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Explore FirstLight 10" or Apertura AD 10 Dobsonian

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#26 Jond105

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 08:17 PM

Please don’t speak about what you don’t know. They don’t paint engine blocks black because it’s pretty. Black dissipates heat faster than white, especially in the IR spectrum. Sure, in sunlight the white tube will be cooler, but once the sun sets, black is superior. Frankly, you should never put your telescope in direct sunlight unless you are observing the sun. Why put your telescope through that heat stress?


Gee, I don't know, because you can start seeing the planets in the summer even before the sun is fully set, and when strapped for time before work, you take what you can get.
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#27 Scott Regener

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 09:10 PM

Actually, paint emissivity of any color is roughly the same (unless it's a metallic paint, then it's going to be lower). So it doesn't matter black or white or magenta.

They don’t list white and black paint on metal, but on plastic is it .95-.84 in favor of black. More dramatic for paper.



#28 Scott Regener

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 09:11 PM

Gee, I don't know, because you can start seeing the planets in the summer even before the sun is fully set, and when strapped for time before work, you take what you can get.

Okay, I stand corrected. I was thinking of the sun being high enough in the sky to heat up your telescope. The thermal currents from that should destroy seeing completely.


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#29 Jond105

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 09:23 PM

Okay, I stand corrected. I was thinking of the sun being high enough in the sky to heat up your telescope. The thermal currents from that should destroy seeing completely.


This I agree with.

#30 skywatcher99

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 09:50 PM

I am going with Apertura 10" :)   I am sure I will be back with tons of questions as this is my first telescope!


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#31 pregulla

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 02:25 AM

They don’t list white and black paint on metal, but on plastic is it .95-.84 in favor of black. More dramatic for paper.

It's not paint on plastic, it is paint that itself is plastic. I don't argue about color effect on emissivity in other materials, just saying that it doesn't matter for thermal performance what color your telescope tube is painted with. Even if we take values for plastic, that's 10% difference. Part of the heat is removed by convection, so it's closer to 5% total.

 

Bottom line: pick the color you like, and don't worry about it's effect on cooling. And if you have thermal issues use a fan rather than painting your OTA wink.gif



#32 Biggen

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 07:02 AM

I am going with Apertura 10" smile.gif   I am sure I will be back with tons of questions as this is my first telescope!

Good choice. Better than an 8” in my opinion. I got the AD8 and wished I had gotten the 10” since they are nearly the same size.


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#33 SynisterAZ

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 09:58 AM

I had really been leaning toward the ES Dob, however, I read several reports where the scope sits too low on the base and the bottom of the tube will hit the base near zenith. You can adjust the OTA forward in the rings but then you run in to balance issues. I ended up going with the Apertura 10 for the dual focuser and highly praised alt/az bearings. So far I am pleased. 


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#34 bleep

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 10:07 AM

I am going with Apertura 10" smile.gif   I am sure I will be back with tons of questions as this is my first telescope!

 

Congratulations!  I have the same scope and I love it!  I recommend reading this thread. You'll get lots of info

 

https://www.cloudyni...r-zhumell-dobs/

 

The Zhumell and Apertura dobs a pretty much exactly the same. 


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#35 skywatcher99

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 04:13 PM

Congratulations!  I have the same scope and I love it!  I recommend reading this thread. You'll get lots of info

 

https://www.cloudyni...r-zhumell-dobs/

 

The Zhumell and Apertura dobs a pretty much exactly the same. 

 

Thanks! Will do! :)



#36 skywatcher99

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 04:16 PM

I had really been leaning toward the ES Dob, however, I read several reports where the scope sits too low on the base and the bottom of the tube will hit the base near zenith. You can adjust the OTA forward in the rings but then you run in to balance issues. I ended up going with the Apertura 10 for the dual focuser and highly praised alt/az bearings. So far I am pleased. 

Exactly the reasons I went with Apertura. I see people who have ES like them very much too but I didn't want to do lot of modifications myself (like installing the fan) and I liked the accessories that come with AD10....well at least some of them.



#37 sopticals

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 07:39 PM

I am going with Apertura 10" smile.gif   I am sure I will be back with tons of questions as this is my first telescope!

Having owned four 8" dobs,(one homemade, two Celestron,and a Skywatcher [the homemade was the best optically]) and now a Zhumell 10", (same as Apertura) I find that the 10" is where one "crosses the line"

for having "useful aperture". So IMHO you have made a good choice.

 

Stephen.(45deg.S.)


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#38 zacrobmer

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Posted 16 February 2019 - 05:12 AM

I am going with Apertura 10" :) I am sure I will be back with tons of questions as this is my first telescope!


I have a Zhumell Z10, which is pretty much the exact same, rebranded GSO scope as the Apertura AD10.

They are a great scope, they work great "out of the box". As already mentioned there is a pretty healthy mod thread for the Zhumell's, not that the scope needs them, but there are some good ideas for upgrades or tweaks that you may end up doing.

Also, it was brought up earlier in this thread that the ES has a better set up for balancing, I found that the Alt bearings used by GSO/Zhumell/Apertura work great, they allow adjustment forward and back along the scope body enough to account for all the front heavy weight I have used on the scope. The OTA does have to be removed to make that adjustment though.

Enjoy your new scope!

#39 Jomar

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 09:05 PM

Ha, that's funny skywatcher 99.  I have the same issue as you with aesthetics.   The black apertura looks sleek and almost like a furnishing.  If I  keep it in any of the rooms inside my house it will look pretty cool (well ....  acceptable in my wife and kids opinion).  The white ES with the side truss-like semicircular bearings kind of looks like shop machinery.  I think I'll hear a fair share of complaints about it in the house.

 

The black vs. white heat transfer debate is interesting and I may have to put my mechanical engineer's hat on for that someday and chime in; but for now I'll stick to a few questions about the two scopes for those who own them. The ES 10" is $200 cheaper than the 10" Apertura  but Apertura has more goodies, some of which I may need to start off.  So i'm still on a holding pattern trying to weigh the pros and cons of each and see what i'll need right off the bat to do some decent viewing until I get some experience.

 

I'm trying to make a selection by comparing the ES and Apertura.  I guess it's not exactly like comparing apples to apples but if any of you owners have insights it would be greatly appreciated. I have gathered that the mirrors may be the same but if not , they are highly comparable and good quality.

 

A few questions i've been pondering are:

 

For the ES owners:

Is the focuser ok?  ES will upgrade to a 2-speed focuser for $71 more prior to shipping.  Is it worth it or is the stock focuser fine?

Are either of the supplied eyepieces adequate or do they pretty much need to be changed out and upgraded immediately?

How do you collimate?  No tools are provided.  What did you buy to get started and how much $$ will be required?

Have you experienced a long cool down time due to a lack of fan and is it something that will probably be needed down the road?

Does the thru site finder need to be upgraded from the start to a RACI finder or tetrad or other?

If you have the 10" ES do you wish you had the 8" or vice versa ?

Do you feel the large altitude bearing is better than The Apertura's small altitude bearing

Can the tube be rotated for a different eyepiece angle and will planets shift by the same angle the tube is rotated?

IS coma a problem on the 10" scope?

 

For the Apertura owners:

IS the 30 mm 2" superwide a good eyepiece?  the 1.25" 9 mm eyepiece?

Is the laser collimator accurate and will other collimation tools be needed or just the laser?

Is the fan a benefit or would it cool sufficiently fast without it?

is the image finder generally usable or will an upgrade, telrad or something else be needed shortly?

If you have the 8" ES do you wish you had the 10" or vice versa?

Is coma a problem on the 10" scope?

 

Any thoughts or comments would be helpful.  

 

Regards John 


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#40 hcf

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 12:55 AM

I have a Zhumell Z8, same as the AD8.
 

For the Apertura owners:
IS the 30 mm 2" superwide a good eyepiece?  the 1.25" 9 mm eyepiece?


I used the 30mm a lot when I first got the scope. Ever since I bought a ES82 18mm, I don't use/need it much.
The 9mm still sees some viewing time. I find it better than my other plossls.
 

Is the laser collimator accurate and will other collimation tools be needed or just the laser?


I could not get the scope collimated with the laser. I bought a Cheshire and a collimation cap. Once you have collimated, the collimation cap is more useful than the others for small tweaks. The laser (and the cheshire) also suffer from slop inside the focuser (solution: wrap collimator tube in tape). My only advice if you get the AD8/10 is try not to adjust the secondary based on the laser. The secondary is usually well aligned from the factory, and you can mess it up thus making further progress more difficult.

 

If the laser collimator did not look so cool, I would have sold it on ebay a long time ago lol.gif
 

Is the fan a benefit or would it cool sufficiently fast without it?


I have never used the fan. I keep the scope out well ahead of viewing time.
 

is the image finder generally usable or will an upgrade, telrad or something else be needed shortly?


The RACI is very useful. But it needs a Red Dot Finder or Telrad/Rigel in addition for easy use. I have a Telrad in addition to a RACI but I use the Telrad as a Red Dot Finder. Lately I have moved on to other technology for a finder.
 

If you have the 8" ES do you wish you had the 10" or vice versa?


On galaxy hunting nights I wish I had a 10". When my back is acting up, I am glad I have a 8".
The ES 8" is interesting. It might be mountable on an EQ mount with its rings. The ES scopes might also be easier to balance if you can slide the scope in the rings (carefully). I like the GSO (Zhumell,Apertura) bearings a lot. Don't know much about the ES bearings.
 

Is coma a problem on the 10" scope?


I know a lot of people who use 10" Dobs without coma correctors for visual.

Good luck with whatever you choose.


Edited by hcf, 19 February 2019 - 03:44 AM.

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#41 zleonis

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 10:00 AM

For the Apertura owners:

IS the 30 mm 2" superwide a good eyepiece?  the 1.25" 9 mm eyepiece?

Is the laser collimator accurate and will other collimation tools be needed or just the laser?

Is the fan a benefit or would it cool sufficiently fast without it?

is the image finder generally usable or will an upgrade, telrad or something else be needed shortly?

If you have the 8" ES do you wish you had the 10" or vice versa?

Is coma a problem on the 10" scope?

 

Any thoughts or comments would be helpful.  

 

Regards John 

I have an essentially identical Zhumell Z8. 

Eyepieces: the 30mm is a pretty good eyepiece. It's nice to have an immersive wide field of view of a true field of about 1.7°. The outer quarter of the field is not sharp, but then again, the field is 40% wider than a Plossl. I probably wouldn't spend $70 for this eyepiece new, but it's a step up over the 25mm Plossl that's included with some other scopes. The 9mm is a useful magnification but has the tight eye relief of a 9mm Plossl. I do most of my observing at medium-high magnification with a Celestron 8-24mm zoom. The 9mm Plossl is slightly sharper than the zoom, and seems to be easier to focus (not sure if this is optically plausible, just my subjective impression), but the zoom wins out for longer eye relief and larger apparent field of view at 9mm. 

 

Laser collimator: Mine was out of alignment. It has tiny hex screws for collimating the laser itself, which I found tedious, and I have trouble getting it to hold alignment. I've used instead a cheap combination sight tube/cheshire ($20) which seems to work well. I'm thinking about trying to use the barlowed laser technique with the laser, since this method is more forgiving of lasers that aren't perfectly aligned, or have a little slop in the focuser. Although the cheshire is easy enough to use, it'd be really convenient to be able to easily collimate in the dark. 

 

Fan: When I'm at home, I usually plug it in when I put it out to cool (I had a 12v adapter lying around that fit, so I don't need to use 8 batteries). When I'm at my dark(er) site, I don't use the fan and don't particularly notice its absence. 

 

RACI finder: This works well and is quite useful (and even shows nice views in its own right.) I use it with a basic red dot finder (taped to the RACI), and they work great in combination. The RDF alone is enough for planets or objects near bright stars, otherwise I use the RDF to get the RACI aligned with the starting point of a starhop. I don't really see a need for a telrad, but I do have degree circles representing the finder and a couple of my most used eyepieces as overlays on Sky Safari, which makes navigation a lot easier. 

 

I have a 8" scope and I'll admit that part of me wishes I had a 10". It wouldn't be that much more trouble to move around, and I'm able to leave it unattended while it cools most of the time. That said the 8" is no slouch and I'm rarely disappointed with what I see. 


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#42 RefractoryTWO

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 10:22 AM

Ha, that's funny skywatcher 99.  I have the same issue as you with aesthetics.   The black apertura looks sleek and almost like a furnishing.  If I  keep it in any of the rooms inside my house it will look pretty cool (well ....  acceptable in my wife and kids opinion).  The white ES with the side truss-like semicircular bearings kind of looks like shop machinery.  I think I'll hear a fair share of complaints about it in the house.

 

The black vs. white heat transfer debate is interesting and I may have to put my mechanical engineer's hat on for that someday and chime in; but for now I'll stick to a few questions about the two scopes for those who own them. The ES 10" is $200 cheaper than the 10" Apertura  but Apertura has more goodies, some of which I may need to start off.  So i'm still on a holding pattern trying to weigh the pros and cons of each and see what i'll need right off the bat to do some decent viewing until I get some experience.

 

I'm trying to make a selection by comparing the ES and Apertura.  I guess it's not exactly like comparing apples to apples but if any of you owners have insights it would be greatly appreciated. I have gathered that the mirrors may be the same but if not , they are highly comparable and good quality.

 

A few questions i've been pondering are:

 

For the ES owners:

Is the focuser ok?  ES will upgrade to a 2-speed focuser for $71 more prior to shipping.  Is it worth it or is the stock focuser fine?

Are either of the supplied eyepieces adequate or do they pretty much need to be changed out and upgraded immediately?

How do you collimate?  No tools are provided.  What did you buy to get started and how much $$ will be required?

Have you experienced a long cool down time due to a lack of fan and is it something that will probably be needed down the road?

Does the thru site finder need to be upgraded from the start to a RACI finder or tetrad or other?

If you have the 10" ES do you wish you had the 8" or vice versa ?

Do you feel the large altitude bearing is better than The Apertura's small altitude bearing

Can the tube be rotated for a different eyepiece angle and will planets shift by the same angle the tube is rotated?

IS coma a problem on the 10" scope?

 

For the Apertura owners:

IS the 30 mm 2" superwide a good eyepiece?  the 1.25" 9 mm eyepiece?

Is the laser collimator accurate and will other collimation tools be needed or just the laser?

Is the fan a benefit or would it cool sufficiently fast without it?

is the image finder generally usable or will an upgrade, telrad or something else be needed shortly?

If you have the 8" ES do you wish you had the 10" or vice versa?

Is coma a problem on the 10" scope?

 

Any thoughts or comments would be helpful.  

 

Regards John 

Until I read this, I was beginning to think I was the only one who tries to envision what a telescope will look like in the house before buying.

 

FWIW, I find the ES FirstLight series to be the most aesthetically pleasing dobs.



#43 earlyriser

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 11:16 AM

For the Apertura owners:

 

IS the 30 mm 2" superwide a good eyepiece?  the 1.25" 9 mm eyepiece?

 

The 30mm superwide is not great, but it's good enough to get you started. I never used the 10mm plossl that came with mine.

 

 

Is the laser collimator accurate and will other collimation tools be needed or just the laser?

 

It's good enough to get you started. I eventually picked up a cheap combination sight tube/Cheshire eyepiece to check/set alignment of the primary. I'd like to get a Glatter tublug, but $200 is a lot for what is essentially a convenience.

 

 

Is the fan a benefit or would it cool sufficiently fast without it?

 

The fan makes a big difference. I'd say it cuts the cooling time at least in half. It also helps prevent secondary fogging. 

 

 

is the image finder generally usable or will an upgrade, telrad or something else be needed shortly?

 

The RACI is pretty good, but you'll need something to help you initially align the OTA before you can use the finder. A Telrad is cheap, so get one.

 

 

If you have the 8" ES do you wish you had the 10" or vice versa?

 

NA

 

 

Is coma a problem on the 10" scope?

 

I've been using it without a coma corrector for 2 years, but I'm told once I have one, I won't go back.



#44 blange3

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 12:31 PM

 

 

For the Apertura owners:

IS the 30 mm 2" superwide a good eyepiece?  the 1.25" 9 mm eyepiece?

 

Yes to the 30mm. Not so much for the 9mm. Very tight eye relief and I don't find viewing easy or comfortable.

 

I

Is the laser collimator accurate and will other collimation tools be needed or just the laser?

 

The laser collimator works if it is in proper collimation. Mine was not and I had to learn how to do that. You Tube has some videos. You need to make a simple jig that allows you to roll it in place to see if the laser dot stays steady.

Once collimated it is easy. Even easier if you replace the secondary adjustment screws with collimation knobs. 

 

Is the fan a benefit or would it cool sufficiently fast without it?

 

I use the fan all the time and leave it running the whole session.I don't know what it is like without running it.

 

is the image finder generally usable or will an upgrade, telrad or something else be needed shortly?

 

As others have noted, the RACI is very good but I plan on adding a Telrad. 

 

If you have the 8" ES do you wish you had the 10" or vice versa?

 

I have the 10" and so far I find it fairly easy to move around. I haven't traveled to a dark site yet so I'm not sure how far I can carry it with wishing it were lighter!

 

Is coma a problem on the 10" scope?

 

I haven't had a problem yet. 

 

 

As far as other suggestions go, check out using a digital angle gauge https://www.cloudyni...ey#entry9151340


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#45 Jomar

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 10:54 PM

Thanks all for your help.  I've narrowed my choice to the Explore Scientific solid 10" or the Apertura AD 10.  The ES is substantially cheaper with a first time buyer discount.  Aperture's are currently back ordered anyway.  To make me more confused I saw a 10 " Orion XT Classic on sale used and the I started thinking is the f/4.7 too fast compared with the others, is it worth it, etc.  So I'm seriously thinking of pulling the trigger on the 10" ES (maybe with a 2 speed focuser upgrade.

 

Question for Asbytec:

 

I'm thinking of getting the ES 10".  I spoke with them and they will upgrade to a 2 speed focuser for $71 extra prior to shipping.  Do you think it is needed? worth it? or is the stock focuser easy to use?  Also do you think the 8 " is sufficient or  think the 10 " would be better.    What is your overall impression of the Explore Scientific Solid tube with the big semicircular bearings?

 

I was talking previously and someone else mentioned the aesthetic differences between the ES 10 and the AD 10.  After looking at some more pictures of the 
ES I'm starting to think it's a sexy looking scope.  Previously I was hooked on the sleek black apertura with the silver bearings but I'm thinking the Explore Scientific may have it beat.  Just another thought to confuse my choice.  Thanks again all.


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#46 Charles Funk

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Posted 23 February 2019 - 09:06 AM

Thanks all for your help.  I've narrowed my choice to the Explore Scientific solid 10" or the Apertura AD 10.  The ES is substantially cheaper with a first time buyer discount.  Aperture's are currently back ordered anyway.  To make me more confused I saw a 10 " Orion XT Classic on sale used and the I started thinking is the f/4.7 too fast compared with the others, is it worth it, etc.  So I'm seriously thinking of pulling the trigger on the 10" ES (maybe with a 2 speed focuser upgrade.

 

Question for Asbytec:

 

I'm thinking of getting the ES 10".  I spoke with them and they will upgrade to a 2 speed focuser for $71 extra prior to shipping.  Do you think it is needed? worth it? or is the stock focuser easy to use?  Also do you think the 8 " is sufficient or  think the 10 " would be better.    What is your overall impression of the Explore Scientific Solid tube with the big semicircular bearings?

 

I was talking previously and someone else mentioned the aesthetic differences between the ES 10 and the AD 10.  After looking at some more pictures of the 
ES I'm starting to think it's a sexy looking scope.  Previously I was hooked on the sleek black apertura with the silver bearings but I'm thinking the Explore Scientific may have it beat.  Just another thought to confuse my choice.  Thanks again all.

The 2 speed focuser is well worth $71.

 

If you are questioning whether or not to get the 10", you should probably get the 10"

 

I believe all things considered, looks is the last thing I'd worry about in a telescope, but I understand that means a lot to a lot of people. If it were me, based on looks alone, I'd probably go with the ES.



#47 Jomar

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 03:18 PM

I'm very excited!  I pulled the trigger on the Explore Scientific First Light 10" dobsonian,  I've wanted a telescope since I was 5 years old and I finally bought one 50 years later. waytogo.gif  Got lucky and caught it when it was $459.  They're up to $699 now.  I 'll update when it arrives and I unbox it. 

 

There's not many photos and only one video of this scope that I'm aware of (under a minute long), so I'll try to post some photos if I can figure how to.  Thanks all for your input.  It wan't an easy decision.... but then again none ever are for me.  confused1.gif  


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#48 Jond105

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 09:21 PM

Congrats on your purchase. Great job getting it before the increase in pricing as well. 



#49 gnowellsct

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 10:39 PM

It's not paint on plastic, it is paint that itself is plastic. I don't argue about color effect on emissivity in other materials, just saying that it doesn't matter for thermal performance what color your telescope tube is painted with. Even if we take values for plastic, that's 10% difference. Part of the heat is removed by convection, so it's closer to 5% total.

 

Bottom line: pick the color you like, and don't worry about it's effect on cooling. And if you have thermal issues use a fan rather than painting your OTA wink.gif

having suffered with an all - black observing chair for a couple of years before dragging it out to the driveway and spray painting it white (haven't tripped over it since), I would say that a black dob is not ideal for the reason that it is more trip-over-me than a white tube.   

 

I've done OK with my Losmandy (black) tripod, but there's all kind of red lights signaling that there's a scope there.  The ATS pier is white and the Berlebach is wood-blonde, and both are much easier to see at night.    

 

But in any case those scopes are raised to eye level.  Not so these (smaller) dobs.  They have to be 14, 15, 18 inches before they're in your face and you see them.   GN



#50 SIDO

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Posted 09 March 2019 - 04:06 AM

having suffered with an all - bthis ck observing chair for a couple of years before dragging it out to the driveway and spray painting it white (haven't tripped over it since), I would say that a black dob is not ideal for the reason that it is more trip-over-me than a white tube.   

 

I've done OK with my Losmandy (black) tripod, but there's all kind of red lights signaling that there's a scope there.  The ATS pier is white and the Berlebach is wood-blonde, and both are much easier to see at night.    

 

But in any case those scopes are raised to eye level.  Not so these (smaller) dobs.  They have to be 14, 15, 18 inches before they're in your face and you see them.   GN

Interesting discussion on colour being had here and I rarely coment but in this case I just see something to share,...

 

My night scopes are all black (chairs too) yes approaching my observing site pre setup and not dark adapted requires using my red penlight but once seated adapted and with an eyepatch in place there is little reflected light not even natural reflected light so this insures I reach the maximum photon sensitivity obtainable and assures I will see every possible detail.

 

Of course my solar scopes are white to keep internal heat low as I use long focus achromatic doublets that are pointed up were heat rises up through and around the objective these related thermal disortions are reduced by reducing thermal signature.

 

The eyepatch allows me to keep one eye fully dark adapted at all times, changing to the other eye after viewing a bright star in the finder or scope and allows me to get the most out of every observation as well allows one to view bright planets & Moon then dso within seconds of one another or take a coffee break an not trip over stuff on the way back wich even if black one can easily see with a fully dark adapted eye or even return utilizing a bright flashlight and still retain night vision.

 

Colour of the scope does indeed matter, proper light management in all regards will get you the most photons and the best possible views.

 

The AD 10 would be an excellent choice in my humble opinion. Not just because it's black though...but because I use the 8 and it's an awesome scope.

 

                                   Best of Luck Everyone,

                                          

                                                 Freddie...


Edited by SIDO, 09 March 2019 - 05:31 AM.

  • skywatcher99 likes this


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