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Goto Optical Metal Case Label Plates

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#1 Stew44

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 01:26 PM

I don't think I have posted this link prior, but the site is copyright protected and specifically says we may not copy text or photos so I will provide the link and discuss.

 

The current telescope representative of Goto Optical Co. is  Mitsuyoshi Kodama (Mitsutoshi Kodama).  He has a blog with weekly, up to monthly or longer, posts that review essentially pre-School telescopes and other optical gear of Goto Optical Co.  This link is to a blog post from 11-19-2018.  It shows a picture of Goto metal case label plates from 1926 (Showa 1 (Year of the Emporer's Reign)) through the present.  It is in Japanese, but if you copy it to translate.google.com and select Japanese to English it works quite well.  While I have seen a couple of these over the last couple of years for which I do not have actual copies, I do currently have three of these labels represented with my Goto telescopes.  The Japanese under each label gives the Showa years that the label was used and the marketing logo.  So for the label on my Apollon you would add 25 to whatever number range is indicated in the caption (S13=1938 - S16=1941).  Two examples of that plate are provided.  The other two I have are the last two in the display.  The differences are subtle, but the Goto in the earlier logo is 'GOTo' for the first (S28=1953 - S29=1954) and 'GOTO' for the second (S30=1955 - Present).

 

https://www.domenavi.../2018/24_1.html

 

Missing from this set is the plate from my Zeus branded Eros that looks like the other Eros label with 'GOTo' in the logo.  Filling in the blanks, this label would run from S4=1929 - S27=1952.  Here is its pic.

 

zeus label.jpg

 

So I have a four year range for my Apollon (1938-1941), and with other data that accompanied the scope I know that the Zeus Eros telescope is (1951-1952), and finally the Goto Eros telescope is (1953-1954).  

 

The last plate isn't very helpful in dating scopes given its length of use.  Fortunately we have inspection tags normally present with many of these later Goto offerings that nail down manufacture dates quite nicely. 

 

So first we are seeing a lot of diversity in early Goto labeling, and second, I am quite fortunate to be able to nail down the early Goto scopes I have to within two to four years of their manufacture dates.


Edited by Stew44, 03 February 2019 - 02:20 PM.

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#2 walter a

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 09:52 PM

So if I read this right this would date 53-54...

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#3 Stew44

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 10:06 PM

Yes sir!

#4 walter a

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 10:47 PM

Great, thanks for the link Stew.



#5 Stew44

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Posted 02 March 2019 - 09:00 PM

One of the charts located in the above link (use Chrome and it asks to automatically translate) is a year by year manufacturing location, whether or not the company was incorporated, and the type of logo on the label.  I am providing a translated version of that with the top rows showing the city (Tokyo), the section of the city, and then the street address separated by dashes.  The timeline across the top of the two sections is in both Gregorian years and Showa years (year of reign of the Emperor).  Beneath that are two rows showing when Goto Optical was a private company and when it was incorporated.  I have added whether or not the labels show patent information or not.  Finally the lower rows show a particular logo type. 

 

Goto Locations and Logos.jpg

 

Things changed pretty rapidly in the first few years on that score, and then settled into Zeus for the pre-WWII years.  You can also see that Goto was a corporation from 1938 to 1941 (my Apollon label shows these incorporation characters and allows me to date it within that range).  Kodama-san did not display in his label picture the Zeus label that accompanied my first Uranus telescope and an Eros telescope, both with patent information. 

 

Goto Zeus Uranus label.jpg

 

Since this label does have patent information I believe that it is dated from when Goto started selling telescopes again after WWII (1947).  Again patent inclusion on the label is for those years in orange.   So I have indicated both a Zeus logo for those years and patents in the label.  Other information on the Eros (instructions date inside lid) allow me to focus further to 1951-52 for that scope.  I can't do any better than '47-52 for the Uranus.

 

PA110457.JPG

 

So I have a pretty clear date for that Eros within two years and the Uranus within six years.  Also I previously thought it a Type 3.5 Uranus (a mix).  The lens cell, the focuser and the lens cap are Type 3.  The attachment of the altitude rod to the OTA is Type 4.  The case build is also Type 4.  Kodama-san looked for changes that would allow him to apply Type 1-5 designations for a Uranus scope.  His complete discussion of Uranus Types is at this site (again Chrome allows direct translations)

 

http://www.domenavi..../2013/05_1.html

 

I think things were a little more fluid, with changes made as they needed to be, and the only capture of current build is in the advertising.  So Type number of Uranus in general is a little fuzzier.  Finally, since we know that the label on my Apollon case was the last label used before the war; and the patent adds were after the war; and that the Uranus Type 4 designated by Kodama-san was built from '47 to '54, that my first Zeus Uranus (Type 3.5 mix) was sold as a Type 4, but likely early.

 

The Uranus I just received is clearly by all designations a Type 4, except for the case build.  It doesn't have a case label but I think it is a late Uranus Type 4.  My brother is a photographer and has been printing on aluminum sheet for a couple years.  I had him make me some replica labels and this is the label that I will add to the newest Goto Uranus to replace the missing one (Sorry for poor picture quality.  It's much sharper than my little pocket cam has captured).

 

P3021328.JPG

 

Finally I previously thought that the 'GOTo' logo was limited to only '53-'54, so I had this Uranus and Eros nailed down to two years as well.  The Uranus went to a Type 5 in '55 so there two years is good.  But I hadn't really looked at the labels on my '55-'61 telescopes.  blush.gif  They are also 'GOTo' logo'd.  So that would mean that all these telescopes, and indeed all the school telescopes sold in Japan during the late 50's were likely labelled the same.  Goto-san bought a factory in 1942 during the war.  The location was Setagaya - Shinmachi 1-115.  It was in use from '43-'63.  So I have to believe that the 'GOTo' logo, which states Setagaya as the location, was used on telescopes made there the much longer eleven year period.  In 1963 the factory moved to the Fuchu-chi section of town and the 'GOTO' logo label clearly indicates that.

 

So I have made a few modifications to Kodama-san's chart.  I think given the data they are logical.  I have forwarded these changes to him and am waiting for a response.

 

Since the Goto telescopes we see here on CN are predominately from the Setagaya factory, how can we nail down things further.  Certainly the inspections tags that accompany the scopes will help, as well as the fliers that Goto published.  I have yet to get a clearer indication of the date of my second Eros with the 'GOTo' logo.  But now I will go to advertising fliers and catalogs and try to sort it out.  More to come.


Edited by Stew44, 02 March 2019 - 09:07 PM.

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#6 Stew44

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 08:48 PM

Walter_A, I erred in saying '53-54.  Your label is a corporate label.  It has the four small characters to the right of the logo in a square formation ahead of Goto in the company name.  So this raises an issue.  Your scope was bigger than 42mm (40mm ED).  It appears the Comets went back to simply 42mm (40mm ED) in 1955-1959 when Goto had incorporated.  So if yours is larger than that it might be ahead of the Nov 55 price sheet that say only 42mm Comets were offered with no larger OTA options.  Can you get a better estimate of your clear aperture?


Edited by Stew44, 05 March 2019 - 07:17 AM.


#7 walter a

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Posted 04 March 2019 - 11:37 PM

A photo of my cell and lens from the flint side, it seems to differ from Valts 40mm. Another difference is that his pinion housing is black where as mine is chrome. Hope this helps.

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#8 Stew44

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 07:30 AM

Thanks for the pics.  Here are the spec on the tube that Goto provides.

 

Comet 40 dimensions.jpg

 

Goto Comet lens cell..jpg

 

Goto was famous for large tube and cell diameters to allow for upgrading to larger aperture over life of scope.  The measure you provided looks pretty close to these dimensions so without much more careful measure of some of these things I would say this is 40mm clear aperture.  Perhaps you could check a number of  these indicated.


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#9 Dave Trott

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Posted 05 March 2019 - 11:08 PM

Wow, Stew, the stuff you come up with is amazing! Nice work! You are the Goto Guru!

- Dave


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#10 walter a

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 09:51 PM

Stew after a remeasure I have  the est ca at 57mm.

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#11 Stew44

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 11:03 PM

Thanks! Then it's a Uranus OTA and without a mount, we can call it a transitional Comet 2. I don't recall that it had a bracket for the fine altitude adj, so not a Uranus proper.
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#12 walter a

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 11:55 PM

A Uranus / Comet, Great. I trasitioned it onto a usable mount and fabbed up a tripod. Looking forword to trying it out once it warms up. Thanks for the info Stew.


Edited by walter a, 08 March 2019 - 07:26 AM.


#13 Stew44

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 08:33 AM

Just to be clear, Uranus lens is 58mm and the CA is 55mm.  The transitional part is that Goto incorporated in 1955 and label change would follow that.  What is unclear is when they cut the product line to just Comet (40mm) and no longer sold Comets 2 and 3.  With that corporate label on your case, it would appear that there was a brief time after incorporation that they still sold Comets 2 and 3; hence transitional.  Pictures please of the new configuration, perhaps over on the Comet thread, and maybe a viewing report.



#14 walter a

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 04:55 AM

In case you have not visited the, what did you do to your scope, mount thread I will post a pic here as well, and for a sense of scale the GOTo next to a 50mm Unitron. 

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Edited by walter a, 09 March 2019 - 06:24 AM.

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#15 Stew44

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 06:54 AM

Very nice,  thanks for posting this.  And you've made it more Uranus-like as well because the Comets don't have slo-mo controls.  grin.gif    The tube comparison can be a bit misleading as Goto provided a bigger tube diameter so the owner could upgrade.  Still he had to take into account the focal length so limitation there.  Observing report?


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#16 walter a

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 07:36 AM

Stew,on reading back I am not clear, did goto use the same tube and focuser and just inlarge the cell for the 3 comet models be cause if thats the case my tube is wider and longer than the specs in post #8. Another item of note is my tube has external threads for the cell and the comet is internal. Sorry to be a pain. 


Edited by walter a, 10 March 2019 - 07:56 AM.


#17 Stew44

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 08:04 AM

Don't have any Comets so can't say.  You have the outer tube diameter of 58mm from above spec.  And you've had the cell off so might unscrew it again and measure.  As I said, the only issue with that is the focal length has to fit the Uranus at 800mm.  I think the tube could handle the aperture, but it would have to be maybe four inches longer?  I can check and see if there are Uranus specs available.  Are there any baffles in the tube? 


Edited by Stew44, 10 March 2019 - 08:34 AM.


#18 Stew44

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 08:31 AM

Here is the Uranus OTA at Type 4 (55mm CA lens and 800mm focal length) dimensions.

 

Goto Uranus OTA Dimensions.jpg

 

and the lens cell configuration

 

Goto Uranus lens cell.jpg

 

The tube is larger diameter and only a quarter inch longer than the Comet tube.  Note however that this cell has collimation screws.  So I need to search for Type III Uranus cell which I believe does not.


Edited by Stew44, 10 March 2019 - 08:45 AM.


#19 Stew44

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 08:59 AM

Could you show a picture of the front of the lens cell straight on so full lens is displayed in relation to cell (like first cell picture above but flipped over).  



#20 walter a

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 09:53 AM

Yes mine has two baffles and I can get 800mm of focal length as the focuser racks out 110mm. I will take a pic and get it up asap



#21 walter a

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 10:58 AM

Cell 

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Edited by walter a, 10 March 2019 - 11:05 AM.

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#22 walter a

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 11:07 AM

Focuser;

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#23 walter a

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 11:35 AM

The only numbers it seems to share with the comet is the focuser and the only numbers it shares with the uranus is lens size and focal length and as can be seen in my photo above it dwarfs the 50x700 unitron. So Maybe its a subaru 2 as you suggested.


Edited by walter a, 10 March 2019 - 02:17 PM.


#24 Stew44

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Posted 10 March 2019 - 02:21 PM

I agree.  The cell is not a Uranus cell of the time.  It was at a minimum engraved around the ring with Goto Kogaku and 800mm.  Then collimation.  So I have two Uranus Type 4 len cells.  The early Zeus one has that engraving and no collimation and the later GOTo labelled one with no corporate letters like yours is collimatible.  This cell on your looks like it was meant to fit the Comet tube.


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