Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Opinions re: APM ED 16X70's Vs. Oberwerk ED 20x65's

  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1 Urban Observer

Urban Observer

    Explorer 1

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 66
  • Joined: 06 Apr 2008

Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:55 PM

Fellow binocular fan, seeking opinions on which one of these to get.

 

My original plan was to save up for the 16x70 binocular telescope from Oberwerk. But, I've waited a while for this, and I'm thinking of getting something now... I've narrowed it down to these two:

 

• The APM ED 16x70's - From all I've read (here) they seem to be well on their way to achieving legendary status - With some reporting performance slightly better than the Fujinon 16x70's (I owned a pair many years ago).

 

Or

 

• The (new) 20x65 ED Deluxe from Oberwerk. I like the fact that the EP barrels are threaded to accept 1.25" filters.

 

The intended use, is for sketching DSO's.

I'd appreciate any advice / feedback.


Edited by Urban Observer, 11 February 2019 - 03:43 AM.


#2 Rich V.

Rich V.

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,921
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2005
  • Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada

Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:13 AM

We haven't heard a lot yet about the Obies; Tammy H has one and it looks promising.

 

https://www.cloudyni...65mm-ed-deluxe/

 

At f6 it should have better color correction than the 16x (or20x) 70mm APMs but the APM's color correction is pretty good.  You'd have to decide if a 4.1° FOV @ 4.5mm exit pupil is more desirable than a 3.2° FOV @ 3.25mm EP.  Each has its pros and cons.

 

I can only compare my similar f6 22x70 EDs to the APM 16x70EDs, it's clear to me that the 22x binos show fainter stars; that's a given.  CA correction of the 22x70s is better than the APMs also, if you're wanting the best correction for bright objects and daytime spotting use.  I'd expect the 20x65s would be similar to the WOs; it that's the case, they may hit a sweet spot for many bino fans.

 

Perhaps Tammy will report more about these with time.

 

Rich


  • Urban Observer and Terra Nova like this

#3 Mark9473

Mark9473

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 11,444
  • Joined: 21 Jul 2005
  • Loc: 51°N 4°E

Posted 11 February 2019 - 01:35 PM

You have a few binoculars already. Use your 20x80 with 65mm cardboard objective masks so that you can see how a 3.25 mm exit pupil looks.

You can also try out how you like using filters on top of the eyepiece. Reflections kill that idea for me, but perhaps you have much less light around you than I have.


  • Urban Observer likes this

#4 Terra Nova

Terra Nova

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 21,973
  • Joined: 29 May 2012
  • Loc: Under the Blue Moon of Kentucky

Posted 06 March 2019 - 11:57 AM

Given the horrible viewing weather summer and winter here the last couple of years- dodging either clouds, sub freezing temperatures, rain and humidity, or seemingly endless poor seeing, I’ve been using my binoculars a lot more and my scopes a lot less. I’ve sold a lot of stuff off in the past year or two and have cut my scope number in half.  That said, I’ve have been itching to get a new pair of ‘bigger’ binoculars to fit between my 15 y.o. Obie 12x60s (which are fine hand-held), and my tripod-mounted 25 y.o. Japanese Orion 20x80s.

 

I am leaning towards either these new Obie 20x65EDs:

 

https://oberwerk.com...20x65ed-deluxe/

 

Or these Obie 15x70s:

 

https://oberwerk.com...15x70mm-deluxe/

 

One other possibility would be the Fujinon FMT Polaris 16x70 binoculars, most likely a used pair. I have been extremely impressed with my Obie 12x60s for their sharp, bright, contrasty images during the day and black sky and pinpoint stars at night, but I also have a Fujinon 102mm refractor that has exceptional optics and so I would expect the Fuji binos to be superb as well.

 

So what to do? The Obie 15x70s, the Obie 20x65EDs, or the Fuji FMT 16x70s. I realize that the cost creeps up incrementally with each of the three. Mounting is not a problem- my very stable binocular tripod and mount stays within easy reach of the back door.  What say you?

 



#5 Pinac

Pinac

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,161
  • Joined: 26 Dec 2013
  • Loc: Switzerland

Posted 06 March 2019 - 12:28 PM

Just got the Obie 20x65.

 

Had it on tripod for 15 mins, so cannot really say much about it yet, except:

 

- CA appears very well corrected

- edge sharpness is very good

 

I plan to test it over the next few weeks side by side against a number of the current 20x binos (APM 20x80ED, 20x70ED, Pentax 20x60, Nikon Monarch 20x56; will probably also include the Nikon 18x70). Maybe also against some of the cheaper 20x non-ED binos (Omegon etc.).

 

Comparing it with 16x binoculars such as the Fuji doesn‘t make that much sense in my view, there is too much of a magnification difference.

The Fuji is great if you don‘t mind a bit of CA, I think that‘s the main thing that could be be critized.

 

Pinac


Edited by Pinac, 06 March 2019 - 12:30 PM.

  • Mad Matt, plyscope and Terra Nova like this

#6 Rich V.

Rich V.

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,921
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2005
  • Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada

Posted 06 March 2019 - 01:19 PM

I look forward to Pinac's impressions of the 20x65s vs the other 20x offerings.

 

Regarding the Fuji 16x70s, the CA is a minor issue compared to the very short ER, IMO.  I find in the 16x70 size, the MS and MS ED binos are a better choice for comfortable viewing with their long ER and flat fields.  They don't give up anything to the Fujis optically. The FMTs are built really well but need a more modern optical upgrade to be competitive these days.

 

Rich


  • Terra Nova likes this

#7 tropical

tropical

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 678
  • Joined: 08 Jun 2014

Posted 06 March 2019 - 01:23 PM

Isn't the APM's 16x80 ED better?



#8 Rich V.

Rich V.

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,921
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2005
  • Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada

Posted 06 March 2019 - 01:27 PM

Better than what?



#9 hallelujah

hallelujah

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 7,862
  • Joined: 14 Jul 2006
  • Loc: North Star over Colorado

Posted 06 March 2019 - 01:29 PM

So what to do?

The Obie 15x70s, the Obie 20x65EDs, or the Fuji FMT 16x70s.

I realize that the cost creeps up incrementally with each of the three.

Mounting is not a problem- my very stable binocular tripod and mount stays within easy reach of the back door.

What say you?

Personally, I am never satisfied with less magnification when a 20x is available.

The extra magnification makes a lot of difference for me & my old eyeballs. bigshock.gif

 

Stan


  • eklf and Terra Nova like this

#10 Terra Nova

Terra Nova

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 21,973
  • Joined: 29 May 2012
  • Loc: Under the Blue Moon of Kentucky

Posted 06 March 2019 - 02:37 PM

Just got the Obie 20x65.

 

Had it on tripod for 15 mins, so cannot really say much about it yet, except:

 

- CA appears very well corrected

- edge sharpness is very good

 

I plan to test it over the next few weeks side by side against a number of the current 20x binos (APM 20x80ED, 20x70ED, Pentax 20x60, Nikon Monarch 20x56; will probably also include the Nikon 18x70). Maybe also against some of the cheaper 20x non-ED binos (Omegon etc.).

 

Comparing it with 16x binoculars such as the Fuji doesn‘t make that much sense in my view, there is too much of a magnification difference.

The Fuji is great if you don‘t mind a bit of CA, I think that‘s the main thing that could be be critized.

 

Pinac

I’m leaning towards these and have been for a while. Just waiting to see more reviews. They seem to be few and far between. I’m really looking forward to hearing your remarks.



#11 Terra Nova

Terra Nova

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 21,973
  • Joined: 29 May 2012
  • Loc: Under the Blue Moon of Kentucky

Posted 06 March 2019 - 02:51 PM

These appear to be the same as the Oberwerk 20x65EDs but without the metal carry case. The ad give a lot more information.

 

https://www.aliexpre...2905408486.html



#12 Rich V.

Rich V.

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,921
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2005
  • Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada

Posted 06 March 2019 - 02:58 PM

While these 20x65s may not be exclusive, IMO, it's well worth buying from Kevin at Oberwerk for the customer service alone...


  • hallelujah and Terra Nova like this

#13 hallelujah

hallelujah

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 7,862
  • Joined: 14 Jul 2006
  • Loc: North Star over Colorado

Posted 06 March 2019 - 03:08 PM

While these 20x65s may not be exclusive, IMO, it's well worth buying from Kevin at Oberwerk for the customer service alone...

Exactly!

Customer Service is everything, especially if it arrives out of collimation. wink.gif

 

Stan


  • Terra Nova likes this

#14 Terra Nova

Terra Nova

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 21,973
  • Joined: 29 May 2012
  • Loc: Under the Blue Moon of Kentucky

Posted 06 March 2019 - 04:01 PM

I completely agree about buying direct from Oberwerk. In fact I am within an hour’s drive. I have purchased other products from them and can vouch for their excellent service. I just offered the other link because more pictures and description was offered for essentially the same product, and also more reviews might be out there under the different product name.


  • hallelujah likes this

#15 Riccardo_italy

Riccardo_italy

    Viking 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 852
  • Joined: 29 Sep 2014
  • Loc: Italy

Posted 07 March 2019 - 07:24 AM

I really can't understand why a binocular like that but 45° angled is not produced.



#16 plyscope

plyscope

    Surveyor 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 1,879
  • Joined: 23 Nov 2006
  • Loc: Perth, West Australia

Posted 07 March 2019 - 08:06 AM

There is the APM 22x70 ED at 45 degrees.

 

https://www.apm-tele...ece-holder.html



#17 hallelujah

hallelujah

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 7,862
  • Joined: 14 Jul 2006
  • Loc: North Star over Colorado

Posted 07 March 2019 - 11:33 AM

I really can't understand why a binocular like that but 45° angled is not produced.

Oberwerk already has plenty of angled binoculars.

 

Some of us prefer a straight through binocular, especially in an ED version.

 

With the loss of the William Optics 22x70 ED straight through binocular I think

that Kevin made a very good choice in coming out with the 20x65 ED. like-button.jpg

 

Stan


  • Terra Nova likes this

#18 tropical

tropical

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 678
  • Joined: 08 Jun 2014

Posted 07 March 2019 - 12:09 PM

Better than what?

 

APM has a bigger objective 16x80 ED.  Everything is same as 16x70 except with 80mm objective.  It must be better than the 16x70, right?  I kind of wonder why there are not many reports on the 16x80 APM.



#19 Rich V.

Rich V.

    Fly Me to the Moon

  • *****
  • Posts: 6,921
  • Joined: 02 Jan 2005
  • Loc: Lake Tahoe area, Nevada

Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:14 PM

I see what you're getting at now but it's a trade-off, IMO.  The 16x70 weighs 1.93kg while 16x80 is 2.5kg; if you're OK with the extra size/weight and you think a 5mm vs 4.5mm exit pupil is a worthwhile difference, then yes.  wink.gif

 

I'm a fan of the 16x70 format but if I wanted an 80mm bino, I'd probably prefer the extra magnification of a 20x80 over the larger exit pupil of the 16x80.   It's a personal preference thing, I suppose.  My 22x70s clearly show fainter stars than my 16x70s despite their smaller exit pupil.  Higher mag/aperture means a smaller FOV and decreased overall brightness though, so still a trade-off.

 

Rich


  • Terra Nova and Pinac like this

#20 tropical

tropical

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 678
  • Joined: 08 Jun 2014

Posted 07 March 2019 - 07:01 PM

I think weight is not much a factor for 16X bino as one must have a tripod anyway.  I wonder why there is no report on 16x70 versus 16x80.  Bigger objectives will bring more photons thus can see more.  I guess not many people know the 16x80 actually does exist and cost is much more so it is not attractive.



#21 Terra Nova

Terra Nova

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 21,973
  • Joined: 29 May 2012
  • Loc: Under the Blue Moon of Kentucky

Posted 08 March 2019 - 01:00 PM

Well I have narrowed it down to one of the two Oberwerk deluxe models: the 15x70s or the 20x65EDs. I can only get one pair but the respective price difference is not an issue. Either way, much of the use will be in my fairly light-polluted suburban backyard. So which do you think would be a better overall fit for me between my Obie 12x60s and my tripod-mounted 25 y.o. Orion 20x80s? I realize either the 15x70s of 20x65EDs will need to be mounted. No worries there. I plan to make the purchase within a couple of weeks.



#22 Mad Matt

Mad Matt

    Vanguard

  • *****
  • Posts: 2,425
  • Joined: 20 May 2003
  • Loc: Frankfurt, Germany

Posted 08 March 2019 - 01:44 PM

Well I have narrowed it down to one of the two Oberwerk deluxe models: the 15x70s or the 20x65EDs. I can only get one pair but the respective price difference is not an issue. Either way, much of the use will be in my fairly light-polluted suburban backyard. So which do you think would be a better overall fit for me between my Obie 12x60s and my tripod-mounted 25 y.o. Orion 20x80s? I realize either the 15x70s of 20x65EDs will need to be mounted. No worries there. I plan to make the purchase within a couple of weeks.


For suburban backyard usage I would definitely go with 20x. They will definitely let you see more.
  • hallelujah, Terra Nova and Pinac like this

#23 hallelujah

hallelujah

    Cosmos

  • *****
  • Posts: 7,862
  • Joined: 14 Jul 2006
  • Loc: North Star over Colorado

Posted 08 March 2019 - 04:05 PM

For suburban backyard usage I would definitely go with 20x. They will definitely let you see more.

I agree with Matt..waytogo.gif

 

The jump from 12x to 20x is much more to my liking. ubetcha.gif

 

15x & 16x has always left me wanting bawling.gif more magnification for stargazing as well as long distance bird watching.

 

Even after using 20x I found that I was happier love.gif  still when I purchased my 30x binoculars. like-button.jpg

 

Stan


Edited by hallelujah, 08 March 2019 - 04:13 PM.

  • Terra Nova and Pinac like this

#24 Steve D.

Steve D.

    Apollo

  • *****
  • Posts: 1,262
  • Joined: 29 Jul 2007
  • Loc: Woodstock, GA

Posted 09 March 2019 - 03:08 PM

I just noticed this new 70mm BT model from Oberwerk:  https://oberwerk.com...ular-telescope/


Edited by Steve D., 09 March 2019 - 03:09 PM.

  • Mad Matt, SMark, Terra Nova and 1 other like this

#25 ihf

ihf

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 153
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2019
  • Loc: California, USA

Posted 10 March 2019 - 01:23 AM

[Interesting: The BT-70XL-ED FL=350mm is currently specified shorter (f/5) than the APM 70mm ED FL=400mm (f/5.7).]




CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics