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flocking a refractor

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#1 MrYaesu

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 01:57 PM

ok sounds like why do this. they have baffles...

will heres the issue.. and by no meens is this torwards who i got it from... but i say this orion droped ball big time on this scope.. sad really

orions ED80T CF... all 4 baffles were not glued in anyway.. and will as iam sure we all know orion is no help in a glue to use to hold the baffles back in ..

 

i called a carbon fiber compay they say use a epoxy.. ive read some dont have luck with it...

 

sooo why not use flocking ??  i would think it might do more then the baffles would ..

 

thoughts ideas so on ???

 

as you can see in the images not one spec of any glue or something to hold them..

 

 

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#2 tony_spina

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 02:24 PM

Yes you can use only flocking.  My Tele Vue NP101 has no baffles, just flocking


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#3 glend

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 02:43 PM

The normal adhesive for use with carbon fibre is epoxy, but not the cheap stuff you buy at your local hardware store, it has to be structural stuff as used in boat building. The cheap hardware epoxy is ok for fixing things around the house, but it is hydroscopic ( breaks down in the presence of moisture).  You can get good epoxy at any marine/boating supply outlet. It is the sort of epoxy used to bond layers of carbon fibre when they are layed up in molds or extruded as tubes, etc. And the reason some folks don't have luck using epoxy is that the surface has to be roughed up by sanding to allow the epoxy to key to it. And all carbon fibre extruded tubes, or made in molds,  have a release agent on them which prevents gluing onto them unless it is removed down to the epoxy first.

 

More importantly, don't try it. You will likely ruin the scope collimation, and there is a real danger of getting epoxy on other stuff, as working inside a tube is like building a ship in a bottle.  Just let it go.


Edited by glend, 22 March 2019 - 02:49 PM.

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#4 MrYaesu

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 03:55 PM

Yes you can use only flocking.  My Tele Vue NP101 has no baffles, just flocking

i think i will agree with you as the more i look at it.. it looks like the baffles were put in place... then the tube was sprayed with the paint... to me the flocking would do 10 times better job..

 

wondering if you have any tips or tricks as this is much tighter then the 12 inch dob i had to flock. lol

 

not 100% sure yet as i have a call into orion.. ill wait and see what they say... i like to give them a chance as sorry to say but it for sure is a quality control issue for sure...


Edited by MrYaesu, 22 March 2019 - 04:03 PM.


#5 barbie

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 04:00 PM

I agree 100% on the flocking.  I've already done this to scopes and it made a world of difference!!


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#6 MrYaesu

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 04:20 PM

$17 bucks shipped for the flocking from ProtoStar... it looks to be front runner..

 

unless someone out there has a 8inch by 12 inch piece they might like to sell.. as protostar has a min of 24 by15 inchs. and if i remember and did math right... its 3.25 inch diameter times Pi. = 10.5 inchs roughly.. circumfernce

 

 

wow brain from protostar returned my call.. i must say he is one stand up guy... i would tell anyone and everyone to get there vanes and flocking from him.. wow what a company should be right there... ty to brain if you read this..

 

ok i think iam goin to try jb weld.. i only need pencil tip amounts about 6 spots around each baffle.

 

only other issue i see is alignment of focuser to glass.. this has no good way to do alignment on it.. so ill have to figure that out next.


Edited by MrYaesu, 22 March 2019 - 05:37 PM.


#7 tony_spina

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 06:46 PM

i think i will agree with you as the more i look at it.. it looks like the baffles were put in place... then the tube was sprayed with the paint... to me the flocking would do 10 times better job..

 

wondering if you have any tips or tricks as this is much tighter then the 12 inch dob i had to flock. lol

 

not 100% sure yet as i have a call into orion.. ill wait and see what they say... i like to give them a chance as sorry to say but it for sure is a quality control issue for sure...

You can look at this thread I created last year on flocking.   Not the same scope but the suggestions may help


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#8 MrYaesu

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 11:14 PM

not sure if a link was to be in your post.. i did a look around.. iam unable to find it..

 

wondering do you do imaging with your flocked refractor ?

 

You can look at this thread I created last year on flocking.   Not the same scope but the suggestions may help



#9 tony_spina

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Posted 22 March 2019 - 11:32 PM

not sure if a link was to be in your post.. i did a look around.. iam unable to find it..

 

wondering do you do imaging with your flocked refractor ?

https://www.cloudyni...locking-a-st80/

 

 

I image with the NP101. 

 

The ST80 is my car scope  ready wherever I go


Edited by tony_spina, 22 March 2019 - 11:34 PM.

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#10 rayden68

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 12:55 AM

Use black fiberglass screen that you would use on a screen door. soaks up reflections and you don't have to glue it in. use enough to get several overlapping wraps and then roll it up and let it expand inside the tube. used it on a 60mm F15 carton refractor project a couple years ago and it is still in place. I posted about it in cloudy nights a ways back.


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#11 MrYaesu

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 03:53 AM

like that idea.. ill think it out.. not a bad idea at all for sure..

ty

Use black fiberglass screen that you would use on a screen door. soaks up reflections and you don't have to glue it in. use enough to get several overlapping wraps and then roll it up and let it expand inside the tube. used it on a 60mm F15 carton refractor project a couple years ago and it is still in place. I posted about it in cloudy nights a ways back.



#12 MrYaesu

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 11:30 AM

prelim test ... WOW.. crispppppp WOW.....

builds down the road i count the holes in the brick. there Crisp sharp...

 

prelim lazer alignment.. if its a mil off its all ...

this is lazer in focuser . home made postcard center hole circle for lens. was messured 30 times before cuttin it.. works on my wrkhorse orion 80ed apo 680fl ...  its dang near spot on .... this is with the 3 set screws loose fit.

 

 

i will have to say... orion droped the ball on this one.. there is much better ways to make a CF scope... this isnt for sure one of them..

to relie on 3 - 1mm setscrews to hold all the weight.. not a good idea at all orion ..

 

will keep updates



#13 MrYaesu

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 11:41 AM

1st photo is racked all in

2nd is racked all out...

 

again the len is just settin in the tube with the 3 set screws just in to hold it a little from moving..

 

 

 

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#14 MrYaesu

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 11:51 AM

1st is about 150ft

2nd is block and a half. 500ft at least...

thru my livingroom window.

lens just more or less settin in ota..

 

canon 1100d unmodded   iso-200  1/320s party C i wont say the whole word lol ... spotty sunshine...

view screen focusing... cant see it will.. but if i had laptop on it i could get it cleaner iam sure..

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Edited by MrYaesu, 23 March 2019 - 12:00 PM.


#15 MrYaesu

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 02:25 PM

the reflection is becuse iam shoutin thru a dual pane window...

focused thru the cam screen .. hard to see it... but i see no fringing tho...

i think its a badder film the darker colored film.. on a homemade cell for 6 inch dob. just hangin offdue shield..

 

iam not able to do the twist focuser no more. as i used them 3 screws and som eplastic spacing to align focuser with glass..

but its fine i didnt have it on the orion 80ed apo 680. so its not a big deal..

 

and the last is all baffles back in place. alignment seems good... now for the star test.. i wont ask for CS. as it will we all know..

 

thoughts comments so on .. feel free to toss them out there..

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#16 MrYaesu

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 02:51 PM

now for the star test ..

 

last alignment and how i did get alignment..

2nd image you can see the plastic spacing.. for alignment.. i have lost turning the focuser. but as i said in last post. never had it on the orion 80edapo 680. so no lose to me..

 

again all comments welcome

 

and yes i spelt cole mator like the cartoon cars..

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Edited by MrYaesu, 23 March 2019 - 02:52 PM.


#17 MrYaesu

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 10:13 PM

very dirty focusing with cam lcd. i have hard time seein and didnt zoom in.. out a open window.. no clue what i was looking at lol was just gettin a dirty test.

 

no its no pin point. again dirty focus cam lcd..

with that said...

what say you on the roundness of the stars tho.. i see no fringing or anything.. they look pretty good. no ??

waiting for weather to break to get a good test in .. 30 is to cold lol

canon 450d forget iso secs was 1.

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#18 gnowellsct

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 01:09 AM

Yes you can use only flocking.  My Tele Vue NP101 has no baffles, just flocking

Well they have a system, last I checked it was sandpaper painted flat black, and it seems to work well.  But when I use the word "flocking" I think of soft fuzzy stuff that used to be sold by protostar and similar.  I don't think Televue innards are soft and fuzzy.

 

On the other stuff I'm having difficulty following why we are evaluating an optic by shooting through a window.  I realize that in many parts of the world, including mine, it is not particularly warm out.  But there's not much to be learned other than that one is shooting through a window.  

 

I hope the flocking project works though.  

 

I am getting the impression that baffles are one of the places where companies cut costs when they want to sell a low-priced "apo."  Baffles and focusers, I guess the tube itself, the quality of the paint, these factors can combine to undermine the experience.   GN


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#19 MrYaesu

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 09:46 AM

iam not sure myself and i took the photos lol ...

i figured if something would be out of wack. it would show up no? please correct me if iam off on that .... then i learn not to waste my time or net space lol ... figured it would show fringing ? or something ?

 

the orig reason was ... the baffles come lose all 4 ... so i was goin to flock it.. but i spoke to bryan at protostar.. and what a stand up guy he is.. he didnt push his product on me .. he said try fixin the baffles 1st.. that to me is a stand up company ...

 

ill have to wait and see when its warmer out.. i wont hope for warm weather soon as when we hope it for warm it will then snow lol .

 

sandpaper painted black ??? i dont think i would use that.. the sand can come off .. mmmm to me not a good idea..

i have used protostars flocking before on a bucket.. and i must say wow ... it stuck i dont think it will ever come off lol ... good stuff ..

 

Well they have a system, last I checked it was sandpaper painted flat black, and it seems to work well.  But when I use the word "flocking" I think of soft fuzzy stuff that used to be sold by protostar and similar.  I don't think Televue innards are soft and fuzzy.

 

On the other stuff I'm having difficulty following why we are evaluating an optic by shooting through a window.  I realize that in many parts of the world, including mine, it is not particularly warm out.  But there's not much to be learned other than that one is shooting through a window.  

 

I hope the flocking project works though.  

 

I am getting the impression that baffles are one of the places where companies cut costs when they want to sell a low-priced "apo."  Baffles and focusers, I guess the tube itself, the quality of the paint, these factors can combine to undermine the experience.   GN



#20 gnowellsct

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 09:53 AM

Another way to flock is to get a Kendrick flocked dew shield.  Cut it to the diameter of the scope.  In a small scope the pressure of the two ends together will keep it bending out.  In a big scope you need to use glue.   In this picture the flocking project was also used as a support for an internal dew heater.

 

Most of us on Yahoo C14 who did this did not experience hugely improved viewing.  But having the dew heater inside saves a lot of power.  --GN

 

dew heater good installation - cn size.jpg

 

 


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#21 gnowellsct

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 09:55 AM

I have detailed instructions on how to do that written up but I'm not sure how much of it would be relevant to an 80mm scope.  --Greg N


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#22 MrYaesu

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 10:31 PM

will for now flocking is on the back burner...

i put the baffles back with jb weld.. there rock soild.. i used so very little no drips and no showing of it at all..

sanded the areas where the baffle rings would be goin.. with 60 grit. worked great. its all back togther..

went out tonite with a 40mm and a 16mm.. pin point stars.. i dont think my 80edapo does as good.. but that is not a triplet...

 

once i get a dovetail and a 90mm ring.. i think ill get some imaging in on it.. it might become my main imaging scope..

the workhorse O80ED APO might get sold.. or i might sell this one.. if the offer is rite..

 

dont know yet what iam goin to do ..

 

but ty to all for the help. ideas and thoughts..

and ty to bryan from protostar.. stand up guy for sure..



#23 Bomber Bob

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 09:01 AM

Well they have a system, last I checked it was sandpaper painted flat black, and it seems to work well.

 

For my Jaegers 4" F5 RFT, I painted sheets of sandpaper flat black, then glued these to the inside (after I'd already painted the metal flat black).  IMO, this material absorbs more stray light that the fabrics I've used in other scopes.  But...  I left the Jaegers in my car, and after a few days of The Swamp's heat & humidity, the sand paper separated from the wall, and collapsed -- left a boatload of tiny black crystals all over the lens, focuser, etc.  Once I got it all cleaned out, I went back to my preferred stuff - 1mm thick flat black foam-rubber padding.  The 8" x 11" sheets are ultra-light, so it takes very little glue hold & keep them attached.

 

For my 6" Tinsley Cass, I used actual loose sand -- almost as fine as talcum powder.  Again, I painted the interior flat black, then sprayed the glue in small patches, dusted it with the sand, and let it set up for a while.  Once dry, I sprayed the whole interior with a thin coat of the liquid glue.  Let that dry & set.  Then applied a coat of flat black.  So far, it's stayed in place, and that rough texture is even better than sandpaper.


Edited by Bomber Bob, 25 March 2019 - 09:02 AM.

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#24 MrYaesu

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 01:36 PM

i can see doin it that way. becuse of the area your in ... the flocking glue they use.. iam sure in heat like that probley drop like the headliners in old chevys .. lol

 

got me thinking. wonder how the texture paint would work.. mmmm i have a old 4 inch newt. tho its in purfect shape.. i might try that on it..

 

Well they have a system, last I checked it was sandpaper painted flat black, and it seems to work well.

 

For my Jaegers 4" F5 RFT, I painted sheets of sandpaper flat black, then glued these to the inside (after I'd already painted the metal flat black).  IMO, this material absorbs more stray light that the fabrics I've used in other scopes.  But...  I left the Jaegers in my car, and after a few days of The Swamp's heat & humidity, the sand paper separated from the wall, and collapsed -- left a boatload of tiny black crystals all over the lens, focuser, etc.  Once I got it all cleaned out, I went back to my preferred stuff - 1mm thick flat black foam-rubber padding.  The 8" x 11" sheets are ultra-light, so it takes very little glue hold & keep them attached.

 

For my 6" Tinsley Cass, I used actual loose sand -- almost as fine as talcum powder.  Again, I painted the interior flat black, then sprayed the glue in small patches, dusted it with the sand, and let it set up for a while.  Once dry, I sprayed the whole interior with a thin coat of the liquid glue.  Let that dry & set.  Then applied a coat of flat black.  So far, it's stayed in place, and that rough texture is even better than sandpaper.



#25 gnowellsct

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 02:00 PM

Well they have a system, last I checked it was sandpaper painted flat black, and it seems to work well.

 

For my Jaegers 4" F5 RFT, I painted sheets of sandpaper flat black, then glued these to the inside (after I'd already painted the metal flat black).  IMO, this material absorbs more stray light that the fabrics I've used in other scopes.  But...  I left the Jaegers in my car, and after a few days of The Swamp's heat & humidity, the sand paper separated from the wall, and collapsed -- left a boatload of tiny black crystals all over the lens, focuser, etc.  Once I got it all cleaned out, I went back to my preferred stuff - 1mm thick flat black foam-rubber padding.  The 8" x 11" sheets are ultra-light, so it takes very little glue hold & keep them attached.

 

For my 6" Tinsley Cass, I used actual loose sand -- almost as fine as talcum powder.  Again, I painted the interior flat black, then sprayed the glue in small patches, dusted it with the sand, and let it set up for a while.  Once dry, I sprayed the whole interior with a thin coat of the liquid glue.  Let that dry & set.  Then applied a coat of flat black.  So far, it's stayed in place, and that rough texture is even better than sandpaper.

Well in fact I have heard second hand that a TV refractor stored in a garage that got very hot one summer peeled.  They must have a pretty robust system though as complaints are rare, and scopes get left in hot cars, and we do not have abundant cases of flocking peeling.   It is of course the case that we have no recorded instance of CNC baffles coming off in the heat of a locked car or garage.   We do have a guy in another thread whose glued plastic baffles came loose, if I read his posts right. That was in an ST80, which is about 20 pentax XW units more expensive than a TV apo.  

 

Greg N




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