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Full Frame Mono Camera Coming Soon - QHY600 (IMX455)

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#151 Jon Rista

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 03:08 PM

76ae3887219825a91af5167f60e440fbo.jpg

 

QHY268 - APS-C - 26mpx 6252 x 4176 - color/mono - 16bits - 3,76um - 1.0-2.7e

Ok, cool. I stand corrected! :D



#152 ezwheels

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 03:09 PM

Wow. QHY! APS-C mono? This looks pretty cool. I might be able to get my existing 36mm filters to work with such a camera. waytogo.gif Options and decisions to make this year!


Edited by ezwheels, 12 April 2019 - 03:11 PM.


#153 premk19

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 03:11 PM

The "color and monochrome" is for the whole bunch in general. The APS-C is available in color only I believe.

#154 ezwheels

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 03:19 PM

Yeah FB page asked directly about a mono APS-C and they said no:

 

qhyccd.jpeg



#155 Francois

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 03:20 PM

In case Sony doesn't release anything in that size, Fairchild Semiconductor has released a new BSI monochrome rolling shutter 4/3 sensor with largish (4.6u) pixels and 86dB of dynamic range which I translate into 14.5 stops. They claim enhanced and extended QE to NIR and it's definitely intended for scientific applications so it might not be super cheap but who knows. There are a lot more folks out there with 1.25" and 36mm filters, wheels and smaller corrected fields than full-frame so there's every incentive to release something based on it.

The extended QE in NIR necessitates deep depletion, which means $$$.

 

edit: plus, that's not Fairchild Semi (a subsidiary of ONSemi) but Fairchild Imaging (a subsidiary of BAE). Being a defense contractor expect all sorts of export restrictions.


Edited by Francois, 12 April 2019 - 03:22 PM.


#156 Francois

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 03:32 PM

It's APS-C according to https://www.sony-sem...42LLA_Flyer.pdf

 

That sensor is already used in industry. So: it's got 2/3rds the well of the IMX183 and higher noise (due to the GS).

 

See: https://thinklucid.c...s-31-mp-imx342/

 

Edit: Brain fart, was thinking of another model. Anyhow, if you're wondering "what if I used this sensor", these industrial sites are full of info.


Edited by Francois, 12 April 2019 - 03:37 PM.


#157 rms40

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 05:03 PM

In 4/3 mono, the ASI1600MM works well as do any of the 8300 based CCD cameras. I really thought we would see an APS-C mono this year. I bought 36mm narrowband for this. I think 1.25" or 31mm will work fine for most scopes at 4/3 (maybe not at f4 and below). Eventually, I will go with full-frame or larger mono. I just want the cmos imaging market to mature before I plunk down that kind of money for the camera and filters. I still am happy with full-frame OSC. But, I am amazed at how well 5nm HA and my 3nm OIII work at my dark site. Sii works ok. Not a lot of targets that show much at that spectrum. Now, if I can just get better at combining LRGB+all or partial narrowband.

 

Randall



#158 dghent

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Posted 12 April 2019 - 10:05 PM

That sensor is already used in industry. So: it's got 2/3rds the well of the IMX183 and higher noise (due to the GS).

 

See: https://thinklucid.c...s-31-mp-imx342/

 

Edit: Brain fart, was thinking of another model. Anyhow, if you're wondering "what if I used this sensor", these industrial sites are full of info.

I asked Dr Q about the IMX342. He said it's FSI rather than BSI, so I guess that means that he'd rather productize a BSI APS-C mono sensor rather than a FSI one. Understandable.



#159 Francois

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 01:25 AM

I asked Dr Q about the IMX342. He said it's FSI rather than BSI, so I guess that means that he'd rather productize a BSI APS-C mono sensor rather than a FSI one. Understandable.

Yeah, the industrial sensor line doesn't care as much about well depth, QE, or dark noise, since it's all about video or short exposure inspection under controlled illumination. Global shutters and low readout noise, however are important.

 

As for a BSI APS mono sensor, it ain't coming. The IMX571 is a color product for DSLRs. See the Fujifilm X-T3 for instance. The industrial side doesn't care about bi/fi nearly as much.


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#160 chadrian84

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 01:40 AM

So the global shutter is not the reason the IMX342 is M.I.A. (though that may still be a major issue). Rather, ZWO/QHY want the benefits of BSI. Correct me if I’m wrong (I just started reading about this), but I think the main benefits of BSI are higher QE, ability to use smaller pixels, and ability to do more processing at the pixel site.

If that’s the case, the IMX342 might still be a great astro chip (albeit not the best QE, and uncertainty about the effects of a global shutter).

Edited by chadrian84, 13 April 2019 - 02:02 AM.


#161 giorgio_ne

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 05:28 AM

All those shiny new massive sensors will accentuate the poor quality of the optics we currently own. Prepare yourself to spend a lot more for a decent flat field, large optical circle and a focuser robust enough to sustain those weighty filter wheels and cameras...


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#162 rms40

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 08:23 AM

Giorgio, That is very true. I have a large fully corrected field on my FSQ-106. I have not had great results with reducers and flatteners on my other scopes. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a huge sensor if you just have to crop out the center. In fact, I don't bother with my ASI094MC full-frame on my 5" APO. I just use it for smaller targets with ASI1600 and still crop. I am a big fan of "astrograph" type scopes that don't need additional correctors and exact spacing for AP. The large sensors will probably make these more popular as well.

 

Randall


Edited by rms40, 13 April 2019 - 08:30 AM.

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#163 Francois

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 10:13 AM

So the global shutter is not the reason the IMX342 is M.I.A. (though that may still be a major issue). Rather, ZWO/QHY want the benefits of BSI. Correct me if I’m wrong (I just started reading about this), but I think the main benefits of BSI are higher QE, ability to use smaller pixels, and ability to do more processing at the pixel site.

If that’s the case, the IMX342 might still be a great astro chip (albeit not the best QE, and uncertainty about the effects of a global shutter).

Mostly higher QE. The rest is all due to the higher QE. (the higher QE itself is due to the active photosite being directly exposed as opposed to under a layer of circuitry and passivated sillicon).

 

The global shutter adds a whole other layer of dark current, as explained elsewhere in the thread by Jon (if memory serves?).

 

edit: although there used to be another reason: subpixel QE variations for the X-ray folks. But we mostly jumped from frame transer CCDs straight to either bonded crystals or huge MOSFETs.


Edited by Francois, 13 April 2019 - 10:15 AM.


#164 RedLionNJ

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 10:39 AM

I'm glad to see lucam's confirmation on the ZWO pricing for their 6200 cam. I had a couple conversations with the ZWO crew at NEIAC and I wasn't sure if I was mis-interpreting due to the language barrier (difference between just the chip and the entire camera). The gist of it that I got was that Sony hadn't settled on a price yet, as that would depend on the perceived market at the release-to-production date for the chip. That market is obviously the amateur astronomy market, but rather the larger prosumer DSLR market (I'm not sure how much Sony sees in the way of industrial applications for the imx455).

 

The advice ZWO gave me was "wait and see - maybe $4k-$5k, maybe six months".


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#165 lucutes

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 02:56 PM

I predict $4,888



#166 rockstarbill

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 04:44 PM

I predict $4,888

I predict $8675.309


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#167 austin.grant

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 08:40 AM

I predict $8675.309

Nice! But it think it will actually be $3624.36

 band2.sml.gif


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#168 rockstarbill

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 08:42 AM

Nice! But it think it will actually be $3624.36

 band2.sml.gif

Sir Mix A Lot is proud! ;) 



#169 austin.grant

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Posted 14 April 2019 - 08:48 AM

Sir Mix A Lot is proud! wink.gif

Oh no... I'd forgotten about that one, lol. I was going for AC/DC "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap" to stick with the phone number theme you established. 


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#170 jtrezzo

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 05:23 PM

I'm gonna go high bet here - $28,133,080.04 lol.gif 

 

That may actually be accurate for the medium format ones ;)



#171 Gene3

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 05:33 PM

I predict $8675.309

So in this case is it Dr. Qui I got your number, instead of Jenny I got your number (ah those college days)?

What next - the safety dance?


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#172 Scott Mitchell

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 10:13 PM

Alright, I'll play too. $1! 

 

I'm the next contestant on...



#173 austin.grant

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:24 PM

I'm gonna go high bet here - $28,133,080.04 lol.gif

That may actually be accurate for the medium format ones ;)


Who? Mike Jones!!!

#174 natwin

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:40 PM

A quick word about Sony pricing. While I have no insider information about the expected price of the new IMX455 sensor, I do know that Sony introduces new cameras and sensors at only a slight increase over the introductory price of their predecessors. They then keep the previous iteration on the market at a reduced price. This squares with the rumor that the QHY367C will drop in price with the introduction of the QHY600. Also, the IMX455 is expected to be used in the upcoming Nikon D8xx, which will likely be introduced in the $4K range. So building an astrocam using the IMX455 for $4-5K should be possible, as ZWO suggests with their upcoming ASI6200.

 

Additionally, I've read that there may be more than one version of QHY's new full frame astrocam in the works, one with a sensor above the IMX455. Indeed, Sony will also be releasing the IMX551, which is an upgraded version of the IMX455, including faster read outs and HDR capabilities. Not sure if it will be for public consumption or if Sony keeps it for its own cameras. But if made available to QHY, could this be the justification for an $8K camera?

 

Of course it's all speculation at this point. And as many have said, take pricing and release dates with a grain of salt.


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#175 Coconuts

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 06:05 AM

These new, large Sony BSI CMOS sensors are awesome!  I wasn't able to get to NEAF, but I did reach out to QHY and ZWO, mostly on the IMX461(102 MP) sensor. 

 

ZWO: yes, we are going to have a new full frame MONO camera

IMX 455
16bit ADC
62 mega pixel
about 3.76um pixel size
probably will be available around 6 months ; )

 

QHY:The price of QHY461M camera is usd 30,000. Now it is available for pre-order. The camera can be delivered in about 30-45 days.

 

Me: QHY461 is listed in your catalog as a Scientific Camera.  I thought that you were developing a consumer astrocamera based on the Sony IMX461, which would be less.

 

QHY: I asked my boss, there is only one version of qhy461 at present.
There are two versions of the QHY600 camera, one for scientific research and one for astronomy enthusiasts.

The qhy600 astronomy enthusiast edition costs about $8,000.

 

On a separate note, in Fuji material on their upcoming GFX 100S, the sensor is described as having "phase detection autofocus pixels throughout the entire sensor". 

https://www.fujirumo...mera-with-ibis/

That probably lines up with the IMX461 PDAF shown as coming later in the roadmap of this thread's original post.  I don't think that feature would be desirable in an astro-imaging sensor.

 

But for sure, it is the medium format camera market that led to this remarkable new generation of sensors being developed, and that market is also key to driving down prices.  We get to ride on that wave's coat tails.


Edited by Coconuts, 18 April 2019 - 06:17 AM.

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