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#51 starcanoe

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 11:13 AM

We had our local astronomy meeting last Friday....as we were talking out in the parking lot a security person came up...I told her that we would be having a gaze there Sunday night...she mentioned something about the blood/wolf/moon thingy....I told her in jest it was the hyper moon....



#52 Astroman007

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 01:03 PM

 BTW, a qualified person should update the Deer Lick page on Wikipedia, Their article could use a sentence or two about the origins of its name. wink.gif

Something about one deep-sky observer's particularly inspiring views of the small galaxy grouping from the Deer Lick Gap, as I recall.

 

But then you have M83, the "Southern Pinwheel"...

 

...and all the other "Southern" this or that.  Rather boreosupremacist, if you ask me.  grin.gif

 

Then again, there is no Northern Cross!  Yet...

Oh? Never heard of Cygnus?


Edited by Astroman007, 23 January 2019 - 01:04 PM.

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#53 Astroman007

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 01:05 PM

We had our local astronomy meeting last Friday....as we were talking out in the parking lot a security person came up...I told her that we would be having a gaze there Sunday night...she mentioned something about the blood/wolf/moon thingy....I told her in jest it was the hyper moon....

You didn't tell her that the "Blood Moon" thing was BS?

 

Oh, for a plain man.



#54 Araguaia

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 01:34 PM

According to Wikipedia Almond Joy is made by Hershey's, and Milky Way is made by Mars.

 

 

Wait... a planet makes a galaxy?

 

And what is the NGC number of Almond Joy in the Hershey Catalog?



#55 nicoyenny

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 01:37 PM

Well, thanks to the xtra-long name and the media hype, we had an incredible crowd on our Outreach star party last Sunday. In fact, some people even bought telescopes from that day, and that is music to my ears :)


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#56 Heywood

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 01:57 PM

Hey, if it makes you happy, call em as you see fit. Who knows, the name may stick. As to the moon, well:

 

 - A super moon occurs when the full moon is at its closest point to Earth. This means it appears bigger and brighter than usual.

 - It's called a "blood moon" because, from Earth, the moon appears blood red as it passes into Earth's shadow.

 - The first Full Moon of the year is named after howling wolves, hence Wolf Moon.

 

There is some logic in the naming convention, although it is really getting a bit too long wink.gif

 

In my experience, sometimes the Moon appears reddish during a total lunar eclipse and sometimes it does not.  It is never truly blood red. 

 

We live in a ridiculous age.  People are as dumb and gullible and irrational as ever, and the Internet does not help.

 

And, after decades in amateur astronomy, I have never heard the phrase "Wolf Moon."  And "Supermoon" is just some word that a marketing major dreamed up.


Edited by Heywood, 23 January 2019 - 02:00 PM.

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#57 vdog

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 03:33 PM

Since we are on the subject of naming, I think a lot of things in space whose names are based on being red aren't even red.  They're orange.

 

Are any "red" stars actually red?  All the ones I've looked at are orange.

 

"Blood moon" certainly sounds cooler than "Tropicana moon."  But the latter would be more accurate.  The moon looked pretty orange to me Sunday night.  Ok, maybe we can go with "blood orange moon."

 

And you know why the eclipsed moon looked like Mars?  Because Mars is orange!  However, "The Orange Planet" just doesn't cut it as a cool name.

 

Poor orange, the most dissed color in the spectrum.


Edited by vdog, 23 January 2019 - 04:24 PM.

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#58 Jim4321

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 03:49 PM

Sorry to interject some gory reality into this thread, but "blood moon" is a old farmers' term, for the late fall moon when it's time to slaughter and preserve the livestock they can't keep (feed and shelter) over-winter. Slaughtering animals can be messy.   I knew old country folks back in the 60's who used the term in its true meaning.   How it got transposed to the eclipsed moon, only the marketing department knows.

 

Jim H.


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#59 spaceoddity

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Posted 23 January 2019 - 05:45 PM

But then you have M83, the "Southern Pinwheel"...

 

...and all the other "Southern" this or that.  Rather boreosupremacist, if you ask me.  grin.gif

 

Then again, there is no Northern Cross!  Yet...

There certainly is a Northern Cross. It's also known as Cygnus-X.



#60 Simon B

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 04:00 AM

My own name for the blood moon is the 'burning moon' - it turns fire red, like its ablaze, just looks so cool...

 

Yeah naming is fascinating, but it can also go too far for sure. Ofcourse 'super blood wolf moon' or 'super blue blood moon' are just created to try and arouse interest, that's fine I guess

 

 

 

I've often been confused by the name 'blinking planetary' (NGC6826) - is it because the central star 'blinks' in and out of vision? It causes further confusion to me because 'blinking' a planetary is also an observing technique whereby you move an O-III filter between your eye and the eyepiece - allowing you to quickly identify a planetary nebula in a starfield



#61 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 04:03 AM

Dave:

 

I never claimed all common names were descriptive,  a good number are and for me, that adds to the intrigue and interest.  And my old brain certainly remembers the Blue Snowball or the Blue Flash better than their respective NGC designations . Likewise with the Northern Jewel Box/Table of Scorpius . This magnificent region needs a name more descriptive than NGC 6231.. If I remembered that correctly .

 

There's a wonderful place my wife and I enjoy visiting .  It's located at 36.0408188 N  111.8264464W . Some folks call it the Grand Canyon.. .

 

Just saying ..

 

Jon

Jon,

 

I think you're missing my point.  Of course, it's easier for people to remember a name than a number, particularly if it actually has some meaning behind it.  Giving frivolous names and often multiple names to deep-sky objects is not only silly but a source of confusion to novices.


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#62 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 05:36 AM

Jon,

 

I think you're missing my point.  Of course, it's easier for people to remember a name than a number, particularly if it actually has some meaning behind it.  Giving frivolous names and often multiple names to deep-sky objects is not only silly but a source of confusion to novices.

 

I guess we just have to disagree.  I personally find object names add to my enjoyment. As with anything,  there are examples of excess but on the whole , I think they're a plus.  I have always enjoyed that aspect .  

 

As far as multiple names .. How different is that from multiple catalog numbers?  The Andromeda galaxy has at least 8 catalog numbers .. I am fine with both "the Table of Scorpius" and "the northern jewel box" for NGC6231/C76.

 

Jon


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#63 Araguaia

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 07:06 AM

 

 

Are any "red" stars actually red?  All the ones I've looked at are orange.

 

 

Carbon stars are little rubies in the sky...


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#64 tchandler

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 08:48 AM

You might be interested to note that a few centuries ago, the colour orange was considered to be a shade of red. The robin red breast, red fox, and red squirrel were all given their names when orange did not yet exist as such. These animals are all plainly orange and not red.

 

Which name came first: orange (the fruit) or orange (the colour)? 


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#65 Araguaia

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 08:54 AM

You might be interested to note that a few centuries ago, the colour orange was considered to be a shade of red. The robin red breast, red fox, and red squirrel were all given their names when orange did not yet exist as such. These animals are all plainly orange and not red.

 

 

They are neither.  To my eye, they are all different colors.  In Portuguese we call it "castanho" - chestnut, and it is akin to light brown.  These animals, like most birds and mammals, are different shades of reddish chestnut, though the fox might have a bit of orange.


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#66 Astroman007

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 12:39 PM

Carbon stars are little rubies in the sky...

That they are!



#67 tchandler

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:46 PM

They are neither.  To my eye, they are all different colors.  In Portuguese we call it "castanho" - chestnut, and it is akin to light brown.  These animals, like most birds and mammals, are different shades of reddish chestnut, though the fox might have a bit of orange.

Obrigado, Araguaia.

 

Interesting. There are millions of hues, and orange or red don’t really describe them well.

 

It may be a cultural thing as well. The Wuarani people of South America, who live along the River of Poisons, a tributary of the Amazon, do not distinguish between blue and green as they equate the canopy of the forest to the canopy of the sky. 



#68 NorthernlatAK

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:54 PM

Since we are on the subject of naming, I think a lot of things in space whose names are based on being red aren't even red. They're orange.

Are any "red" stars actually red? All the ones I've looked at are orange.

"Blood moon" certainly sounds cooler than "Tropicana moon." But the latter would be more accurate. The moon looked pretty orange to me Sunday night. Ok, maybe we can go with "blood orange moon."

And you know why the eclipsed moon looked like Mars? Because Mars is orange! However, "The Orange Planet" just doesn't cut it as a cool name.

Poor orange, the most dissed color in the spectrum.

Take a look at T lyra, or R Leporis. Truly red stars to my eyes
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#69 vdog

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:19 PM

Take a look at T lyra, or R Leporis. Truly red stars to my eyes

Now that's more like it!

 

Anything in Lyra will have to wait, but I'll target that "crimson star" tonight!



#70 NorthernlatAK

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:51 PM

From my latitude lyra never sets. T lyra is my year round "red fix".

#71 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:54 PM

Carbon stars are little rubies in the sky...

Some of them are.  Others often appear more orangish than red.  

Carbon stars range in hue from pumpkin orange to deep cinnabar red, and when surrounded by more common blue-white or yellow stars, carbon colors seem all the more remarkable.

The intensity of the color also depends upon at what point the star is in its period.

 

Carbon stars appear redder when they’re at their minimum, but of course they’re also dimmer and may be beyond the limits of your equipment.

 

https://www.skyandte...g-carbon-stars/

All carbon stars are variable stars — the reason for their letter designations — and vary in brightness with periods that range from a couple months to more than a year. Perception of star color has much to do with a star's brightness. One star might be touted as redder than another, but if it's on the bright end of its cycle, shining at 6th or 7th magnitude, the color will look less saturated than it does when the star hovers near minimum. R Leporis, better known as "Hind's Crimson Star," is an intensely red ember when in the magnitude 9 or 10 range. Presently around magnitude 6.5, it looks washed out in comparison. Scope size also plays into carbon star color, making each person's experience different.

https://www.skyandte...-red1203201401/

 

Some of the ruddiest carbon stars include V Aquilae, S Cephei, DY Crucis, V Hydrae, R Leporis, and T Lyrae. 

 

There's more on carbon stars at http://www.astronomy...dest_stars.pdf 

 

Dave Mitsky

 


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#72 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 03:14 PM

As far as multiple names .. How different is that from multiple catalog numbers?  The Andromeda galaxy has at least 8 catalog numbers .. I am fine with both "the Table of Scorpius" and "the northern jewel box" for NGC6231/C76.

It's quite different.  Few amateur astronomers know the Andromeda Galaxy by anything other than M31 or perhaps, and that's a big perhaps, NGC 224.  When somebody says that they observed the Kachina Doll Cluster last night, how many observers will know just what they are talking about?
 

By the way, the Table of Scorpius refers to a rather large area in southern Scorpius and not just NGC 6231.  NGC 6231 is also part of the so-called False Comet.

 

https://www.cloudyni...-scorpius-r2564

 

Dave Mitsky



#73 JimK

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 04:45 PM

...  When somebody says that they observed the Kachina Doll Cluster last night, how many observers will know just what they are talking about? ...

Dave Mitsky

I *did* recognize it as the Owl Cluster/NGC 457 in Cassiopeia, however, there are far too many "common" names for me to remember, so I often rely on the little book "Deep-Sky Name Index 2000.0" © 1991, by Hugh C. Maddocks (who passed in 2008). Over the years it has come in handy, although I have had to pencil-in dozens of entries for the ever growing abundance of new "nicknames". (And I just added "Kachina Doll Cluster", as well as "Skiing Cluster", for NGC 457 ... sigh.)

 

And I REALLY DO NOT LIKE nicknames such as "The Deer Lick" galaxy group (for NGC 7331 et al), which was nicknamed because someone (Tom Lorenzin, who passed in 2014) had a good night observing this object (at the Deer Lick Gap in North Carolina in the mid-80s).


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#74 careysub

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 05:48 PM

My thinking about deep space objects and names:

 

Names are easier to remember than alphanumeric designations.  Anything that helps me remember something is good. 

I agree, but the problem is not have common names, so much as making up a plethora of them for the same object. Many objects have had names that are long established, and using those is helpful. But if you have to start playing guessing games... not so helpful.

 

Just the other day I posted on a thread here complaining about the use of obscure Arabic names for stars, never used in European science or star lore, but discovered since the 1970s and slapping those on stars well know for centuries by their Bayer designation.

 

Even alphanumeric designations don't automatically gain any sort of priority since there are multiple catalogs, with the same object having different designations. But at least these are unambiguous, even if redundant.

 

Personally I am promoting the use of the "Arkenstone Cluster" for M22, which was inspired by Robert Burnham (who compared M22 to the Arkenstone from "The Hobbit" in his famous Celestial Handbook) and has been adopted by Rod Mollise. So I am not against adopting new names for known objects per se.


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#75 careysub

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 05:53 PM

You might be interested to note that a few centuries ago, the colour orange was considered to be a shade of red. The robin red breast, red fox, and red squirrel were all given their names when orange did not yet exist as such. These animals are all plainly orange and not red.

 

Which name came first: orange (the fruit) or orange (the colour)? 

Orange, the fruit, from the Persian narang, referring to the fruitIn English "orange" referred to the fruit only for some three centuries before it was used as a color name.

 

With the modern marketing-driven proliferation of color-names ("eggshell", "avocado", etc.) perhaps future English speakers will wonder about which came first with those color-names.


Edited by careysub, 24 January 2019 - 06:00 PM.



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