below the saddle, the collar should come off right?

 Yes that is right Ken .The tangent arm may have to be removed also before shaft and counterweight can be removed from DEC casting .



#63 Mr Magoo

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 11:42 PM

 Yes that is right Ken .The tangent arm may have to be removed also before shaft and counterweight can be removed from DEC casting .

Thanks Tom. I did get the  tangent arm off, but the collar will not budge. Letting it soak. 


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#64 CHASLX200

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 06:19 AM

If it was I .......I would first make sure with a depth gauge that in fact the set screw IS gone .

 

2 . proceed with a soak of a penetrating fluid  of your choice .

3. remove OTA cradle , and Dec housing and bearings from cradle end of shafting .

4. Now all that remains is the bare shaft and stuck counter weight  .

5. sand rusty shaft (with Emery ) from counter weight face to toe saver end of shaft to a smooth rust free finish . 

6. Now place a piece of hard wood on the concrete  floor . Pick up and hold OTA cradle end of shaft vertical with stuck counter weight hanging downward over the piece of wood .

7. Impact wood block with varied force with counterweight shaft end ( The "Emery sanded end " ) . Lifting counterweight and shaft up and down to impact stationary wood block on the concrete floor . 

 

LET GRAVITY DO THE WORK........ Note : No parts are dented this way , like with a sledgehammer lol.gif

 

IF THIS PROCEDURE FAILS ........Get serious and take it to work and put it in a PRESS waytogo.gif lol.gif

 

If it was I .......I would first make sure with a depth gauge that in fact the set screw IS gone .

 

2 . proceed with a soak of a penetrating fluid  of your choice .

3. remove OTA cradle , and Dec housing and bearings from cradle end of shafting .

4. Now all that remains is the bare shaft and stuck counter weight  .

5. sand rusty shaft (with Emery ) from counter weight face to toe saver end of shaft to a smooth rust free finish . 

6. Now place a piece of hard wood on the concrete  floor . Pick up and hold OTA cradle end of shaft vertical with stuck counter weight hanging downward over the piece of wood .

7. Impact wood block with varied force with counterweight shaft end ( The "Emery sanded end " ) . Lifting counterweight and shaft up and down to impact stationary wood block on the concrete floor . 

 

LET GRAVITY DO THE WORK........ Note : No parts are dented this way , like with a sledgehammer lol.gif

 

IF THIS PROCEDURE FAILS ........Get serious and take it to work and put it in a PRESS waytogo.gif lol.gif

I was joking about a sledge. But tapping with a smaller hammer may do the trick.



#65 CHASLX200

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 06:21 AM

Ken, are you intending to do an intentionally-classic refurbish... or to possibly Improve performance?

 

On my 12.5-inch, I (irreverently) replaced the stock Cave Astrola drives with Byers. The stock ones are notorious for terrible tracking and backlash, but the bearings are very good. My upgrades improved the behavior from junky to exquisite!

Who made the tube?



#66 TOM KIEHL

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 07:26 AM

Thanks Tom. I did get the  tangent arm off, but the collar will not budge. Letting it soak. 

Put a "cheater" on the long end of a L shaped Allen Wrench .........More Leverage waytogo.gif wink.gif ..... IF you round out the socket set screw , split the " Stop Collar " on one or both sides of the set screw with a die grinder . Buy a new Stop Collar , they're CHEAP and look Good new and Shiny lol.gif waytogo.gif 


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#67 TOM KIEHL

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 07:34 AM

Just a suggestion ...... Get the mirrors off to Jeff Decker at Majestic optical coatings , AFTER ! the holiday shipping rush . That way the mirrors will be waiting on You to finish the rest of the build .


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#68 John Higbee

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 07:46 AM

One thing I forgot to mention. You may be wondering why did Ken move that mount with that massive freaking counterweight still on the shaft? Well, when I went to remove it I found that there is no set screw in the hole and it is frozen on the shaft! That will be one of the first things I deal with. Not sure what it weighs, but it's YUGE!

Congratulations on the great find!  I have a '75 Cave 12.5" which I am planning to restore...and the identical weight, also frozen hard on the declination shaft...will be interested to see how you get the two separated!

 

John


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#69 TOMDEY

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 07:53 AM

Who made the tube?

I had it made at a custom shop in Rochester, NY. I did that, because the original fiberglass tube was woefully flexible, making differential flexure among the attached cameras impossible to control. That fixed the problem. I did many hundreds of multi-hour Deep Sky images (onto film) with this scope. Here's one. >>> Tom

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  • 05 Cocoon onto TP 2415 circa 1980 Astrola.jpg

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#70 DAVIDG

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:22 AM

Thank you Dave. I will look for the parts. Can you recommend a brand and a good source for them?

 Ken,

   You can get them from many sources. Since I restore vintage radios I get my caps from Tubesandmore.com

  Here is a link to inexpensive caps that will work just fine for this application. A 0.47 uf will work perfectly and that is a common value. The 0.5 uf is a bit of an odd ball size and the tolerance is typically  10% anyway.  Just be sure that the  model of your motor uses a 0.5uf cap since that is not an universal fit. I have Hurst motors that use 0.33 uf.  https://www.tubesand...ene-axial-leads

 

            - Dave 


Edited by DAVIDG, 03 December 2018 - 12:22 PM.

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#71 PiSigma

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:19 PM

I just found something I thought was interesting. I removed the secondary holder and was surprised to see that the shroud is inscribed with a serial number. There is a circled M above the number 022758. So I'm guessing Feb. 27, 1975 and the number 8 is the 8th one of the year?

Yours would be the fourth Cave that I have recorded this feature on and I will note it in the registry. I haven't been able to figure out what the numbers represent.

 

The other three are:

 

10" f/7 Custom Super Deluxe M705160 dated 4/1970 (no day) CM 112948

8" f/6.3 Lightweight Deluxe R749627 dated 9/20/1974 (a refigured mirror in a complete scope) CM 112944

8" f/8 Model B Deluxe M740026 dated 12/7/1974 (a Cave I previously owned) CM 121749

 

As I look at these three again along with yours I just don't see how they break down into something meaningful. A bit of a mystery at this point. When I first saw this on my Model B Deluxe I was very surprised as I had never seen this documented on any Cave before.

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#72 Mr Magoo

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:07 PM

Some more pictures of the completed dec system. Next I'll look to see what capacitor I used in the hand controller. I have the 2 rpm DA Hurst AC motor. I think your 1 rpm will be better for control.


attachicon.gif DSC01986.JPG

attachicon.gif DSC01985.JPG

Looks great Mike!



#73 Mr Magoo

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:20 PM

Yours would be the fourth Cave that I have recorded this feature on and I will note it in the registry. I haven't been able to figure out what the numbers represent.

 

The other three are:

 

10" f/7 Custom Super Deluxe M705160 dated 4/1970 (no day) CM 112948

8" f/6.3 Lightweight Deluxe R749627 dated 9/20/1974 (a refigured mirror in a complete scope) CM 112944

8" f/8 Model B Deluxe M740026 dated 12/7/1974 (a Cave I previously owned) CM 121749

 

As I look at these three again along with yours I just don't see how they break down into something meaningful. A bit of a mystery at this point. When I first saw this on my Model B Deluxe I was very surprised as I had never seen this documented on any Cave before.

I don't have the spider out yet. I imagine it has numbers also as well as possibly the secondary. Looking at those numbers I read them the same as the mirror numbers. Numbers are the date it was assembled or made and probably which one it was for the month. 

 

Working on the shaft and counter weight this evening I notice numbers stamped into the counter weight. Numbers are 6063988 and under that is stamped 11AB. I have no clue what any of that might mean. 

 

Numbers everywhere! 



#74 Mr Magoo

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:25 PM

Just a suggestion ...... Get the mirrors off to Jeff Decker at Majestic optical coatings , AFTER ! the holiday shipping rush . That way the mirrors will be waiting on You to finish the rest of the build .

I may send them to Jeff. I would love to have the primary tested though. No rush for me though. This job will take me a while this time. My work is still crazy busy. My other big issue is my work space is limited right now. I need to get my paint booth built back up to do this and a couple of other things. It is harder for me to vent it though in the winter time.  



#75 Mr Magoo

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Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:26 PM

 Ken,

   You can get them from many sources. Since I restore vintage radios I get my caps from Tubesandmore.com

  Here is a link to inexpensive caps that will work just fine for this application. A 0.47 uf will work perfectly and that is a common value. The 0.5 uf is a bit of an odd ball size and the tolerance is typically  10% anyway.  Just be sure that the  model of your motor uses a 0.5uf cap since that is not an universal fit. I have Hurst motors that use 0.33 uf.  https://www.tubesand...ene-axial-leads

 

            - Dave 

Thank you Dave. It does say .5 MFD on the motor. I will check out the link. 




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