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Full Frame Mono Camera Coming Soon - QHY600 (IMX455)

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#251 Jon Rista

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 04:40 PM

Cooling seems not as strong as I am used from ccd cameras. The vent blows a steady stream of air out of the case, and I was able to get to about - 33°C below ambient.
Download speed in bin 1x1 over USB2 was around 2 seconds. Seems that the sheer size of the frames needs some upgraded hardware on my side though

It may be that ~35C below ambient might be all you need. Most of these modern Sony CMOS cameras have very low dark current, and the higher grade sensors like this one also have pretty low DSNU as well. I wouldn't expect to see -60C cooling with a CMOS sensor (and in fact there sometimes seems to be concerns about cooling them too deeply due to the fragility of the sensor structure, since they now etch both side of the sensor with BSI designs and the overall structures are quite complex these days). 

 

That said, the venting does not really seem sufficient... One of the things I like about the CMOS cameras I currently use is they are very WELL vented, so even the slightest breeze at night helps move all that heat away from the camera and keep the heatsink cool. Might be some worth-while feedback for QHY if you find you cannot get the camera as cool as you would expect when actually using it on a scope at night. 


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#252 lukepower_2

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 01:06 AM

Please measurements: length and diameter. How much does it weigh?

Its 19.5cm long, 9cm in diameter, and weights 930 grams


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#253 lukepower_2

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 01:09 AM

It may be that ~35C below ambient might be all you need. Most of these modern Sony CMOS cameras have very low dark current, and the higher grade sensors like this one also have pretty low DSNU as well. I wouldn't expect to see -60C cooling with a CMOS sensor (and in fact there sometimes seems to be concerns about cooling them too deeply due to the fragility of the sensor structure, since they now etch both side of the sensor with BSI designs and the overall structures are quite complex these days). 

 

That said, the venting does not really seem sufficient... One of the things I like about the CMOS cameras I currently use is they are very WELL vented, so even the slightest breeze at night helps move all that heat away from the camera and keep the heatsink cool. Might be some worth-while feedback for QHY if you find you cannot get the camera as cool as you would expect when actually using it on a scope at night. 

Actually there are vents on two sides, the airflow comes from the back and runs through the case until the chip basically, and then is diverted into two flows outwards. There is not only but two air exits located in that area. Now, from first trials it seems that it could be enough to keep the sensor at a reasonabily constant cool temperature (like -10°C or the likes), but only time will tell. There seems to be so little noise that a strong cooling is maybe not needed at all


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#254 Konihlav

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 02:04 AM

My information on dark current of IMX455 (it's a hear-say) is that it's "much" higher than with my IMX094 that is also reasonably higher than what IMX071 has... therefore it might be nice if the cooling works better with IMX455 than IMX094 (QHY367C or whatever is the ASI094 version in QHY terms)...

 

but, anyway, as long as we have a reasonably good temperature control (that -10 is really -10 moreover throughout the whole chip) then dark subtraction works and calibrates just fine. There is no problem with it unless the dark current is insanely high like on some other scientific CMOSes... that it actually overwhelms the readout noise...


Edited by Konihlav, 04 September 2019 - 02:06 AM.


#255 pyrasanth

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 02:13 AM

Actually, the QHY version of the 16200 is not bad at all - I have one and really like it. I don't like the drivers, but that is a QHY thing - most of their cameras suffer from bad drivers. 

 

Which brings me back to this thread - the challenge with cameras coming out of QHY and ZWO is that it is very difficult to put them in the same class as FLI/SBIG/QSI or even ATIK/SX/Moravian. Which then begs the question - would I buy something that is not tested by the general public or just spend my money on a better version of the 16200? And seriously, if I was paying $9K (which is what the QHY is being rumored at), wouldn't I just buy a used FLI16803? Yes, it has high read noise, needs long exposures - but I know what to expect and will be consistent. Just my $0.02.

 

CS! 

I agree that some camera drivers are well, not very stable, but I have found an exception. The drivers supplied with my Moravian G3 16200 MK2 have been superb. Not one hiccup in nearly 9 months of solid use.

 

It is such a shame that Moravian appears to be not as popular as some of the other makes. They really are superbly engineered products. I've not downloaded the latest QHY drivers but I've found them to be problematic at best. I just don't understand the rationale of the general public having to modify DLL & ini files to get a camera that costs thousands to work..



#256 Coconuts

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 06:33 AM

According to Tolga, the price for the "Photographic" version will be $5K when it launches in a couple of months.  This version can be seen at the top of their webpage, and it looks to be ~ 40 mm shorter than the first batch of "Professional" models.  No dark current info yet ("TBD" in spec table), but their text does say "extremely low dark current".

 

https://www.qhyccd.c...=94&id=55&cut=1

 

All the best,

 

Kevin



#257 Konihlav

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 06:42 AM

their text on website is 99% times copy&pasted from some other camera model... same errors/mistakes/typos on multiple pages :D



#258 Konihlav

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 06:43 AM

I'd say their quality of webpages reflects (strongly correlates) with their quality of software (drivers). Just my observation.



#259 lukepower_2

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 09:29 AM

ALright, I went on and mounted the Filter wheel today. I mounted my Baader filter set (LRGB and Ha7, OIII and SII), and connected the filter wheel to the camera body. First surprise is that the connection nose on the filter wheel adds about 5mm to the stated thickness of 21mm, so the overall backfocus usage of the camera with the filter wheel is about 43,5mm (minus 1.5mm for the filters. 17.5mm for the camera, 21mm for the filter wheel, and 5mm for that nosepiece).

I made the electrical connections, installed the ASCOM driver, and off we went. At first it seems working perfectly, that is until I noticed that the filter wheel moves, but doesn't always stop at the correct position.

I tried several different approaches, but it seems that the driver or firmware is confusing the current position in quite a few cases. I contacted QHY and am curios to see what the solution could be... Will keep you updated.

 

Lukas



#260 Dean J.

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 09:48 AM

Based on the specs this certainly looks like it will be an interesting camera.  I am looking forward to seeing some results when some make it out into the wild.

 

Unfortunately the detector size makes it usable on only one of my several imaging scopes.  Thus, I can't justify the cost of the camera and the filters.

 

I was wondering if anyone know whether there are scaled down versions, either APS-C or 4/3", of this detector in the pipeline.  It would be nice to have a scaled down mono version of this camera for those with scaled down budgets.


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#261 AnakChan

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 04:30 AM

Oh my with the filterwheel it does look huge!

 

Found on Twitter.

IMG_9941.JPG


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#262 ManuelJ

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 09:25 AM

Oh my with the filterwheel it does look huge!

 

Now they only have to make them work wink.gif


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#263 AIP

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 09:41 AM

welcome tilt at the meridian flip!


Edited by AIP, 05 September 2019 - 09:42 AM.


#264 rms40

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 12:40 PM

Anak, I see you are using the thumb screws to hold the filter wheel on. Can this also be threaded together? Is the camera adapter 48mm? Is there a threaded fitting on the EFW?

 

Randall



#265 lukepower_2

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 12:46 PM

The filter wheel has a threaded fitting, yes. However, the QHY600 has not, which I already complained with QHY and they told me they are working on it. There would be 6 threaded holes around the M54 hole that one could possibly use, but QHY would need to machine a matching front plate for the camera.

As for the filter wheel per se it looks well-machined. I don't really like the way the filters are held in place (basically with three screws and some soft washers). Also, my filter wheel seems to have a fault as it is turning most of the time to a wrong slot. After some remote assistance from QHY they told me that they are gonna send me a replacement filter wheel free of charge, and that I can send back the defective one once the new one is confirmed to work, which I find pretty neat.


Edited by lukepower_2, 05 September 2019 - 01:26 PM.


#266 rms40

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 02:30 PM

Thanks, Luke. I like to have all of my imaging train threaded together. That EFW is huge compared to my 1.25" and 36mm ones.

 

I agree that the current method of attaching filters in the EFWs with screws and washers is not that great. I chipped the edges of some filters in an EFW that had the filter holes too tight. This seems like something that could be made better. And, also much easier to insert or change filters. It takes me over half an hour of careful work to load a 7 position wheel. Just using steel screws so that a magnetic screw driver would hold them would be an improvement. Mine are all aluminum screws. They are hard to position in the small holes right next to the filters.

 

I have had really good performance with both QHY and ZWO EFWs. The replacement should work fine. My three EFWs worked great out of the box. Something to watch out for is that the filters are flush in the holes and the screws hold them in place and that the screws aren't sitting up too high. I did have one filter that sat a bit too high and the screws hit the EFW body when I was learning how these work.

 

Randall



#267 ezwheels

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 03:10 PM

I am a fan of the bolt-on FW's and OAG's. Way more secure, with threaded set-ups unthreading slightly is an issue with mounting and un-mounting the rig as well. Bolt on systems have no issues with getting the sensor to line up with the prism and allows me to control where the cables are routed more consistently. 



#268 Xplode

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 04:15 PM

Cooling seems not as strong as I am used from ccd cameras. The vent blows a steady stream of air out of the case, and I was able to get to about - 33°C below ambient.
Download speed in bin 1x1 over USB2 was around 2 seconds. Seems that the sheer size of the frames needs some upgraded hardware on my side though

Do you mean USB3? USB2 only supports around 30MB/s so a 118MB file would take around 4s

It would be cool if you could upload a batch of darks and bias frames so we could both try to stack them and check the quality


Edited by Xplode, 05 September 2019 - 04:16 PM.


#269 lukepower_2

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 01:14 AM

Do you mean USB3? USB2 only supports around 30MB/s so a 118MB file would take around 4s

It would be cool if you could upload a batch of darks and bias frames so we could both try to stack them and check the quality

4 seconds sounds about right. Again, once I get my new computer I will test everything with USB 3.

As for darks and bias, I will later on connect the stack and take some, and upload them for you guys to check them out. Any particular request?



#270 AIP

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 02:14 AM

4 seconds sounds about right. Again, once I get my new computer I will test everything with USB 3.

As for darks and bias, I will later on connect the stack and take some, and upload them for you guys to check them out. Any particular request?

 

Darks: 20x120s, 20x300s and 20x600s at -20ºC and unity gain would be great smile.gif

Bias: 100 bias for example? 

Flats: 1 flat per chanel at 25.000 ADUS aprox. to see the FPN?

 

I think that with this many people will decide to buy the camera. It's what almost everyone is waiting to see for months

 

Thanks in advance!

 

----

 

EDIT: uff! 160 fits are 18GB!! shocked.gif  I don't know if it will be possible lol.gif


Edited by AIP, 06 September 2019 - 02:19 AM.


#271 lukepower_2

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 02:27 AM

Darks: 20x120s, 20x300s and 20x600s at -20ºC and unity gain would be great smile.gif

Bias: 100 bias for example? 

Flats: 1 flat per chanel at 25.000 ADUS aprox. to see the FPN?

 

----

 

EDIT: uff! 160 fits are 18GB!! shocked.gif  I don't know if it will be possible lol.gif

Ok will start taking them. Google Drive will upload them at this location as they are taken, and yes, it will be a load of stuff: https://drive.google...fXK7cvsecrgHGiK

I will teave the default setting for DSO from QHY active:

Screenshot_4.jpg

 

As for the temperature, I will stick to -10°C as I am unable to get lower in the office right now. This would equal to a delta of about 33°C.

 

Data will be taken with MaximDL 5 using the latest ASCOM driver from QHY. Let's see how stable it will be smile.gif

 

EDIT: FIrst of all I forgot to cover the camera (too used to have a shutter) so I had to restart. Also, I found out that I am easily able to get the chip to -15°C, so a delta of about 38°C from ambient, which is pretty neat. I will do the acquisition at -15°C at this point.


Edited by lukepower_2, 06 September 2019 - 02:41 AM.

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#272 AIP

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 03:31 AM

Oh man, you are very kind :)
thank you!

Álvaro.



#273 cabfl

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 07:31 AM

Darks: 20x120s, 20x300s and 20x600s at -20ºC and unity gain would be great smile.gif

Bias: 100 bias for example? 

Flats: 1 flat per chanel at 25.000 ADUS aprox. to see the FPN?

 

I think that with this many people will decide to buy the camera. It's what almost everyone is waiting to see for months

 

Thanks in advance!

 

----

 

EDIT: uff! 160 fits are 18GB!! shocked.gif  I don't know if it will be possible lol.gif

This sensor starts from unity gain in gain 0 (like the IMX178).
It could be more interesting at optimal gain, approximately 56: low noise (1.68e) and high dynamic range (DR 13.65).

 

1a22a44da59e6f394ccecd34d6cb5260o.png1c07c7d69ad5b5cc5a0ee3ae66f8188eo.png


Edited by cabfl, 06 September 2019 - 07:32 AM.


#274 cabfl

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 07:35 AM

QHY in Facebook:

 

 

First batch of QHY600 is sending to our early bird users. During this period we will keep on optimize the perfomance and update the new SDK version. We will release a new version of dark current optimized some days later. The current measured dark current is 0.007e/pixel/sec.@-20C. We think the optimized sdk will be better than this.



#275 Konihlav

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 08:56 AM

cabfl: yes, I have read that too.

That means, for a 5min exposure some 2.1e- of charge. That is more than the readout noise at low noise (1.68e) settings (gain whatever, ~56 57)...

This confirms what I said before - a good cooling is essential in this camera and knowing the dark signal is helpful in order to decide how long subs to make (speaking about narrow band imaging) if that dark signal doesn't overwhelm the nicely low readout noise...

 

BTW my ASI094 accumulates some 0.6e- of dark signal in 5 minutes, but since it's an OSC camera and I shoot broadband, never narrowband, I do not even care if in my unity gain I have readout noise of 3 or 5 electrons or anything between 1 to 9 e- :-) for broadband it's irrelevant, the readout noise.




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