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EAA with a manual Dobson... it´s working!

EAA
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#51 Lukes1040

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 10:13 PM

Confused. Are you actually reversing the direction of the focal reducer before installing it on the camera?


The focal reducer came installed backwards. I purchased the same one and had the same issue. The reducer should give you a wider field of view, but as it came it was narrower. Flipping the lens corrected the issue.

If you purchased a high quality one you shouldn’t have the same problem

#52 mikenoname

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 11:19 PM

Okay, so clearly I misunderstood. SonDob was saying that he also got a reversed one and was thanking Ubuntu for the tip of correcting it back to the way it should be so that it worked properly.

 

I thought they had found some great secret of reversing the FC for much better results on a manual dob. LOL



#53 Ubuntu

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 01:12 PM

NGC 1365: 33 frames, total 33s

Stack_33frames_33s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg

 

NGC 891: 45 frames, total 45s

Stack_45frames_45s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg

 

NGC 2403: 46 frames, total 46s

Stack_46frames_46s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg

 

Pac Man nebula: 59 frames, total 59s

Stack_59frames_59s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg


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#54 Lukes1040

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 03:35 PM

You must live under some great sky conditions. I haven’t seen a clear sky in over 2 weeks. Great shots
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#55 mikenoname

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 05:46 PM

Very inspiring!

 

I might be able to get an XT8 Classic cheaply to play around with but am concerned about back focus issues when using such aggressive focal reduction. Could you give a bit more detail about what you wrote below?

 

 

- A cam stick because with a focal reducer I didn't know if I would have enough backfocus (and indeed it didn't miss... I had to tinker with something to get the cam into the PO 2")

 

 

What is a cam stick?

I am assuming the 'PO 2"' is referring to the 2" focuser?

Do you have pictures or details about what 'tinker with something' means? I know SonDob literally hacked his camera up. :)

 

Thanks!



#56 Ubuntu

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 03:26 AM

You must live under some great sky conditions. I haven’t seen a clear sky in over 2 weeks. Great shots

Indeed Luke, here we have been blessed with good weather for the last 10 days... I leave in Portugal smile.gif


Edited by Ubuntu, 14 January 2019 - 03:53 AM.


#57 Ubuntu

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 03:49 AM

Very inspiring!

 

I might be able to get an XT8 Classic cheaply to play around with but am concerned about back focus issues when using such aggressive focal reduction. Could you give a bit more detail about what you wrote below?

 

 

What is a cam stick?

I am assuming the 'PO 2"' is referring to the 2" focuser?

Do you have pictures or details about what 'tinker with something' means? I know SonDob literally hacked his camera up. smile.gif

 

Thanks!

First, sorry for my english... it's not the best smile.gif

 

A stick camera is a thin camera that you can put entirely inside the focuser 2"... Lots of cam do not allow this...

Yeah, sorry PO is a french abreviation... you're right this is the focuser 2" smile.gif

 

What I used is called a negative adapter: 2" on the outside with a hole of 1.25" so you cam put the cam inside...

Me I had to built one myself, I took a 2" to 1" adapter (that I received with my collimation laser) and I grinded the part that was over 2" so it could entre the focuser.

Here are the pictures - please ask me if you need more details:

 

48357473_2254801174805128_6352357081479118848_n V2.jpg

 

47577628_1967750889927557_6162855178690101248_n V2.jpg

 

This webstire is selling one but it does not go very deep...

http://www.scopestuff.com/ss_npea.htm


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#58 Ubuntu

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 08:36 AM

Yesterday night laugh.gif moon very present smile.gif

 

Owl Nebula: 140 frames total 70s

Stack_140frames_70s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg

 

M108: 47 frames total 47s

Stack_47frames_47s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg

 

M78: 33 frames total 33s

Stack_33frames_33s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg

 

M42: 46 frames total 12s, stacked at 250ms to avoid to overexpose the center

Stack_46frames_12s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg

 

M81: 240 frames total 240s with 2 rounds

Stack_240frames_240s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg

 

M82: 60 frames total 60s

Stack_60frames_60s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg

 

Moon with FR, 100 ISO

Capture_00006 V2.jpg

 

Moon with Barlow 2X, 100 ISO

Capture_00002 V2.jpg


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#59 SonDob

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 11:10 AM

doesn't need to be a stick, lol. Here my cam before covering everything back with duct tape for dust protection. Helps that the whole camera is not more then 30$ :-)

 

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • cam.png

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#60 Ubuntu

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:17 PM

Nice job :D

 

Sondob, did you calculate the distance between the center of your FR and the CCD captor ?

 

With this figure, you can get your new focal :)



#61 mikenoname

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 12:39 AM

First, sorry for my english... it's not the best smile.gif

 

A stick camera is a thin camera that you can put entirely inside the focuser 2"... Lots of cam do not allow this...

Yeah, sorry PO is a french abreviation... you're right this is the focuser 2" smile.gif

 

What I used is called a negative adapter: 2" on the outside with a hole of 1.25" so you cam put the cam inside...

Me I had to built one myself, I took a 2" to 1" adapter (that I received with my collimation laser) and I grinded the part that was over 2" so it could entre the focuser.

 

No need for the apology. Your English is waaaaayy better than my French. :)

 

And thank you for the details. That answered everything perfectly!



#62 mikenoname

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 12:41 AM

doesn't need to be a stick, lol. Here my cam before covering everything back with duct tape for dust protection. Helps that the whole camera is not more then 30$ :-)

 

Yikes. And I thought my wife was hard on electronics. lol.gif


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#63 Ubuntu

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 05:39 PM

NGC1300: 54 frames, total 54s

Stack_54frames_54s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg

 

NGC1365, 25 frames, total 25s very low on the horizon... 

Stack_25frames_25s_WithDisplayStretch V2.jpg


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#64 Pcbessa

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 07:45 PM

Ubuntu, regarding the horsehead nebula, what was the Bortle scale on your sky, or where are you located?

Did you saw it visually with a H-beta  filter?

Do you use a focal reducer? And which EP?

 

How about you SonDob? Was your telescope a Orion XT8?

Do you use PushTo?

 

I am very excited as I am about to buy my first 8'' or 10'' Dob, possibly an Orion Intelliscope, but I am still unsure between them (as I want an easy grab and go scope). Its exciting to know that you can do simple EAA without any tracking!

 

I also considered the Skywatcher 200p which has GoTo (and the reason was doing simple EAA). But now I realize that probably there is no advantage to the GoTo system on a Dob, as you can do EAA without the GoTo. Am I correct thinking this way? Between PushTo and GoTO I probably would prefer PushTo as its cheaper, quieter and less hassle with power drain.


Edited by Pcbessa, 28 January 2019 - 08:00 PM.


#65 Ubuntu

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 05:35 AM

Ubuntu, regarding the horsehead nebula, what was the Bortle scale on your sky, or where are you located?

Did you saw it visually with a H-beta  filter?

Do you use a focal reducer? And which EP?

 

How about you SonDob? Was your telescope a Orion XT8?

Do you use PushTo?

 

I am very excited as I am about to buy my first 8'' or 10'' Dob, possibly an Orion Intelliscope, but I am still unsure between them (as I want an easy grab and go scope). Its exciting to know that you can do simple EAA without any tracking!

 

I also considered the Skywatcher 200p which has GoTo (and the reason was doing simple EAA). But now I realize that probably there is no advantage to the GoTo system on a Dob, as you can do EAA without the GoTo. Am I correct thinking this way? Between PushTo and GoTO I probably would prefer PushTo as its cheaper, quieter and less hassle with power drain.

Hi PC bessa, I don't know the bortle scale of my sky (level 3 maybe) but its quality is quite ok smile.gif

I don't have a H-beta filter...

Yes I use a FR (see my first post)... EP ? I don't know what is it ?

 

My answer regarding the push-to, goto or nothing would be: Take the goto if you can... with the goto you can image until 30s. Me I will never be able to have a perfect picture because in 500ms or 1s the stars are still moving.

Because I cannot expose more than 1s, I have to have an agressive reduction with a FR, which gives me some coma.

In conclusion I can do EAA (and I´m very happy with it) but I have quite some limitations because of not being able to track...

 

Hope it helps


Edited by Ubuntu, 29 January 2019 - 06:30 AM.

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#66 Pcbessa

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 12:44 PM

Hi Ubuntu, I'm from Portugal so I know the skies there. I am living in Scotland, also good skies. But weather unpredictable and summer night is too bright for observations.

Do you use coma reduction?

I understand you reduce focal lenght from 1200mm F4.7 to about half to achieve F2.5 or F2.

Do you have problems with focus?
And sorry for my ignorant question (never tried EAA): do you have an eyepiece between the sensor a d the telescope? I wouldn't assume so.

Can you stack with multiple stacks by repositing the object back in place and restarting a new set of 200-500ms pics. Does camera and software allow that?

How is EAA for planets? Do you see great imaging for Jupiter and Saturn?

I have been thinking about the Dob to buy. The problem with having a GoTo is the need for an external 12v battery (at least for the Skyliner Dob), more weight, less practicality, also noise. I want a grab and go telescope. But would love to experiment with EAA too.

#67 Ubuntu

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 01:35 PM

Hi Ubuntu, I'm from Portugal so I know the skies there. I am living in Scotland, also good skies. But weather unpredictable and summer night is too bright for observations.

Do you use coma reduction?

I understand you reduce focal lenght from 1200mm F4.7 to about half to achieve F2.5 or F2.

Do you have problems with focus?
And sorry for my ignorant question (never tried EAA): do you have an eyepiece between the sensor a d the telescope? I wouldn't assume so.

Can you stack with multiple stacks by repositing the object back in place and restarting a new set of 200-500ms pics. Does camera and software allow that?

How is EAA for planets? Do you see great imaging for Jupiter and Saturn?

I have been thinking about the Dob to buy. The problem with having a GoTo is the need for an external 12v battery (at least for the Skyliner Dob), more weight, less practicality, also noise. I want a grab and go telescope. But would love to experiment with EAA too.

Hi PCbessa smile.gif I'm french but living in Portugal smile.gif BTW I leave in Fundão... don't know if you know... smile.gif

For your questions... feel free to ask... no stupid question and I'm glad to answer if I can...

 

Coma reduction: No so I have some coma... but anyway even at 500ms the stars are moving slightly so the quality will never be the same as with a tracking telescope

 

I reduced my focal lengh of 1.88 instead of 4.7... fortunately because otherwise I could not be able to stack

 

Focus: I have a backfocus which means my camera is inside my PO: that is why I use a stick camera: with the FR, the new focal point is 66mm backwards

 

No eyepiece between the sensor and the telescope

 

Yes I can reposition and stack again most of the time, sharpcap allows that

 

For planets I haven't done anything with the cam yet... just with the iphone (before i got the cam) so I cannot really tell you but with a non tracking dobson you have to make a movie of the planet passing in the FOV and then use the following soft: PIPP and registax6 to make some lucky imaging and have a good picture...

For me EAA does not really apply for planets... it's better with naked eyes or to treat the movies afterwards...


Edited by Ubuntu, 29 January 2019 - 01:36 PM.


#68 Pcbessa

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 05:54 PM

Thanks Ubuntu.

 

Yes, I have been in Serra da Estrela near you, if weather is dry, skies there are astonishing in winter time, at around 1000m high. At least class 3 skies if not 2.

 

Your answers are quite valuable!

Could you upload a picture of your whole setup?

 

One dumb question I have is you have to run the stacking on real-time with the computer plugged-in, or can you just capture with the sensor and transfer the data afterwards in the comfort of your house, for processing/stacking?

 

What's the PO when you state that the camera is inside the PO?

 

And with smartphone, I am curious, do you get nice pics of planets?

 

 

I will buy a Dobsodian this week, and I am asking these questions, just to consider whether or not buying a GoTo system.

 

 

 

 

Hi PCbessa smile.gif I'm french but living in Portugal smile.gif BTW I leave in Fundão... don't know if you know... smile.gif

For your questions... feel free to ask... no stupid question and I'm glad to answer if I can...

 

Coma reduction: No so I have some coma... but anyway even at 500ms the stars are moving slightly so the quality will never be the same as with a tracking telescope

 

I reduced my focal lengh of 1.88 instead of 4.7... fortunately because otherwise I could not be able to stack

 

Focus: I have a backfocus which means my camera is inside my PO: that is why I use a stick camera: with the FR, the new focal point is 66mm backwards

 

No eyepiece between the sensor and the telescope

 

Yes I can reposition and stack again most of the time, sharpcap allows that

 

For planets I haven't done anything with the cam yet... just with the iphone (before i got the cam) so I cannot really tell you but with a non tracking dobson you have to make a movie of the planet passing in the FOV and then use the following soft: PIPP and registax6 to make some lucky imaging and have a good picture...

For me EAA does not really apply for planets... it's better with naked eyes or to treat the movies afterwards...


Edited by Pcbessa, 29 January 2019 - 05:55 PM.


#69 Ubuntu

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 06:48 PM

Thanks Ubuntu.

 

Yes, I have been in Serra da Estrela near you, if weather is dry, skies there are astonishing in winter time, at around 1000m high. At least class 3 skies if not 2.

 

Your answers are quite valuable!

Could you upload a picture of your whole setup?

 

One dumb question I have is you have to run the stacking on real-time with the computer plugged-in, or can you just capture with the sensor and transfer the data afterwards in the comfort of your house, for processing/stacking?

 

What's the PO when you state that the camera is inside the PO?

 

And with smartphone, I am curious, do you get nice pics of planets?

 

 

I will buy a Dobsodian this week, and I am asking these questions, just to consider whether or not buying a GoTo system.

Yes... I was thinking Bortle 4 but maybe 3 indeed smile.gif

 

Pictures of my setup with my negative adapter (you will not need one if you put a FR because you'll have a flextube):

48275710_565925510498367_7582993794514026496_n V2.jpg

47577628_1967750889927557_6162855178690101248_n V2.jpg

 

You can do real time stacking while keeping the pictures for later processing, or do one or the other...

 

Sorry PO was in french... it's the focuser...

 

For saturn... the only one i could get for the moment with my iphone + PIPP + registax6:

GFUA8379_pipp Final V5.jpg

 

If you can, take a goto... you will no regret it... Me when i can I'll buy a goto system...


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#70 Pcbessa

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 05:02 PM

Ubuntu, you may have changed my mind and inspired me!

 

I was considering buying at the Orion XT8i or Xt10i but now I am looking forward for the Orion XT8g (it has a GoTo instead of PushTo).

It is still within my budget, and I would stick with the 8 inch Dob, because perhaps the 10 inch is too heavy and expensive for me. It will NOT be a flextube, so I would have to use a focal reducer ideally.

 

I have a few more questions to ask you, as you have a 10 inch Orion Dob:

 

  • When you place the sensor/ camera on the telescope, does it tip the balance of the optical tube because of the heavy weight of the sensor? I heard people complaining about that when putting 2" heavy eyepieces (like 38mm) on these Dobs? Have this happened to you?
  • The second question is how do you actually carry around the optical tube? It seems difficult to hold it, without having anything else to grasp it, except for the finderscope. How do you do it? Do you have a bag to carry it or store it? Or do you carry it with a handcart or wheelbarrow? I may need to walk 2-3min from the house to my observation spot. 
  • Can I place the focal reducer easily on the scope, or does it require modifications? 

Edited by Pcbessa, 30 January 2019 - 05:20 PM.


#71 Ubuntu

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 05:41 PM

 

Ubuntu, you may have changed my mind and inspired me!

 

I was considering buying at the Orion XT8i or Xt10i but now I am looking forward for the Orion XT8g (it has a GoTo instead of PushTo).

It is still within my budget, and I would stick with the 8 inch Dob, because perhaps the 10 inch is too heavy and expensive for me. It will NOT be a flextube, so I would have to use a focal reducer ideally.

 

I have a few more questions to ask you, as you have a 10 inch Orion Dob:

 

  • When you place the sensor/ camera on the telescope, does it tip the balance of the optical tube because of the heavy weight of the sensor? I heard people complaining about that when putting 2" heavy eyepieces (like 38mm) on these Dobs? Have this happened to you?
  • The second question is how do you actually carry around the optical tube? It seems difficult to hold it, without having anything else to grasp it, except for the finderscope. How do you do it? Do you have a bag to carry it or store it? Or do you carry it with a handcart or wheelbarrow? I may need to walk 2-3min from the house to my observation spot. 
  • Can I place the focal reducer easily on the scope, or does it require modifications? 

 

Pcbessa, I'm sure you will not be disappointed by the goto smile.gif

 

You will use (or not) the FR... if you have a goto, you don't need to use it but don't forget that in EAA the F/D is more important than the diameter of your telescope. You'll have a F/D 6 therefore I'd advise you tu use a X0,5 reducer that will give you F/D 3, which will reduce you exposure time by 4 compared to F/D 6

 

No pb of weight... my cam is as heavy as a normal eyepiece... so I don't need to do anything...

 

To carry the tube I have two "handles" which I got when I bought a matress in IKEA... they have a velcro on it... see the picture below:

42909284_274516436502301_4865487971094102016_n.jpg.23d43a4c91366b4933ad948c1695f6ad V2.jpg

 

You place the FR on the cam, not on the scope... usually your camera comes with a spacer that you screw on the cam and the FR is screwed on the spacer. If you take the orion and not the flextube you might have to get a negative adaptator for your cam to go inside the focuser, see below:

47577628_1967750889927557_6162855178690101248_n V2.jpg


Edited by Ubuntu, 30 January 2019 - 05:44 PM.

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#72 Howie1

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 06:20 PM

You can get longer bolts to hold the primary mirror further inside the tube. That pushes the focal point further out of the focuser. IE you may reach focus with the reduced camera without having to make the adaptor.

 

Some people I know have actually cut 25 mm off the tube itself down near the primary mirror. Take the mirror cell off first ... of course! Then once you've cut off 25mm, redrill holes for the primary mirror screws to attach the cell to the tube. Shortening the tube does the same as written above ... moves the focus point further out of the focuser which allows their reduced cameras to come to focus without any problems. 

 

If you do either of the above, then eyepieces will more than likely need an extension tube in order to come to focus (if you also wish to continue to do visual astronomy with the scope).

 

But the above methods do work. Did it to my 12" dob so a Canon APS-C sensor would reach focus.



#73 Howie1

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 06:52 PM

As a noob to EAA, I do wonder if starting out attempting EAA with a manual push-to dob is a good idea? You'll get stars but to get even the bright nebula's you will have to push the software (like SharpCap) with lots of knowledge on how that (to a noob) software works! Search for threads on Cloudynights from astrojedi who has proved it an be done. He has incredible knowledge concerning all camera sensor technology and lots of advance experience in Sharpcap and others. He may chime in here to help you ... because it absolutely CAN be done. But in my opinion to start out ... with no experience in EAA ... at least get a GoTo dob to start with. 

 

A friend of mine has done heaps of EAA with a goto dob and hopefully he won't mind me sharing some of his journey from his flickr account. Just watch the images change as he learnt to use the dob and camera and MOST importantly the software Sharpcap and also Astrotoaster ... both of these he mastered with experience. He accepted the initial shots would be so-so ... but pushed on and grew with his experience. Its a great journey!

 

Link to photo which got him interested ... normal camera and lens lunar eclipse ...

 

https://flic.kr/p/xWjuJ4

 

Then came this ... a goto dob with his canon mounted on it ....

 

https://flic.kr/p/xhcw5B

 

which lead to this ... https://flic.kr/p/xWWZmS   and this ... https://flic.kr/p/xhEQSH and this ... https://flic.kr/p/yffoCD

 

which lead to a better true astro cam on the dob, and other cams on the same dob, as well as several tubes on the same dob .... and IMPORTANTLY a counterweight on a sliding rail system in order to balance the whole thing (so the ALT motor was still able to push the whole heavy weight skywards! ... https://flic.kr/p/VS8uZa

 

Which lead to shots like this on that dob ... lots of shots in this album link ... here's what you can do IF you push past the equipment and software learning and just keep pushing to the limit ... even on a dob! ... just masterful given its on that crazy heavy loaded dob! Just fantastic stuff .... https://flic.kr/s/aHskGspbb6

 

Now, years later he has only just got an EQ mount. So moral of this story of his and my post on this thread  .... .............

1. be prepared for everyone to tell you every scope and camera is better ... BUT just push with what you can afford and have available to start with. Push to the limit!

2. be prepared to struggle working out what all the controls in the software do ... WE ALL DO ... EVERYONEs first shots are not the best ! LOL Just push it as hard as you can ... it teaches you something EVERY time.

3. want to throw another camera and OTA or two or three on the dob ... you'll be told to buy another mount or two or three ... push like my friend did and creatively balance with a sliding rail counterbalance system ... and learn, learn, learn.

4. Finally when you do reach the stage where you are a "guru" with your equipment ... you'll know exactly what the next equipment - mount, scope, camera and software - you need to get to. And to get lots of beaut objects and images. Then and only then (in my opinion) should you maybe worry about hooking it up to operate remotely, with rasp pi and small intel repeaters and platesolving and autoguiding and ..... etc

 

cheers


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#74 Oukifrench

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 03:27 AM

hello laurent you have become a star of the eaa wonderful.I see you give vocation to our friends.excelentes explanations of your technique your results are surprising.

Ouki


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#75 Ubuntu

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 07:25 AM

hello laurent you have become a star of the eaa wonderful.I see you give vocation to our friends.excelentes explanations of your technique your results are surprising.

Ouki

Thanks Ouki smile.gif

You should post more often here to advise us smile.gif especially in the CCTV + IMX224 post smile.gif :

https://www.cloudyni...r-rt224-camera/


Edited by Ubuntu, 03 February 2019 - 07:31 AM.



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