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Teething pain w the IEQ45

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#1 Ballyhoo

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:00 AM

I remember that the AVX was also a handful to get all dialed in to image; but just as I dialed the AVX in, i got the IEQ45 and now I am starting over. There are some who may characterize that as and after tonight I almost feel like just going out w the AVX for a while and having trouble free, learning curve free imaging. m For any of you familiar with this mount, if you ever heard a sound, not too different from screeching, but not quite that high pitched, at some point at the end a my session it sounded as if the RA and dec rubbed against each-other. that lost the goto..   Anyways my tracking was God awful. I am not sure if i just had beginners luck the very first night i went out i had enjoyed some really  nice 2 min unguided subs but then my power died. Tonight  I had no power issues per say, but the mount acted as if there was no tracking -- strange because I entered in commander and the handset tracking and sidereal rate. So, I went to Phd2 and that somewhat pulled the chestnuts out of the fire and took me from an unbearable situation to a fair one. Still I imagine if your tracking is really off there is only so much to be done with Phd2 and nonetheless i was getting an error message of which i was not sure how to remedy My pic of that is kind of hard to read but should anyone know hw to amend this please let me know. Message was to the effect that RA was off, needed to be adjusted.

:;;

 

 

The AVX is sitten pretty right now!

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#2 Ballyhoo

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:02 AM

Okay so the above reads " your max RA setting is preventing PHd from keeping the guide star location locked. increase the max RA duration setting to allow phd2 to make the needed corrections."

 

well least phd was kind enough to let me know the problem, not that it told me how to fix it on the fly, in the dark and cold.

 

Being out at night min dark and cold  is the worst time to troubleshoot. 


Edited by mantrain, 24 January 2019 - 01:05 AM.

 

#3 ZL4PLM

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:39 AM

ok i cant see what your stars look like 

 

it looks inverted or overly bright - should be a black screen with stars

 

loop at 2 secs and then the let it autoselect a star and then start guiding 

 

It will need to do a calibration run too 

 

how far have you got in setting PHD2 up?


 

#4 rockstarbill

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:44 AM

Your Polar Alignment is bad. 

 

/thread


 

#5 Ballyhoo

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:53 AM

Your Polar Alignment is bad. 

 

/thread

how can you tell that? not saying it's not true but sometimes the "bad PA" is a catch all.  

 

for the above post. stars look like this w guide


Edited by mantrain, 24 January 2019 - 02:02 AM.

 

#6 rockstarbill

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:55 AM

how can you tell that? not saying it's not true but sometimes the "bad PA" is a catch all.  

 

for the above post. stars look like this w guide

The DEC axis tells the story. I might actually know a thing or two about polar alignment, and periodic error for that matter. 

 

Good reading for you: https://www.cloudyni...gers-read-this/


 

#7 Ballyhoo

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:08 AM

The DEC axis tells the story. I might actually know a thing or two about polar alignment, and periodic error for that matter. 

 

Good reading for you: https://www.cloudyni...gers-read-this/

but when you mention PA, i dont think i was that far off polaris to have such crappy tracking.  i think that may have been part, but bad PA should not give star trails at 30 sec subs like i got.  there was something else  too.


 

#8 Ballyhoo

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:12 AM

The DEC axis tells the story. I might actually know a thing or two about polar alignment, and periodic error for that matter. 

 

Good reading for you: https://www.cloudyni...gers-read-this/

plus isn't your post for AP and Paramounts?


 

#9 ZL4PLM

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:22 AM

do your self a favour - download Sharpcap Pro and buy a licence - use your guidescope/cam and the polar align tool in Sharpcap 

 

takes me minutes now to align within a few arcseconds and no further pain in polar aligining - in the south we can hardly see it anyway 

 

:)


 

#10 rockstarbill

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:30 AM

it takes practice with a new unfamiliar mount. this was my only second time taking it out.    I find it harder to practice also  at night in the dark and cold. if i could set up in the comfort of my own home it would be easier  to learn. i also ran into unexpected occurrences with my new mount.

http://www.ccdware.c...roducts/pempro/

 

Trial should work for a full Polar Alignment sequence. Stop settings things up and hoping it turns out good.

 

Send me a tell if you need help setting this up. I will even sit with you on the phone and watching via TeamViewer if you want. I have helped dozens and dozens of people here on CN with alignment and with Periodic Error correction. 

 

Note: This cannot be done inside. You must have stars in the sky to use, and for the most part a visual path to the south. 


Edited by Jaimo!, 25 January 2019 - 06:06 PM.

 

#11 Ballyhoo

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:33 AM

i min guided

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#12 rockstarbill

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:38 AM

Upload the actual frame. This tells me nothing at all. But from the 1000 ft view it can show, this looks really bad and it looks like the bad here is due to... wait for it.... field rotation (aka.. Polar Alignment Error). 


Edited by rockstarbill, 24 January 2019 - 02:39 AM.

 

#13 Ballyhoo

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:45 AM

http://www.ccdware.c...roducts/pempro/

 

Trial should work for a full Polar Alignment sequence. Stop settings things up and hoping it turns out good.

 

Send me a tell if you need help setting this up. I will even sit with you on the phone and watching via TeamViewer if you want. I have helped dozens and dozens of people here on CN with alignment and with Periodic Error correction. 

that would be very helpful for sure i do read the documentation but i do not have a habit of not  it all w me to the darksite and i dont necessarily recall all the sequences at first. for like tonight i had to get the polar scope so that the clock had 12 facing on the top but to do that i had to slew the ra in such a fashion that the shaft (which was not yet installed) was also facing 12:00 to the sky) and that seemed uncanny.; could that have been correct starting point for putting polaris in the polar scope? what is tougher for those of us that do not park our scope we always need to find polaris again. Who knows, it stragner things in life have happened that maybe it wasnt polaris i was aligning. but i saw no other bright stars in the area. I think my competency does decline in the cold though. I shiver and want to go back in the heated car but i just tough it out -- i think i need to prepare better for the chill factor. when it dips into the 40's my bones ache and my brain slows down.


Edited by Jaimo!, 25 January 2019 - 06:07 PM.

 

#14 rockstarbill

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:49 AM

that would be very helpful for sure i do read the documentation but i do not have a habit of not  it all w me to the darksite and i dont necessarily recall all the sequences at first. for like tonight i had to get the polar scope so that the clock had 12 facing on the top but to do that i had to slew the ra in such a fashion that the shaft (which was not yet installed) was also facing 12:00 to the sky) and that seemed uncanny.; could that have been correct starting point for putting polaris in the polar scope? what is tougher for those of us that do not park our scope we always need to find polaris again. Who knows, it stragner things in life have happened that maybe it wasnt polaris i was aligning. but i saw no other bright stars in the area. I think my competency does decline in the cold though. I shiver and want to go back in the heated car but i just tough it out -- i think i need to prepare better for the chill factor. when it dips into the 40's my bones ache and my brain slows down.

I dont and have never used a Polar Scope. The software I linked to you will work well, if you can see the southern sky. It will run through a calibration sequence with your camera so it knows the scale, and what is north, south, east west. Then it asks you to slew somewhere, then shows you the error and which direction to correct, you correct it, then test again. Repeat that until you have ~30 arc-seconds (or at least less than 1 arc-minute) of error in each axis. When you first use the software it will take you a bit to do, once you are adept at it, it takes like 2 corrections at the most to get it aligned. Its deadly accurate. More accurate than Polemaster and more accurate than SharpCap. It does take LONGER than those two methods though, as you should not make any corrections at all for at least 4 minutes per run. 

 

It does help to use something like SharpCap to get initially aligned. Then the PEMPro sequence is super fast to dial it in finely. I use Polemaster myself to rough align, and PEMPro to get it dialed in perfectly. I am willing to spend that time on alignment though, as I use pointing/tracking models to clean up the remainder and those work best when you are very well aligned. I also record PEMPro PE Curves annually and when I do, I make sure my PEMPro alignment is as tight as possible.

 

Thus the results I told you to read. 

 

I just trust PEMPro to align my scope, given all of the critical functions I use it for, that it delivers on. 

 

Image Example: https://www.astrobin.../full/380925/F/

 

You should trust it too, IMO. 


Edited by rockstarbill, 24 January 2019 - 02:58 AM.

 

#15 ZL4PLM

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 03:05 AM

https://www.youtube....h?v=391BNEr5TIA

 

min 4.21 on

 

Sharpcap is cheap and fast and easy and accurate - I have a polemaster too and I can say I see no diff 

 

I can get within 3-4 arcs of perfect aligment and most of that error is seeing here in an oceanic climate 

 

its 10 GBP thats what .. 15 bucks ??

 

I challenge anyone not to find it simple and easy to use!

 

You will get a decent alignment and you can then concentrate on setting up and getting accurate tracking then move onto images .. baby steps

 

Like Bill ... I dont own a polar scope either!  Given the low vis of Sigma Oct in the southern pole here - who would! My local dealer doesnt even inc them anymore here in NZ!!!


 

#16 ZL4PLM

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 03:12 AM

https://www.youtube....BUewsMBYg&t=20s

 

This shows the screen for Sharpcap better - just remember to PA your not using the scope hand controller - you use the mounts altitude and azimuth bolts  - the scope and even be turned off!

 

I am not in the north but that video shows polaris and this and how far off the pole is .... hence why you need to know Polaris position for alignment scopes ... 

 

gotta love technology!


 

#17 rockstarbill

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 03:14 AM

Like Bill ... I dont own a polar scope either!  Given the low vis of Sigma Oct in the southern pole here - who would! My local dealer doesnt even inc them anymore here in NZ!!!

PEMPro is the extra frosting on the cupcake though. lol.gif


 

#18 ZL4PLM

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 03:16 AM

PEMPro is the extra frosting on the cupcake though. lol.gif

indeed - but then it should be for 10 x more cost :)    I need to buy it anyway as I try to tune my CGX ... :) 

 

PHD2 has some polar align tools in now - Ill have to try those sometime too !


 

#19 rockstarbill

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 03:20 AM

indeed - but then it should be for 10 x more cost smile.gif    I need to buy it anyway as I try to tune my CGX ... smile.gif

 

PHD2 has some polar align tools in now - Ill have to try those sometime too !

Its PE correction is the best in the industry. Folks with Paramounts that know what they are doing also use PEMPro to correct PE in those mounts, and SkyX has its own tool that IMO is not even close to as good. I tried them both on my MyT, and PEMPro was the clear and easy winner. Its refined curve concept, which I admittedly only used with my Paramount (my 1100 corrects to around 0.3 arc-seconds P-P as was linked earlier) but its pretty cool. 


 

#20 scadvice

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 03:28 AM

I have a suggestion for you ...spend the money for a PoleMaster. I bought one because of back issues and never have looked back. I can pole align with the mounts provided axis scope but it causes a lot of pain. The 300 bucks for the polemaster including the adapters for you mount is worth it. Plate solving sure I'm good with that also. 

 

You sound like your problems are rooted in the same basic issue every time you post and that is polar alignment. Secondary, your PHD2 is most likely not set up correctly... i.e. check the Brain ->Guiding -> calibration ->Focal Length in mm... Next Camera-> pixal size is correct for your guide camera.

 

Now select 'Tools' -> Auto select Star

 

Guild...while your at it change your image check cycle (Or what ever it's called) from 1 sec to 2.5 or 3 sec.

 

Give it a minute running then select under 'Tools' -> Guiding Assistant -> let I run for two minutes then check their

recommendations on the right.

 

If you changed any other numbers that were default reset them. If your still have problems go the PHD2 site and post your log.

 

One other note:

 

If you are setting up and tearing down each night then you need to either:

  - calibrate at the beginning of the session, or
  - ensure that your guide camera angle is the same each night (e.g. mark the position with a piece of tape)

 

**This above could very well be your problem if you moved the guide camera PHD has no clue what is up or down right or left and has not idea how to correct it because it is going off old data from an earlier setup.**

 

Still having problems after all this? Check that the mount is level. and that you have balanced the scope assembly. Check travel on both axis full travel using the slew at max speed. If it buzzes any time you need to readjust zero and adjust the gear knobs for correct position the try again to slew max in both axis full travel.

 

Short of you hauling all you gear up here to Lodi that's all I got for you....yes I'm stuck in Lodi...


Edited by scadvice, 24 January 2019 - 03:58 AM.

 

#21 rgsalinger

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 11:20 AM

I think that a step back here would be helpful.

 

First of all, I was able to use the iOptron Polar Scope (once calibrated) quite effectively for several years to polar align that mount. So, if the OP is using that method, the first thing to do is to follow the instructions for assuring that the polar scope itself is correctly aligned to the mount. Next, I'd like to see a PHD Log and not a bunch of screen shots. That would tell me a lot more than the screen shot. Finally, with guiding set to 1 second and 100 percent aggression it's not going to come out well.

 

I agree that PA is the problem almost certainly. The reason that we are all saying that is because the graph the OP shows indicates that there is an enormous DEC drift in one direction. It's hard to imagine this being caused by anything other than a really bad PA. Again, I think that the polar scope, properly used and calibrated is going to be fine with a refractor of around 600 or 700 mm. To go longer than that you will need a tool to refine the polar alignment error.

 

Rgrds-Ross


 

#22 epdreher

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 11:21 AM

He never said that you don't believe PA is important.  He correctly implied that you're not going to fix your troubles, no matter what mount you own, until you become proficient at consistently and accurately polar aligning a mount.  Practice achieving that until you can almost do it blindfolded.  Sharpcap was suggested.  It doesn't get any less expensive than that.  Don't rush the process, just practice by doing a PA, screwing it up intentionally, and doing it again.  Over and over and over until it gets hammered home.

 

As RSB wrote, your screenshot clearly shows field rotation.  That simply means you haven't yet achieved the accuracy in the polar alignment of your mount that is required before you can progress even to something as basic as tweaking your PHD2 settings.  It just isn't going to happen.

 

You've been given a lot of good advice in what to do.  It's up to you whether or not you want to follow it.  Everyone here has gone through what you're experiencing because there are no shortcuts.

 

And if you're too cold to stay outside for long (San Diego???!!!???) then invest in some good layers of clothing that will enable you to do so.  For those of us in colder climates, such as the high 30s I'll be experiencing tonight, that clothing is more valuable than another piece of new gear.  When you're miserably cold, nothing else will matter.


 

#23 Ballyhoo

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 11:38 AM

He never said that you don't believe PA is important.  He correctly implied that you're not going to fix your troubles, no matter what mount you own, until you become proficient at consistently and accurately polar aligning a mount.  Practice achieving that until you can almost do it blindfolded.  Sharpcap was suggested.  It doesn't get any less expensive than that.  Don't rush the process, just practice by doing a PA, screwing it up intentionally, and doing it again.  Over and over and over until it gets hammered home.

 

As RSB wrote, your screenshot clearly shows field rotation.  That simply means you haven't yet achieved the accuracy in the polar alignment of your mount that is required before you can progress even to something as basic as tweaking your PHD2 settings.  It just isn't going to happen.

 

You've been given a lot of good advice in what to do.  It's up to you whether or not you want to follow it.  Everyone here has gone through what you're experiencing because there are no shortcuts.

 

And if you're too cold to stay outside for long (San Diego???!!!???) then invest in some good layers of clothing that will enable you to do so.  For those of us in colder climates, such as the high 30s I'll be experiencing tonight, that clothing is more valuable than another piece of new gear.  When you're miserably cold, nothing else will matter.

ok well it seems now there is a common understating . But let's not all get (or that one poster anyways) all personal. I really have still minimal experience w the IEQ45 so yeah, PA is crucial. I appreciate all the feedback.


 

#24 timmbottoni

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 11:57 AM

Hi - I have been using the iEQ45 (before the pro model) for a number of years and there are a couple of things that really matter, and one is Polar Alignment.  Your DEC graph (red) is showing huge jumps, so that tells us that you are significantly off, but your RA graph (blue) is very good.  Here are some tips...

 

1) You need to verify that your polar scope is aligned within the mount housing - there are instructions for this from iOptron, I think they are still in their support section.

EDIT ADDED:  It helps if the tripod/mount is level at the start, use the little round bubble level in the front of the mount to get it reasonably level.  Adjust the tripod legs to get it close enough.  It's a cheap level, so just getting it close helps.

2) Once you know its perfect, then you have to make sure you start off in the HOME position.  This means that you have to rotate the mount until the little bubble level is perfectly level (located on the top of where you look into the Polar alignment scope)

3) Once you have those two steps done - you have to POWER CYCLE the mount - turn it off, turn it on, wait until it says GPS "OK" and then you can start to polar align

EDIT ADDED:  Make sure you have the Time Settings correct in the Hand Controller for the Time Offset from GMT, and whether you are currently in DST or not.

4) The hand controller has a display you have to navigate to that shows you the position of Polaris, but a much better way is to get a polar scope app (I have Android phone and its called PolarFinder).  There is one for iOS as well, maybe someone else can give the name.   Choose the right settings, and in PolarFinder, most are intuitive, but make sure you have the Image orientation set to "Telescopic" and the Reticle Type set to "Ioptron".  Using this chart (it needs to get position using GPS of your phone as well) you position Polaris by manually adjusting the Alt and AZ screw controls.

5) Get Polaris EXACTLY where it says it needs to be.

 

I realize that's a lot to digest, but if you do all this, AND have the time settings correct on your hand controller (read manual or ask to make sure its correct) I can almost guarantee that you will be spot on, you can do a ONE STAR alignment, and be done.  

 

And you won't need any other software, as PHD2 already has polar alignment features, but if you just run the Tools > Guiding Assistant as others suggested, it will tell you how far off your polar alignment is.

 

Hope that helps - its too freaking cold here to do anything outside but read and post help, so message me if you prefer any offline conversation.  

 

Glad to help!!!

 

Timm


Edited by timmbottoni, 24 January 2019 - 01:45 PM.

 

#25 epdreher

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 11:59 AM

Once again, it doesn't matter what mount you use to practice and become proficient in PA a scope.

 

It does not matter if your experience is minimal "w the IEQ45", as you wrote.  It matters that your experience is minimal with all mounts.  That is your first hurdle, beyond which you shouldn't be progressing until you've cleared it time and again.  Practice doesn't make perfect.  Perfect practice makes perfect.


 


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