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Can anyone make heads or tails re my AVX PHd logs?

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#1 Ballyhoo

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:15 PM

i got really exited that I think I got good results last night then I realize, the devil is in the details of which i do not fully understand yet.

 

https://openphdguidi...2_logs_gbqs.zip



#2 Jim Waters

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:22 PM

Post your logs and a description of the problem here.  Include all details.

 

https://groups.googl...pen-phd-guiding

 

Were you imaging?  If so post a pic.


Edited by Jim Waters, 11 February 2019 - 07:23 PM.


#3 OldManSky

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:29 PM

FYI, you can download a free program to view/analyze your PHD2 logs here:

 

http://adgsoftware.com/phd2utils/

 

The log shows you did 2 guiding sessions.  The first one had RA RMS of 4.79", DEC of 16.01", total of 16.71".  At about 11:39PM, there's a HUGE error, and the guide star was lost (bumped the mount?).

That session shows a polar alignment error of 15.5'.

 

The second session had RA RMS of 1.20", and DEC of 2.34", total of 2.63".  Much better, but still just mediocre.

That session shows a polar alignment error of 10.1' -- better than the first one, still a fair amount off.

 

The first calibration appears to have failed completely.  The second one was fine.  Mostly orthoganal, a bit of DEC backlash, some non-axial movement during DEC motor steps.

 

Did you re-do polar alignment after the first guiding attempt?


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#4 Ballyhoo

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:31 PM

thank you. Here was a pic from last night.

 

I thought it went well actually but I realize there could be gremlins under there somewhere.   What i think is good data on the surface, could be a disaster when it is processed.

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  • RAVE TO AVX.gif


#5 Ballyhoo

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:43 PM

What could I possibly be doing wrong here? I drag and dropped the guide file and also I tried t open it from file but I get nothing but this?



#6 Ballyhoo

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:45 PM

What could I possibly be doing wrong here? I drag and dropped the guide file and also I tried t open it from file but I get nothing but this?

 

edit, I  understand that a but more



#7 OldManSky

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:46 PM

Go to the "Log Sections" box at the top left.

Drag the slider on the right of that box to the top of its range.

You'll see 4 sections listed (2 calibrations, 2 Guiding sessions).

Click on one of those to see details/graphs.  Right now you're only seeing the first (failed) calibration.



#8 Ballyhoo

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:47 PM

What could I possibly be doing wrong here? I drag and dropped the guide file and also I tried t open it from file but I get nothing but this?

 

 

 

 

 

edit edit:

 

should I we be turning on backlash compensation?  I would presume the default settings have been well thought out. 

 

:Guiding Begins at 2019-02-11 00:16:40

Dither = both axes, Dither scale = 1.000, Image noise reduction = none, Guide-frame time lapse = 0, Server disabled
Pixel scale = 7.73 arc-sec/px, Binning = 1, Focal length = 200 mm
Search region = 20 px, Star mass tolerance = 50.0%
Equipment Profile = CELESTRON
Camera = Meade DSI, gain = 80, full size = 508 x 489, have dark, dark dur = 1000, no defect map, pixel size = 7.5 um
Exposure = 1000 ms
Mount = Celestron Nexstar+ AVX 5.29,  connected, guiding enabled, xAngle = 82.6, xRate = 0.374, yAngle = -10.4, yRate = 0.948, parity = +/-,
X guide algorithm = Hysteresis, Hysteresis = 0.100, Aggression = 0.700, Minimum move = 0.170
Y guide algorithm = Resist Switch, Minimum move = 0.170 Aggression = 100% FastSwitch = enabled
Backlash comp = disabled, pulse = 20 ms
Calibration step = phdlab_placeholder, Max RA duration = 2500, Max DEC duration = 2500, DEC guide mode = Auto
RA Guide Speed = 7.5 a-s/s, Dec Guide Speed = 7.5 a-s/s, Cal Dec = -5.8, Last Cal Issue = None, Timestamp = 2/10/2019 11:29:52 PM
RA = 9.95 hr, Dec = 69.0 deg, Hour angle = -0.06 hr, Pier side = East, Rotator pos = N/A, Alt = 54.4 deg, Az = 0.5 deg

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  • guidelog view.gif


#9 Ballyhoo

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:51 PM

FYI, you can download a free program to view/analyze your PHD2 logs here:

 

http://adgsoftware.com/phd2utils/

 

The log shows you did 2 guiding sessions.  The first one had RA RMS of 4.79", DEC of 16.01", total of 16.71".  At about 11:39PM, there's a HUGE error, and the guide star was lost (bumped the mount?).

That session shows a polar alignment error of 15.5'.

 

The second session had RA RMS of 1.20", and DEC of 2.34", total of 2.63".  Much better, but still just mediocre.

That session shows a polar alignment error of 10.1' -- better than the first one, still a fair amount off.

 

The first calibration appears to have failed completely.  The second one was fine.  Mostly orthoganal, a bit of DEC backlash, some non-axial movement during DEC motor steps.

 

Did you re-do polar alignment after the first guiding attempt?

no i only ever PA'd once last night. 



#10 OldManSky

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:58 PM

Just for reference, I opened one of my PHD2 log files from last Saturday night, a 104-minute guiding session with a CEM25P mount.

For polar alignment I used the iOptron polar scope, then the PHD2 Static Polar Alignment routine -- total of about 10 minutes doing PA.

 

The mount load is carefully balanced.  I got an RA RMS of 0.39", DEC of 0.89", total of 0.96".  Polar alignment error was 0.8'.

 

I don't mention those to "brag" -- just that if you get to know your equipment, get to know PA routines, check everything twice, balance carefully, etc. it's not that hard to get pretty good numbers.  And better looking stars in the final result :)

 

I've been doing this a long time, so I've had lots of practice.  You'll get there.  You're making progress.  Keep working at it!  That second session in your log (other than the big bump where the star was lost, which I suspect was you focusing or having bumped the mount) wasn't bad at all, though you really should be able to get closer than 10.1' in PA without that much work.


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#11 OldManSky

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 08:03 PM

no i only ever PA'd once last night. 

Then since the second run was 5' better than the first in PA error, you might have some flexure in your mount setup.  Such that the orientation of the load on the second run "leaned" the RA axis a little closer to correct PA than on the first run.

Mount head not screwed down tight against the tripod base, tripod legs a bit wobbly, bearing wobble in the RA axis...lots of possibilities.

In the long run, that second run wasn't really that bad.  Pretty good numbers.  What error there was was able to mostly be guided out, which is good.


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#12 DuncanM

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 08:04 PM

Also this is an easy to use utility to analysis your PHD2 logs:

 

http://www.siriusima...tup_1.4.0.0.exe


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#13 Ballyhoo

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 08:17 PM

Then since the second run was 5' better than the first in PA error, you might have some flexure in your mount setup.  Such that the orientation of the load on the second run "leaned" the RA axis a little closer to correct PA than on the first run.

Mount head not screwed down tight against the tripod base, tripod legs a bit wobbly, bearing wobble in the RA axis...lots of possibilities.

In the long run, that second run wasn't really that bad.  Pretty good numbers.  What error there was was able to mostly be guided out, which is good.

I Didnt mention or even think to until you mentioned the flexure component, I was set up at a dirt trail-head, which was of course very moist (not drenched) It was quite charming really, frogs  and all. the nature affect with astronomy is to be revered IMHO.


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#14 scadvice

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:21 PM

Something of interest to consider is the ground your setting up on. I am setting up on asphalt most of the time and after I've PA there is always a period of time in between where I'm fiddling with one thing or an other and I have found that things actually can to settle some during that period. Even with a CEM60 on aTriPier.  So, after doing my three star alignment and just before going to my nights image I go back and recheck the polar alignment with PoleMaster (it's fast with the PoleMaster to do so). It is surprising how many times have found things are off (Usually only a little) that I may have to tweak it again.

 

What started me doing this check was reviewing the PHD log and finding the PA off as much as 10.0' even though I know it was much, much better the first go around!! 

 

Now, if I'm getting poor guiding results after doing all the above...the first thing I do is stop the guiding and go back and check the PA.  BTW - I now consider anything above .9 to 1.0' Total RMS worth going back and taking a look. Nothing is worse than ending a session and finding that you wasted all night for a little 10 minute routine check. 

 

Cold yes! it was 28F last session. So I can't wait to get it going too. Unfortunately, there are no short cuts. Once I've got the imaging going for a half hour I head for the house. I usually go out check every twenty minutes or so at first then if things are going good... every half hour. I always check the time for crossing the Meridian and make sure I'm out for that. 

 

I suggest going to a sporting goods store and getting some ski pants they make a big, big difference and I have a pair of gloves with liners in them where I've cut the fingers out of those liners so when I take the main glove off my hands still are somewhat protected.

 

Last comment... I spend three nights just practicing PA (Before PoleMaster) and then running PHD until I figured I knew what I was doing . No intent to do imaging. Well it didn't happen...the first night out after the practice sessions everything messed up and wouldn't work. I missed one little fact on my note list... doesn't matter what it was but it stopped me dead in the water for that night. You have to remember this is a hobby, so enjoy the road...even the bumpy parts.


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#15 Wildetelescope

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 09:49 PM

Something of interest to consider is the ground your setting up on. I am setting up on asphalt most of the time and after I've PA there is always a period of time in between where I'm fiddling with one thing or an other and I have found that things actually can to settle some during that period. Even with a CEM60 on aTriPier.  So, after doing my three star alignment and just before going to my nights image I go back and recheck the polar alignment with PoleMaster (it's fast with the PoleMaster to do so). It is surprising how many times have found things are off (Usually only a little) that I may have to tweak it again.

 

What started me doing this check was reviewing the PHD log and finding the PA off as much as 10.0' even though I know it was much, much better the first go around!! 

 

Now, if I'm getting poor guiding results after doing all the above...the first thing I do is stop the guiding and go back and check the PA.  BTW - I now consider anything above .9 to 1.0' Total RMS worth going back and taking a look. Nothing is worse than ending a session and finding that you wasted all night for a little 10 minute routine check. 

 

Cold yes! it was 28F last session. So I can't wait to get it going too. Unfortunately, there are no short cuts. Once I've got the imaging going for a half hour I head for the house. I usually go out check every twenty minutes or so at first then if things are going good... every half hour. I always check the time for crossing the Meridian and make sure I'm out for that. 

 

I suggest going to a sporting goods store and getting some ski pants they make a big, big difference and I have a pair of gloves with liners in them where I've cut the fingers out of those liners so when I take the main glove off my hands still are somewhat protected.

 

Last comment... I spend three nights just practicing PA (Before PoleMaster) and then running PHD until I figured I knew what I was doing . No intent to do imaging. Well it didn't happen...the first night out after the practice sessions everything messed up and wouldn't work. I missed one little fact on my note list... doesn't matter what it was but it stopped me dead in the water for that night. You have to remember this is a hobby, so enjoy the road...even the bumpy parts.

Yep. Agree completely!  I have just recently started guiding myself.  Spent the last 6 years or so going unguided, short imaging, working on things like polar alignment, learning to use goto, learning to focus the camera, Learning to process images(still working on that!) etc...   Only in the last month have I started actually guiding and it took me 3 nights to get that working right.   But each time out I learn something new, so it was a positive experience.   Still working on understanding the PHD2 settings and what can be done to optimize things, etc...   The funny thing is, the minute I was able to take 5-10 minute exposures, a whole host of OTHER things jump out as issues I have to address.  Cable management, Image calibration, Light pollution(i.e. now I need to try some filters..), Satellites!  !@# Satellites:-). Oh, and I am on a flight path to a major Airport.  Never thought twice about it until I see streaks in my beautiful five minute exposure of Orion and the Running Man.   LoL.  

 

Not complaining mind you.  I love the challenge of learning new things and in that respect, imaging astronomy is the gift that keeps on giving:-).   I absolutely agree that it is always important to keep in mind this is a marathon, not a sprint and to take heart in the little victories along the way.  When I reach the end of my rope with the camera, I pull out my eyepieces and just enjoy the view.   There is always something to look at and always something new to learn.   Persevere and you will succeed!

 

Cheers!

 

JMD


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#16 Jim Waters

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 10:01 PM

Can you tell the P-P error of the worm from this data?



#17 rgsalinger

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 09:34 AM

Looking at your guide log there are two things that I would change immdediately. First reduce the DEC aggression to something more appropriate like 50 percent. You have it set at 100 percent and that can (and may have here) caused the system to see-saw back and forth. Second, you are guiding at 8 arc seconds per pixel. That is going to be (IMHO) very challenging. You need a smaller pixel in the guide camera or a longer guide scope. As a corollary that means that with minimum move set to .17 you are not even trying to make a correction until the guiding error is greater than 1.4 arc seconds. Again a bad practice. Set it to .1 and you may get better results.

 

Even at 100 percent your DEC axis never crosses the zero point. This has to mean that you are not well polar aligned (?). Check the PA carefully before starting. I can't think of any other reason for a graph like this. 

 

Overall, I'm thinking that the camera with those big pixels is going to be problematic using a short guide scope.  I hate to recommend spending money but in this case I think that changing out that guide camera for something with smaller pixels is going to make things a lot better. If my PA error conjecture is correct (how did you do that PA?) then again, buy a copy of sharpcap or a Polemaster (which IMHO is easier to use but more expensive) and make life easy for yourself.

 

Setting up on dirt is a great idea if the dirt is packed down hard. If it's soft, well then you have problems. You've probably got some cabling problems here as well - see the rather large excursions - but I think that the advice above (sorry about that guide camera) will give you much better results. 

 

 

Rgrds-Ross


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#18 Stelios

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:07 PM

Can you please post a link to a file that is *not* a zip? One only needs the guide log (PHD2_GuideLog_yyyy-mm-dd_hhmmss.txt). I prefer not to open .zip files for security purposes.



#19 Ballyhoo

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 01:44 AM

Can you please post a link to a file that is *not* a zip? One only needs the guide log (PHD2_GuideLog_yyyy-mm-dd_hhmmss.txt). I prefer not to open .zip files for security purposes.

I am not sure how to do that, Phd provides a link.


Edited by Ballyhoo, 13 February 2019 - 01:45 AM.


#20 Ballyhoo

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 01:54 AM

Looking at your guide log there are two things that I would change immdediately. First reduce the DEC aggression to something more appropriate like 50 percent. You have it set at 100 percent and that can (and may have here) caused the system to see-saw back and forth. Second, you are guiding at 8 arc seconds per pixel. That is going to be (IMHO) very challenging. You need a smaller pixel in the guide camera or a longer guide scope. As a corollary that means that with minimum move set to .17 you are not even trying to make a correction until the guiding error is greater than 1.4 arc seconds. Again a bad practice. Set it to .1 and you may get better results.

 

Even at 100 percent your DEC axis never crosses the zero point. This has to mean that you are not well polar aligned (?). Check the PA carefully before starting. I can't think of any other reason for a graph like this. 

 

Overall, I'm thinking that the camera with those big pixels is going to be problematic using a short guide scope.  I hate to recommend spending money but in this case I think that changing out that guide camera for something with smaller pixels is going to make things a lot better. If my PA error conjecture is correct (how did you do that PA?) then again, buy a copy of sharpcap or a Polemaster (which IMHO is easier to use but more expensive) and make life easy for yourself.

 

Setting up on dirt is a great idea if the dirt is packed down hard. If it's soft, well then you have problems. You've probably got some cabling problems here as well - see the rather large excursions - but I think that the advice above (sorry about that guide camera) will give you much better results. 

 

 

Rgrds-Ross

are you telling me that each pixel on the ancient (That makes us all very ancient) DSI 1 represents too much sky? There must be a way to adjust or accomodate the settings until I have the heart to lay that ole camera to rest and pocket a new model. Can you please restate what some adjustments would be? I understand some but not all of what you are saying!  thank you for taking the time. 

 

My other option is slapping it on my Giant Antares 80mm finder-scope, but how realistic is that?  Another prob w the DSI 1 is it is not compatible with SharpCap. There is no ascom for it. Therefore no SharpCap PA. PA is done by placing polaris in the polar scope and rotating the constellation legends therein to wherever the respective constellations are in the sky.  For that AVX that would mean my best option would be to add an ASPA. 

IN the same token I am getting a replacement cable for my IEQ45 for I will likely be falling back on that, with the same DSI 1 issue. 

 

How much will I need to spend on a diff guide camera, should it come to that inevitability? 

 

Thank you!



#21 Stelios

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 03:42 AM

How much will I need to spend on a diff guide camera, should it come to that inevitability? 

 

Thank you!

Guidescope camera: $149 for the ASI120MM-mini. As Bob likes to say, one of the few things that are both cheap (relatively) and good.

 

In general, few have had much luck with Meade, Celestron or Orion cameras for astrophotography. That's primarily because that's not the focus of those companies. They rebrand something, don't care much how good it is as long as it's not very expensive. They also don't care to provide full support (updated drivers, etc.), and generally the products end up orphans and sold at a massive discount a year or so down the line. 

 

Of course that doesn't mean those cameras are junk. For example, I believe the Starshoot Autoguider (the original) was, in effect, an QHY5L (someone correct me if I've got the model wrong). But it was/is overpriced, and now outdated. 



#22 rgsalinger

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 05:43 AM

Yes, each pixel is taking up too much sky. That camera has to be replaced, I think, if you are to get better results. At 8 arc seconds per pixel, the best you can expect to get is around 1 arc second of RMS guide error, IMHO. At that level, any other mechanical issue will give you poor guiding and poor results. 

 

Second, I am wondering about that "cable" you say that you need. You should be using ASCOM guiding with that mount. You hook up the PC to the hand controller. You don't need another cable going to the camera - just the USB cable if you use ASCOM guiding. Take a couple of hours and go through the PHD documentation to better understand the settings.

 

It's also obvious smirk.gif that you are not polar aligning with sufficient accuracy. You can use the main camera instead of the guide camera with Sharpcap. Presumably your main camera is compatible with it. 

 

I'm afraid that it's tricky to get going in this hobby without a mentor and a bit of unplanned investment. 

 

Rgrds-Ross


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#23 42itous1

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 09:37 AM

I use my asi1600 and main scope with sharpcap for PA--works fine.



#24 Night shift

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 11:16 AM

 It is time to move past this stumbling block and invest in a 60mm guide scope and camera. We have all gone through this in our own learning curve. Guiding is something you can not do without. I chose a ZWO guide scope and a ZWO120 camera. The return was no more guiding issues and fast and easy setup. You will also be able to use Sharpcap PA and away you go.

 There are no shortcuts in learning this hobby. It is time and patience.   



#25 Ballyhoo

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 11:37 AM

This may sound crazy but how about if I barlow the DSI 1 guide scope?

 

Look, this is all about improvement and getting to a great place in the hobby.  But if the results are not currently satisfactory, what about POst #4 & 11?

 

I am not wanting to argue w anyone. I Would like to divide the "must have/must gets" on the left and on the right a "wish list."  Is a new guide camera a must or a wish?  I ask bc I know that many have, or are, guiding with the DSI 1.  

I am just looking at all sides. I can also see that I have a $1700 refactor, $1700 mount, $1000 camera, perhaps, well, is there an expression for saving money on a cheap piece of equipment when you have an otherwise valuable set-up?  "Penny wise, ... pound foolish?"

 

I do not want to rush out and get something unless I have to. But hey, if $150 will make my guiding noticeably easier, then yea

 

Regarding the cable I need: perhaps I could look at connecting the HC to the main camera, but the IEQ45 seems fickle like that.

 

Great thread,  great feedback, IMHO. Thank you all!


Edited by Ballyhoo, 13 February 2019 - 12:08 PM.



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