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Explore Scientific vs. TeleVue Nagler

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#1 JollyGreen120

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 07:45 AM

I am looking to move from a 1.25" to a 2" for my CPC1100.  I have looked at the TeleVue Nagler series and the Explore Scientific 82 degree series.  I currently own several ES for my 1.25".  Are the ES 82 comparable to the TV Nagler's?  The price is almost double for the Nagler's.  Will the ES get me close to the quality of image in the TV Nagler's? Are there any other eyepieces you would recommend besides these two in getting as close to the performance of the TV?

Thanks for your help with this. 


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#2 earlyriser

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 07:48 AM

This topic has been discussed ad nauseum. Below is a link to a recent thread on this topic, but there are others that you might also find interesting if you search the eyepiece forum.

 

https://www.cloudyni...er-and-es-30mm/

 

Here's another one to check out:

 

https://www.cloudyni...ma#entry8695246

 

Some people like the Masuama in longer focal length scopes:

 

https://www.cloudyni...5-degree-at-f7/


Edited by earlyriser, 18 February 2019 - 07:54 AM.

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#3 Starman47

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 07:55 AM

As the previous post says, this has been discussed at length. And there are strongly held beliefs out there. So, I  suggest that you make the decision yourself. Go to a star party or a club event near you. Ask to look through the eyepieces. You may even ask to borrow the eyepiece to test in your own telescope. Some folks will allow that. Then you do not have to listen to us. lol.gif

 

Just FYI, I am a firm believer in the ES 82 series regardless of what the Nagler evangelist have to say.  wink.gif


Edited by Starman47, 18 February 2019 - 07:58 AM.

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#4 HarryRik9

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 08:07 AM

You asked:Are the ES 82 comparable to the TV Nagler's? The answer is that it depends. My 18mm 82deg ES didnt perform in my SV 110ED very well so I switched to Naglers. But when I bought a Dob the 18 mm ES seemed just fine in that scope. Different scopes different results, different people different opinions. I suggest looking in the classifieds section for Naglers and discovering for yourself what you think. The type 1 Naglers are very good and not as expensive as the new ones.

Edited by HarryRik9, 18 February 2019 - 08:10 AM.

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#5 sg6

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 08:08 AM

Only own the TV plossls but it seems a fair rule that there are no "problems" with TV eyepieces and much the same on ES items.

 

The problem is what makes one better then the other.

If 2 indetical eyepieces were made and one had ES and was 100 degrees, whereas the other had TV on it and was stopped down to 80 degrees. Then what you would probably find is the "TV" was sharp edge to edge, the "ES" likely a little soft or something at the edges.

 

So remembering that they are totall identical which is the better?

Because that is how "better" is oftan decided on.

 

If it is a case of talking yourself into TV performance at ES prices, then it really comes down to the level of performance that you require. Likely very little difference but if a TV were say 5% better then that 5% will likely cost 100% more to achieve. And can you tell or care about the small increment.


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#6 junomike

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 08:10 AM

In an SCT the ES 82's will perform fine.  The value is in the ES however in other OTA's w/faster focal lengths the Naglers will be more desirable.


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#7 JollyGreen120

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 08:22 AM

Thanks all for your advice and experience.  I think I will go with an ES 30 and also borrow a fellow club members TV 31 and then decide if I want to go with more ES (22, 17) or TV eyepieces (24, 18). I should also be able to use them in my CPC800.  


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#8 Araguaia

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 08:40 AM

We have an ES82 5.5mm, an ES 82 30mm, and a Nagler 3.5mm 82 AOFV for a 12" dob.

 

Compring the ES 5.5 with the Nagler 3.5, they are both excellent.  I think the ES has a blacker field, which I find more pleasing.  For views of planetary nebulas or the inner details of M42, really the only difference is the magnification - one is better for some details, the other for others.  

 

All things considered I would say ES is better at that power range.  A negligible difference in performance, if any, but a big difference in price. 

 

OTOH, while the ES 30 is an excellent eyepiece, I can notice little things that might look better in a Nagler 31.  If they do (never looked through one), and if money were no object (but it is), I might prefer the Nagler.


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#9 Stellar1

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 08:59 AM

Hey what’s the difference between an eyepiece and a movie?....

NOTHING! everyone will have their own opinion of each.


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#10 godra

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 09:12 AM

We have an ES82 5.5mm, an ES 82 30mm, and a Nagler 3.5mm 82 AOFV for a 12" dob.

 

Compring the ES 5.5 with the Nagler 3.5, they are both excellent.  I think the ES has a blacker field, which I find more pleasing.  For views of planetary nebulas or the inner details of M42, really the only difference is the magnification - one is better for some details, the other for others.  

 

All things considered I would say ES is better at that power range.  A negligible difference in performance, if any, but a big difference in price. 

 

OTOH, while the ES 30 is an excellent eyepiece, I can notice little things that might look better in a Nagler 31.  If they do (never looked through one), and if money were no object (but it is), I might prefer the Nagler.T

There is no ES82 5.5mm. It is Meade eyepiece but never mind...same factory made them.smile.gif I do have 28mmES68 which I bought couple month ago but just once try it outside.Great performer!



#11 Jeff Struve

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 09:15 AM

I compared the 21mm and 8mm Ethos head on in my 12" f4.6 dob a few years back (Okie Tex Star Party) with the 100° 20mm and 9mm ES... You can't generalize the comparison of 1 or 2 eyepieces over a whole line or brand of eyepieces. 

 

I felt that the ES might have had slightly better contrast, but TV seemed to be much clearer to the edge and a bit more crisp.... overall I would say that ES was about 90%-95% of the TV... so if you feel the 5% - 10% improvement is worth it, go with TV, otherwise ES is also a fine eyepiece and that would be my second choice hands down. 

 

Best bet was as mentioned before... try to try them out for your self.


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#12 Araguaia

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 09:26 AM

Hey what’s the difference between an eyepiece and a movie?....

 

About USD 200.



#13 Araguaia

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 09:28 AM

There is no ES82 5.5mm. It is Meade eyepiece but never mind...same factory made them.smile.gif I do have 28mmES68 which I bought couple month ago but just once try it outside.Great performer!

Sorry, I miscombobulated my AFOVs. grin.gif  

 

It is an ES100 5.5mm.  I used planetary nebulae for comparisons because the size of the field doesn't matter much beyond 82o.  I avoided mention of planets because the seeing makes too much difference at the higher power.


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#14 BarrySimon615

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 10:47 AM

Thanks all for your advice and experience.  I think I will go with an ES 30 and also borrow a fellow club members TV 31 and then decide if I want to go with more ES (22, 17) or TV eyepieces (24, 18). I should also be able to use them in my CPC800.  

I have both series of eyepieces ES 82's, all except the 30 mm (4.7 mm thru the 24 mm).  I also own or have owned all of the TeleVue Type 6 (1.25") and the Type 5's and the Type 4's.  I do not tend to favor one brand over the other, although I do believe that there are specific eyepieces from both TeleVue or ExploreScientific which betters their equivalent in the other brand for the features that are more important to me and when used in my scopes (primarily refractors and primarily f/7 and slower).  Others that have different judging criteria and different scopes may literally see things quite differently.

 

Yes you will pay more for TeleVue and often that is hard to rationalize given that in the cases where it can be argued that the TeleVue eyepiece is better than it's ExploreScientific equivalent, it is not that much better and in fact, for me, some of my ES eyepieces are better for what matters to me than their TV equivalent.

 

TV, at least now, does hold it's value better.  If faced with a financial crisis where one option for raising money would be to eliminate redundancy in my collection of stuff, I would keep the ES eyepieces and sell all of the TeleVue eyepieces simply because they would command higher prices on the used market.

 

FYI - in your quote above, you got the eyepieces reversed - the 22 and 17 are TeleVue Type 4 Naglers, and the 24 and 18 are ES 82 degree field eyepieces.

 

Note - the TV 22 and 17 are among my top favorites.  The ES 24 is also a favorite.  I do like it better than the TV 26 mm Type 5 (now discontinued).  The ES 18 is not a favorite, primarily because of it's short eye relief.

 

Barry Simon


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#15 csrlice12

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 11:03 AM

While premium eyepieces help, its the object(s) you're viewing thats gonna give you that "WOW" factor....and a slow scope like yours is more forgiving of eyepieces then a fast dob.  You won't be disappointed with either.  With goto and tracking, you might find a "lowly" ortho outperforms both.....there's a reason many of us have different types of eyepieces at various focal lengths. 


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#16 turtle86

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 12:00 PM

I agree with the above posts. The ES 82's are an excellent value, and give the Naglers a run for the money.  The Naglers do perform a little better towards the edge, and the difference is slight but noticeable on faster scopes.  I observe with faster scopes, so I use TeleVue eyepieces, but if I still observed with f/10 SCT's, I would likely go with the ES 82's.



#17 punk35

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 12:02 PM

I recently spent a couple hours comparing a 13mm t1 Nagler and an ES 14mm 82*. This was in my 102 f7 refractor. Still no chance to compare them in my C11. My targets were the Moon and M42. Keep in mind the T1-N is much older than the ES 14, and I don’t know how much improvement has been made to the T6-N vrs the old T1. The ES 14 is brand new. 

 

On the crescent Moon the views were virtually identical. I compared the view with my glasses both on and off. It was virtually a wash between the two. Possibly the blacks in the T1 was a little blacker, but more comparisons are needed for me to decide if that is actually the case. If there was a difference it was pretty subtle 

 

On M42 I did notice a difference, and I quickly switched back and forth between the two eyepieces a number of times to be sure I was seeing what I thought I was seeing. I was able to see more nebulosity in a particular place with the T1 Nagler with direct vision, and I had to use averted vision to see the same amount in the ES 14.  The views were still pretty close but on that target the TV Nagler seemed to win the comparison.  

   Really the biggest difference I noticed between the two eyepieces is that the ES was more comfortable to look through. The T1 Nagler is a little touchy about eye placement, and wanted to try and kidney bean a little. This only seemed like a problem if I tried to push my eye in a little to far. The ES gave no such problems, and is quite comfortable to use. 

 

Since this was my first comparison of both my first TV and ES eyepieces, more comparisons are in order to confirm or deny anything I just said lol.  As always, YMMV. 

 

Wade.


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#18 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 12:24 PM

Compring the ES 5.5 with the Nagler 3.5, they are both excellent.  I think the ES has a blacker field, which I find more pleasing.

 

 

The sky is 1 magnitude dimmer in a 3.5 mm eyepiece than in a 5.5 mm eyepiece.  Small differences in blackness are possible but that's a factor of 2.5. One really needs to compare eyepieces of nearly equal focal lengths.

 

Jon


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#19 JollyGreen120

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 04:07 PM

I appreciate all the comments.  One last question - would you use the ES 30 or 24 as your go to EP for beginning your viewing before you start increasing your magnification?

I got a chuckle out of Vostock 1's movie analogy.



#20 InkDark

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 04:19 PM

I appreciate all the comments.  One last question - would you use the ES 30 or 24 as your go to EP for beginning your viewing before you start increasing your magnification?

I got a chuckle out of Vostock 1's movie analogy.

I go from the Telrad to the 24 Pan (68 degrees) in my 10 inch F5 Dob.

 

Depends on your FL and the resulting field of view. Also, higher mag is sometimes even better if you're looking for a small object like the eskimo nebula. I sometimes go from seraching with the Telra to 100 X (12.5mm EP).

 

A friend has the ES 24 82 degree and it is his most used EP in 10 and 13 inch DObs.


Edited by InkDark, 18 February 2019 - 04:29 PM.


#21 BarrySimon615

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 05:11 PM

While premium eyepieces help, its the object(s) you're viewing thats gonna give you that "WOW" factor....and a slow scope like yours is more forgiving of eyepieces then a fast dob.  You won't be disappointed with either.  With goto and tracking, you might find a "lowly" ortho outperforms both.....there's a reason many of us have different types of eyepieces at various focal lengths. 

I only have about 80 to 90 eyepieces...….I guess I gotta get more for my life to be complete!laugh.gif 

 

Barry Simon


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#22 Tank

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 05:12 PM

TV vs ES

depending on which one they both have many different EPs

i favor mainly TV products

however ES have put out some great and spectacular EPs such as the ES 92s



#23 CrazyPanda

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Posted 18 February 2019 - 05:29 PM

I am looking to move from a 1.25" to a 2" for my CPC1100.  I have looked at the TeleVue Nagler series and the Explore Scientific 82 degree series.  I currently own several ES for my 1.25".  Are the ES 82 comparable to the TV Nagler's?  The price is almost double for the Nagler's.  Will the ES get me close to the quality of image in the TV Nagler's? Are there any other eyepieces you would recommend besides these two in getting as close to the performance of the TV?

Thanks for your help with this. 

In your F/10 scope, the difference between the ES82 and Naglers will be exceedingly minor. 

 

TeleVue are designed to provide a nicely corrected field in scopes with fast focal ratios, which is why they're so expensive. The longer the focal ratio, the less advantageous it is to look through Tele Vue glass. 

 

That's not to say they don't offer exceptional contrast and "clarity" regardless of focal ratio, but that kind of quality is much more subtle between one eyepiece line and another. Edge correction in fast focal ratio scopes tends to be the dominant quality that separates one line of eyepieces from another.

 

 

 

I appreciate all the comments.  One last question - would you use the ES 30 or 24 as your go to EP for beginning your viewing before you start increasing your magnification?

I got a chuckle out of Vostock 1's movie analogy.

 

I don't know if I really start with one magnification. It depends on the object I'm looking at. If the first object is a small planetary nebula in my 12 F/5, the first eyepiece I reach for is my 3mm for 508x. If it's M31, then it's the 21mm. If it's M42, it's the 17mm ES92. If it's M13, it's the 8 Ethos. 

 

In your scope, if you wanted a low power, wide angle eyepiece, I would lean towards the 30mm. At F/10 that will give you a brighter 3mm exit pupil, which will play nicer with aggressive line filters down the road, and give you a wider TFOV (0.88 degrees vs 0.69 degrees in the 24mm). This is just about the widest TFOV your scope can support. At 93x magnification, it's also a healthy magnification for many objects. 


Edited by CrazyPanda, 18 February 2019 - 05:37 PM.


#24 Araguaia

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 04:16 AM

I appreciate all the comments.  One last question - would you use the ES 30 or 24 as your go to EP for beginning your viewing before you start increasing your magnification?

 

I'd say the 24 with a 2x barlow.



#25 Jond105

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Posted 19 February 2019 - 04:31 AM

I appreciate all the comments. One last question - would you use the ES 30 or 24 as your go to EP for beginning your viewing before you start increasing your magnification?
I got a chuckle out of Vostock 1's movie analogy.


I start with 24mm. It's not too too heavy to bring balance problems as you move up in magnification. 30mm I haven't used all too much yet, but the few times I have, it's all I used, or ended the night with.


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