Jump to content

  •  

CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.

Photo

Full Frame Mono Camera Coming Soon - QHY600 (IMX455)

  • Please log in to reply
384 replies to this topic

#51 ccs_hello

ccs_hello

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 10314
  • Joined: 03 Jul 2004

Posted 31 March 2019 - 09:21 PM

Please bear with me...

 

At least, some of full frame sized image sensors were mainly designed for DSLRs.  Volumn production of these sensors as well as the DSLR cameras will drive the price down.

Actually, if people can live with last years' models, one can find these cameras are not much a sticker price shock any more.

This is not intended for astroimager vs DSLR debate but just to say the interim solution is there, just some compromises.

 

Now back to regular scheduled programming...



#52 dhaval

dhaval

    Vendor

  • *****
  • Vendors
  • Posts: 1737
  • Joined: 21 Jul 2008
  • Loc: Round Rock, TX

Posted 31 March 2019 - 09:28 PM

Wonder if anyone is actually testing these cameras? I would love to see what people are achieving with them. Wonder if we can see calibration images or even lights?

 

CS!



#53 chadrian84

chadrian84

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 338
  • Joined: 03 Jun 2018
  • Loc: Wisconsin

Posted 31 March 2019 - 09:52 PM

It was only a couple weeks ago the IMX411 sensor saw first light from QHY.  They posted a picture of what might be daytime clouds on Facebook.  I'm not sure the IMX461 or IMX455 have seen first light.  



#54 Jon Rista

Jon Rista

    ISS

  • *****
  • Posts: 23722
  • Joined: 10 Jan 2014
  • Loc: Colorado

Posted 31 March 2019 - 10:31 PM

It was only a couple weeks ago the IMX411 sensor saw first light from QHY.  They posted a picture of what might be daytime clouds on Facebook.  I'm not sure the IMX461 or IMX455 have seen first light.  

It even seemed to be a question whether the latter two sensors were even generally available from Sony yet. They were not at the beginning of the year.


  • RedLionNJ likes this

#55 vdb

vdb

    Apollo

  • -----
  • Posts: 1467
  • Joined: 08 Dec 2009

Posted 01 April 2019 - 12:41 AM

Hmmm this batch of new sensors seems a bit pricy for what they bring for amateurs, probably the old CCD's will be getting cheaper to find them a new place in the camera lineup, and even though they are claimed old and are deemed useless for NB I see beautiful pictures taken with the 16200, 11000 and 16803 ... also in NB ... 

Competition is good, I would love to see a cheaper 16200 from a good manufacture, count me in ...

 

/Yves



#56 cfosterstars

cfosterstars

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2577
  • Joined: 05 Sep 2014
  • Loc: Austin, Texas

Posted 01 April 2019 - 01:04 PM

Hmmm this batch of new sensors seems a bit pricy for what they bring for amateurs, probably the old CCD's will be getting cheaper to find them a new place in the camera lineup, and even though they are claimed old and are deemed useless for NB I see beautiful pictures taken with the 16200, 11000 and 16803 ... also in NB ... 

Competition is good, I would love to see a cheaper 16200 from a good manufacture, count me in ...

 

/Yves

I dont think that this is all that likely. The CCD chips and process is mature. They are mostly cost reduced from a manufacturing point of view and there is likely very little cost pressure can be supplied by the AP users. We are nitch market at best and have little influence with manufacturers of the chips. I suspect that it would be more likely that they would be end of life and production stopped before any cost reduction. AP companies only piggly back on much larger markets and the CCDs are loosing steam in the market in general. 

 

If these new CMOS chips do come out and reach price points that make sense for market acceptance, I see the CCDs slowly dying and not really dropping in price - or just staying as they are and dedicated CCD lovers continuing to support the smaller and smaller demand.  



#57 jtrezzo

jtrezzo

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 918
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2017
  • Loc: Tampa Bay, FL

Posted 01 April 2019 - 01:20 PM

I don't know about those sensor cost rumors, but the IMX411 has been available in cameras (eg. the Phase One IQ4, but also industrial cameras) since last fall, with prices starting at 50000$. These are not inexpensive sensors.

 

For what it's worth, the QHY cameras are listed in their product grid... under the scientific cameras section (see https://www.qhyccd.c...catid=138&id=49 ). That's the target demographic, observatories.

 

Edit: just noticed the QHY600 appeared on their site as well: https://www.qhyccd.c...&catid=94&id=55 .

I think more like 20K just for the sensor is more accurate. QHY461 is estimated at $25-30K cost, I'm sure QHY411 closer to $50K. These are scientific cameras, not really a consideration for amateurs just looking at taking pretty images.


  • psandelle likes this

#58 chadrian84

chadrian84

    Ranger 4

  • *****
  • topic starter
  • Posts: 338
  • Joined: 03 Jun 2018
  • Loc: Wisconsin

Posted 01 April 2019 - 01:57 PM

Multiple websites are reporting the Fuji GFX100 is going to cost 10k.  That camera uses the IMX461 100mp sensor.


  • tkottary likes this

#59 motab

motab

    Vostok 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 110
  • Joined: 01 Aug 2018
  • Loc: Copenhagen, Denmark

Posted 01 April 2019 - 06:01 PM

I heard the same estimates as jtrezzo.

#60 jtrezzo

jtrezzo

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 918
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2017
  • Loc: Tampa Bay, FL

Posted 01 April 2019 - 06:43 PM

The $25-30K figure is from someone at QHY. They did also say that it depends on the cost of the sensor. I'd imagine they'd have some "inside" info as to actual cost if they are already building a camera for it, but who knows. I can't imagine they would mark the camera architecture up that much if the sensor alone was only $10K. 



#61 Francois

Francois

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 111
  • Joined: 09 Jun 2007
  • Loc: Montreal

Posted 02 April 2019 - 06:01 AM

To bring this back to the QHY600, at 10000$ it would be in excellent position to compete with the FLI ML11002, ML16070, ML29050, and ML43140. Same format, while beating any of those interline sensors at every metric if you can tolerate the rolling shutter.


  • psandelle likes this

#62 rms40

rms40

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 646
  • Joined: 15 Apr 2016
  • Loc: NW of Harper, TX

Posted 02 April 2019 - 08:01 AM

Francois, what is the issue with a rolling shutter for astrophotography? I thought only moving targets would get smeared by this type of shutter. I have also seen issues reported with global shutters and pattern noise. Is there a good explanation of the issues somewhere for AP?

 

Thanks, Randall



#63 Francois

Francois

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 111
  • Joined: 09 Jun 2007
  • Loc: Montreal

Posted 02 April 2019 - 08:19 AM

Francois, what is the issue with a rolling shutter for astrophotography? I thought only moving targets would get smeared by this type of shutter. I have also seen issues reported with global shutters and pattern noise. Is there a good explanation of the issues somewhere for AP?

 

Thanks, Randall

My understanding is that those interline sensors are popular for space debris and satellite tracking. (Though, the sensors themselves are especially marketed for display panel inspection)

 

Edit: Perhaps to elaborate a bit more, the reason one might want a global shutter is when an instantaneous start and end time are required. For instance, rapid cadence photometry needs this to calibrate out zero-point fluctuations, orbital tracking to easily compute the lines of sight at beginning and end of exposure (though rolling shutters are perfectly deterministic), etc. For time-averaged anything, it's not really required. Hell, for time-averaged photometry, a constant livetime across the frame is not even required. As for interlines, their niche is when a global shutter is required as well as a lack of out-of-time events you would get from frame-tranfer CCDs. The price is that the quantum efficiency is halved.


Edited by Francois, 02 April 2019 - 08:57 AM.


#64 psandelle

psandelle

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2875
  • Joined: 18 Jun 2008
  • Loc: Los Angeles

Posted 02 April 2019 - 08:38 AM

Anywhere around $8,000 would be a good price (looking at the higher end cameras for the last few years). If it were $7,000, I'd get one in a second. I have a QHY128C and a QHY367M (the mono-modded one) and I wouldn't mind trading out the QHY367M for this camera. It would FINALLY get me a full-frame sensor that gives me a reasonable image scale of 1.62 arcsec/pix, which is hard to do with wide-field scopes. The others are above my pay-grade for casual using, but I could see getting one if I had an observatory and could use my rig more than once a month. I'm just glad some full-frame mono CMOS sensors are starting to come out. It's a good sign for our hobby, as a while back with CCD progress slowing, and CMOSes coming to the fore, there was some doubt this might ever happen (go reread some of those threads).

 

Paul


  • jtrezzo likes this

#65 wargrafix

wargrafix

    Skylab

  • -----
  • Posts: 4065
  • Joined: 10 Apr 2013
  • Loc: Trinidad

Posted 02 April 2019 - 10:03 AM

My issue is not about there being a limited catalog.

 

The issue is that short term profit versus long term market growth can stifle the market. I know they have to buy the chip and they need to make something off of it. My concern is the budget tier offers are not terribly good. Not horrible, just meh.

 

Look at the video card market where price ballooning went full crazy.



#66 Francois

Francois

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 111
  • Joined: 09 Jun 2007
  • Loc: Montreal

Posted 02 April 2019 - 11:08 AM

Look at the video card market where price ballooning went full crazy.

 

There is no parallel here. The video card market went crazy due to cryptocurrency speculation. CMOS imaging sensors are not involved in any financial bubbles. The price of existing sensors is not going to vary much, until they are discontinued.


  • psandelle, austin.grant, Jon Rista and 1 other like this

#67 cloudswimmer

cloudswimmer

    Vostok 1

  • -----
  • Posts: 127
  • Joined: 09 Nov 2018

Posted 02 April 2019 - 06:27 PM

 I wouldn't mind trading out the QHY367M for this camera.

 

Paul

Paul was your 367m modded by a third party or did you get it from QHY that way?



#68 psandelle

psandelle

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2875
  • Joined: 18 Jun 2008
  • Loc: Los Angeles

Posted 02 April 2019 - 07:01 PM

Paul was your 367m modded by a third party or did you get it from QHY that way?

QHY was experimenting with a third party doing it. I think QHY will still do it for you.

 

Paul



#69 ccs_hello

ccs_hello

    Voyager 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 10314
  • Joined: 03 Jul 2004

Posted 02 April 2019 - 09:28 PM

Don't (I guess no body would) risk ruining a brand new super expensive OSC image sensor to

break the hermetically sealed chamber, take out the microlens layer, remove AR coating, and scrub off the Bayer color filter...

 

With that kind of money, I doubt anyone would offer any form of warranty once that surgery is conducted.



#70 psandelle

psandelle

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2875
  • Joined: 18 Jun 2008
  • Loc: Los Angeles

Posted 02 April 2019 - 10:01 PM

By the way, the QHY367M works great, which is why I’m itching to see what the QHY600’s price is.

 

Paul


Edited by psandelle, 02 April 2019 - 10:01 PM.

  • dcornelis likes this

#71 jtrezzo

jtrezzo

    Viking 1

  • *****
  • Posts: 918
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2017
  • Loc: Tampa Bay, FL

Posted 03 April 2019 - 10:16 AM

Don't (I guess no body would) risk ruining a brand new super expensive OSC image sensor to

break the hermetically sealed chamber, take out the microlens layer, remove AR coating, and scrub off the Bayer color filter...

 

With that kind of money, I doubt anyone would offer any form of warranty once that surgery is conducted.

They can be ordered through QHY by request, they have it professionally done, I think through ChipMod. I'd assume there's still some warranty. 


  • psandelle likes this

#72 vdb

vdb

    Apollo

  • -----
  • Posts: 1467
  • Joined: 08 Dec 2009

Posted 03 April 2019 - 11:16 AM

On the pricing, seems ZWO is gone be pretty aggressive ... read the comments from them on their FB page ...

 

/Yves



#73 vdb

vdb

    Apollo

  • -----
  • Posts: 1467
  • Joined: 08 Dec 2009

Posted 03 April 2019 - 11:20 AM

I dont think that this is all that likely. The CCD chips and process is mature. They are mostly cost reduced from a manufacturing point of view and there is likely very little cost pressure can be supplied by the AP users. We are nitch market at best and have little influence with manufacturers of the chips. I suspect that it would be more likely that they would be end of life and production stopped before any cost reduction. AP companies only piggly back on much larger markets and the CCDs are loosing steam in the market in general. 

 

If these new CMOS chips do come out and reach price points that make sense for market acceptance, I see the CCDs slowly dying and not really dropping in price - or just staying as they are and dedicated CCD lovers continuing to support the smaller and smaller demand.  

Until now there was no real competition for large format CCD's hence the high price ... they where priced to demand, lets see what that demand will be, if ZWO is really going to be aggressive and others need to follow, it can go quick ... I'll postpone any purchases for the next 6 month's ... (Such a shame my QHY 367C has developed an issue, hopefully it lasts another 6 month's)

 

/Yves


  • psandelle likes this

#74 psandelle

psandelle

    Mercury-Atlas

  • *****
  • Posts: 2875
  • Joined: 18 Jun 2008
  • Loc: Los Angeles

Posted 03 April 2019 - 11:52 AM

Until now there was no real competition for large format CCD's hence the high price ... they where priced to demand, lets see what that demand will be, if ZWO is really going to be aggressive and others need to follow, it can go quick ... I'll postpone any purchases for the next 6 month's ... (Such a shame my QHY 367C has developed an issue, hopefully it lasts another 6 month's)

 

/Yves

What's with your 367?

 

Paul



#75 vdb

vdb

    Apollo

  • -----
  • Posts: 1467
  • Joined: 08 Dec 2009

Posted 03 April 2019 - 12:00 PM

What's with your 367?

 

Paul

It doesn't download an image if the cooling is NOT on, if it's on at -15 or more it downloads on the condition the power to the TEC is high enough ... Tried everything, USB cable's download speed power supply different computers where the camera used to work ... no solution ...

 

/Yves




CNers have asked about a donation box for Cloudy Nights over the years, so here you go. Donation is not required by any means, so please enjoy your stay.


Recent Topics






Cloudy Nights LLC
Cloudy Nights Sponsor: Astronomics