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Object near M42

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#1 RogeZ

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Posted 17 February 2019 - 11:57 PM

Hi folks:

 

I'm sorry for posting this here but I don't have a good database for asteriods or most smaller objects. Could anybody take a look at what object (asteroid or such) is this?

 

The following is a stack of 5min images of M42 in H-alpha. Images were taken from 9:40-10:28pm on 2/17/2019

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Roger M

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  • Object_in_Orion-LR.jpg

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#2 ZL4PLM

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 01:31 AM

prob geosat - lots of them that area :)


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#3 RogeZ

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 06:31 AM

Too slow. Would have moved more in that time I think.

#4 Zebenelgenubi

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 09:14 AM

Did you eliminate the chance of a hot pixel? Is the subframe drift before alignment along the trajectory of the object?



#5 Dan Crowson

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 11:02 AM

I'm with Zebenelgenubi. I pulled up TheSkyX with all the asteroids (~790k) and there's nothing showing at that location going down to mag 30. I would suspect a satellite would have moved through in a few seconds. Did you blink through the images?

Dan



#6 DaveB

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 05:26 PM

My vote is an asteroid. My planetarium program show asteroid 65235 2002 EG97 at mag 19.1 going through Orion but on the east side, while your image shows your object on the west side (unless the image is rotated). The path (direction and length) of 65235 2002 EG97 are consistent with what you see in your image, which is a good indicator since asteroids usually follow the same path as their neighbors. My asteroid catalog only has 70,000 in it, however, so there are many more asteroids that aren't in my catalog snippet.

 

 

Here is an image that I posted in another thread that showed 5 asteroids, only one of which is listed in the first 70,000 numbered asteroids. As you can see, they all travel along the same path.

 

p3294837079.gif


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#7 Dan Crowson

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 07:59 PM

As you mention, wrong place unless his dates are incorrect. Either way, there's no way he'd pick up a 19th magnitude asteroid in Ha.
 
Dan



#8 Zebenelgenubi

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 09:53 PM

My vote is an asteroid. My planetarium program show asteroid 65235 2002 EG97 at mag 19.1 going through Orion but on the east side, while your image shows your object on the west side (unless the image is rotated). The path (direction and length) of 65235 2002 EG97 are consistent with what you see in your image, which is a good indicator since asteroids usually follow the same path as their neighbors. My asteroid catalog only has 70,000 in it, however, so there are many more asteroids that aren't in my catalog snippet.

 

 

Here is an image that I posted in another thread that showed 5 asteroids, only one of which is listed in the first 70,000 numbered asteroids. As you can see, they all travel along the same path.

 

p3294837079.gif

Wow perfectly parallel paths and at identical rates.  I hope you are facetious. Great image though.


Edited by Zebenelgenubi, 18 February 2019 - 10:08 PM.

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#9 RogeZ

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 10:00 PM

Hi guys thanks for all the input. I checked my images and only one image shows the "object" which now seems more and more like a cosmic ray maybe? I thought my stack with Sigma rejection would take care of outliers but it kept it.

 

Dave that's a beautiful image btw. Gorgeous



#10 DaveB

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 11:25 PM

Wow perfectly parallel paths and at identical rates.  I hope you are facetious. Great image though.

Thanks (to you and the OP) for the complement, but this is not a fake image if that's what you mean. It's gif created from a sequence over the span of an hour or two, taken on Nov 7 in the area of NGC680 (North is to the right). I used the Blink process in PixInsight to create an .avi file, then converted the avi to gif. These are five real asteroids. Only the bright one in the center is catalogued in my planetarium program - 20477 Anastroda.


Edited by DaveB, 18 February 2019 - 11:32 PM.


#11 RogeZ

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 06:48 AM

Dave could you provide the specs of the image.

 

Sensor size. scope etc.

 

Thanks,

 

Roger M



#12 DaveB

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 09:49 AM

Sure - AT10RC with a 0.65 focal reducer, which ends up being roughly 1400mm focal length. The camera uses an 8300 CCD, which is 22.5mm x 18mm (https://www.onsemi.c.../KAF-8300-D.PDF). The resulting FOV of the image is about 46' x 35', give or take.

 

The GIF above is a sequence of 5 minute Lum subs. The final image is the most recent photo on my Astrobin page. Personally, I think that a little wider field would make a better framing with this group, but this was the best fit with the equipment that I have.


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#13 Dan Crowson

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 10:17 AM

Sure - AT10RC with a 0.65 focal reducer, which ends up being roughly 1400mm focal length. The camera uses an 8300 CCD, which is 22.5mm x 18mm (https://www.onsemi.c.../KAF-8300-D.PDF). The resulting FOV of the image is about 46' x 35', give or take.

20477 Anastroda (mag 17.76) near the center
70294 1999 RT125 (mag 18.12) to the left of 20477
70336 1999 RO169 (mag 18.47) heading towards the bright star
70530 1999 TP117 (mag 18.67) between the bright stars
81935 2000 OT29 (mag 18.60) near Arp 31 (S-galaxy at the top)
 
Dan



#14 DaveB

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 02:52 PM

Thanks Dan! I need to update/expand my asteroid catalog beyond the first 70000 items.



#15 RogeZ

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 08:18 PM

20477 Anastroda (mag 17.76) near the center
70294 1999 RT125 (mag 18.12) to the left of 20477
70336 1999 RO169 (mag 18.47) heading towards the bright star
70530 1999 TP117 (mag 18.67) between the bright stars
81935 2000 OT29 (mag 18.60) near Arp 31 (S-galaxy at the top)
 
Dan

Dan:

 

Could you refer me and the folks reading this to what software package and add ons are you using. that's an amazing wealth of information!



#16 Zebenelgenubi

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 09:26 PM

Thanks (to you and the OP) for the complement, but this is not a fake image if that's what you mean. It's gif created from a sequence over the span of an hour or two, taken on Nov 7 in the area of NGC680 (North is to the right). I used the Blink process in PixInsight to create an .avi file, then converted the avi to gif. These are five real asteroids. Only the bright one in the center is catalogued in my planetarium program - 20477 Anastroda.

No nothing fake.  My point is that the moving objects in the frames are moving on exactly parallel trajectories and at exactly the same angle rate.  It seems that they are behaving exactly like hot pixels drifting with tracking errors in stacked undithered sub frames.  If they are asteroids then the behavior is quite weird.  If you did dither the subframes in the image then I am good with your explanation.



#17 DaveB

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 09:37 PM

No nothing fake.  My point is that the moving objects in the frames are moving on exactly parallel trajectories and at exactly the same angle rate.  It seems that they are behaving exactly like hot pixels drifting with tracking errors in stacked undithered sub frames.  If they are asteroids then the behavior is quite weird.  If you did dither the subframes in the image then I am good with your explanation.

Ah, got it. I do dither, but every 5 frames or so. But the sequence has about 15-20 frames, so I did at least two dithers during this sequence. Also, north is to the right of the frame (within a degree or two), so I would assume that a hot pixel would move vertically, correct?

 

I was surprised by this behavior as well, but when I looked at my planetarium program and simulated a couple of hours of movement, *all* of the neighboring asteroids out of the FOV (~50 or so) were moving in roughly the same direction. The closer they were, the more they were in sync. As you would get ~4 or more degrees distant, I can start seeing some variations. It's as if I'm watching leaves flowing down a stream. The ones next to each other move together, but as you get further apart, they are not as tightly synchronized but they are still moving in the same general direction.

 

You can actually see a simulation of this effect here: http://www.asterank.com/. You can adjust the number of asteroids shown to 1000 or 4000 to see even more asteroids in the simulation.


Edited by DaveB, 19 February 2019 - 09:41 PM.


#18 DaveB

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 10:09 PM

Dan:

 

Could you refer me and the folks reading this to what software package and add ons are you using. that's an amazing wealth of information!

I would suggest that you install a free planetarium program like Cartes du Ciel that allows you to import external catalogs (I don't know if Stellarium allows catalog loading - if it does, that is another option). Then you can download the asteroid data to that program and specify a time that you want to observe. I believe that Cartes du Ciel makes it easy to download the catalog with a wizard, but I'm not sure.

 

I use Skymap Pro for a planetarium program. It's a great tool, but it is not free and is no longer in active development (but it is still for sale). I am working on importing the asteroid catalog from https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/data to Skymap, but I have to create a script to format the catalog data so that Skymap can use it.


Edited by DaveB, 19 February 2019 - 10:11 PM.


#19 Dan Crowson

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 10:32 PM

I use TheSkyX Pro. It can import them by you typing them in or it will also read the latest asteroid file that a lot of other programs can also use. I suspect SkyMap can load the standard file below. Anyway, when I do this, I then limit by magnitude to cut out a lot of the ones too faint for my setup.
 
I grab the file from here - ftp://ftp.lowell.edu/pub/elgb/astorb.dat.gz. Remove the .gz to get the uncompressed text version.
 
After imaging for a bit, you can get a feel for how deep you can go (these are moving so not near as deep as a stationary object) and where you can point in the sky to capture a lot of them. Aries is a good place... I wanted to catch a bunch of IFN from a dark site so I took a bunch of 30 minute exposures with my 90mm refractor. I think I have 15 - 20 moving around. I tend to post 'unprocessed' stacks when I catch obvious asteroids here - https://www.flickr.c...157632773671313.

Dan



#20 Zebenelgenubi

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 09:44 AM

Ah, got it. I do dither, but every 5 frames or so. But the sequence has about 15-20 frames, so I did at least two dithers during this sequence. Also, north is to the right of the frame (within a degree or two), so I would assume that a hot pixel would move vertically, correct?

 

I was surprised by this behavior as well, but when I looked at my planetarium program and simulated a couple of hours of movement, *all* of the neighboring asteroids out of the FOV (~50 or so) were moving in roughly the same direction. The closer they were, the more they were in sync. As you would get ~4 or more degrees distant, I can start seeing some variations. It's as if I'm watching leaves flowing down a stream. The ones next to each other move together, but as you get further apart, they are not as tightly synchronized but they are still moving in the same general direction.

 

You can actually see a simulation of this effect here: http://www.asterank.com/. You can adjust the number of asteroids shown to 1000 or 4000 to see even more asteroids in the simulation.

The drift error can go in any direction depending on the polar alignment offset and periodic error in the mount.  I am still think we are looking at hot pixels.  The dark bands at the top and left side of the image you posted indicate that stacking moved the image in both the vertical and horizontal directions.  The width of the bands indicate that the motion was larger in the vertical than horizontal direction.  That's consistent with the motion of the objects that I can see in the GIF image.  You would need to look at the individual unstacked frames to confirm that the objects are actually moving wrt the background stars.  If they are stationary for 5 frames then jump with the commanded dither, then they are hot pixels.  If the move continuously on a frame to frame basis then wow. 


Edited by Zebenelgenubi, 20 February 2019 - 11:04 AM.


#21 Dan Crowson

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 02:28 PM

Zebenelgenubi,
 
the 'hot pixels' are definitely asteroids as they match (perfectly) with what I see in my planetarium program. It is a bit unusual for the ones showing up to all be moving roughly the same direction but that does happen at times.
 
Dan


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#22 Zebenelgenubi

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 06:14 PM

Zebenelgenubi,
 
the 'hot pixels' are definitely asteroids as they match (perfectly) with what I see in my planetarium program. It is a bit unusual for the ones showing up to all be moving roughly the same direction but that does happen at times.
 
Dan

 

That being the case, you have both a beautiful deep sky image image and significant solar system object capture.  Is there anyway to use the planetarium SW to predict when such cluster events will happen?  I would like to try a capture.



#23 freestar8n

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 06:56 PM

Zebenelgenubi,
 
the 'hot pixels' are definitely asteroids as they match (perfectly) with what I see in my planetarium program. It is a bit unusual for the ones showing up to all be moving roughly the same direction but that does happen at times.
 
Dan

The animation surprised me also - but even in individual frames the asteroids have a clear profile different from a hot pixel.

 

I checked when the images were captured (last November) and it looks like the scene is close to the ecliptic and near opposition with the earth nearly in between the asteroids and the sun.  That's good geometry for the asteroids to be as bright as possible - and for the apparent motion to be retrograde and dominated by the Earth's much faster true motion.

 

So I think that is why they all appear to be moving the same way - it's mostly our motion that is causing the trails - and that is why it's about the same for all.

 

This is a bit off topic from the OP's question - but I think it's all a good thread on what asteroids might look like and how to tell them from artifact.  

 

Frank


Edited by freestar8n, 20 February 2019 - 08:50 PM.

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#24 t_image

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 09:05 PM

Hi guys thanks for all the input. I checked my images and only one image shows the "object" which now seems more and more like a cosmic ray maybe? I thought my stack with Sigma rejection would take care of outliers but it kept it.

 

Dave that's a beautiful image btw. Gorgeous

 

Too slow. Would have moved more in that time I think.

Maybe you are only addressing Geosats, but there is danger in dismissing satellites/rocketbodies as not potential candidates based on angular velocity.

Of course, the first assumption might be that because the streak stays within the frame, the object took the 48 minutes (of stack) [not including any delay between images if not calculated] to cross the amount of the streak seen.

However, further investigation you did into the actual subs show it only is seen in one 5 min. sub if I read your post correctly?

So maybe we can assume to narrow its speed into covering that streak in 5 minutes?

But not so fast (pun intended)....

Since only one of the continuous subs (assuming you didn't have a long (multi-minute break) between subs,

then it would not make sense for the subs before the one with the artifact and after to not show a continuation,

IF the streak showed a continuously lit object moving across.

So the speed assumption can only be used if the object is presumed to be continuously lit during its entire travel through the frame.

 

However, since the before/after frames have no hint of the object,

it would be reasonable to deduct that the one sub captured a flare event of the object into the limiting magnitude(momentary, not integrated LM) of the single 5 min. image,

then the before/after (even maybe during the image with the streak) and the subs before/after would have not captured the continuation because the object had faded/was darker than the limiting magnitude (momentary, not integrated) of the image reach.

 

With only the shared stack, it is a little pointless to do, but observing an individual sub compared with a starchart one can quickly assess the limiting magnitude of the individual sub. Comparing the brightness of the streak to other stars in the image, finding a star's magnitude that is similar would demonstrate that object would then have to be many times brighter than the comparative star since the star had 5 minutes for its integrated brightness to build in the image while the object moves across pixels and has less time to integrate brighter into its pixels.....Thus one can guess at what the least magnitude the object may be.

 

Overlaying the image with Equatorial lines, one can estimate the inclination. Note Geosats would trace parallel with the lines from right to left across the image (rotated to EQ configuration)..

 

42haoverlay.jpg

 

Interestingly Ariane 44L Deb, NORAD 23239 (643 minute orbit period) passes near the streak location at ~21:55EST that night. From its radar cross section Calsky estimates its brightness could get to around mag. 10. Its inclined path shows a little different however.

 

A closer look at the streak shows brightness variations in the pixel brightness,

but that might be attributed to seeing issues (DSO AP'ers forget seeing effects since it is averaged out in a long exposure, but moving objects trace across pixels in short time and can show such artifacts).....Such does lead me to believe it traced across the pixels at a slower pace than a quick streak....

The jaggies betray the object (at least in uploaded image sampling) is only pixel width.

 

 

I've captured some cosmic ray streaks (esp. in video) and they often leave a different signature...

 

Of course the idea of a non-id'd asteroid or satellite could still fit....Considering the flaring effect possibility.

Note people often only think of flares with Iridiums, but a satellite can flare without a slow ramp/up fade/out as Iridiums do.....

Another thing to consider is it could have been a faint telescopic meteor captured at just pixel resolution and attenuated by the h-alpha filter...
 

Cheers!


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#25 elmiko

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 09:54 PM

That is so amazing! Great effort!




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