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Am I nuts to think of Mewlon 180 when I already have a 4” Tak APO (and a bigger SCT)?

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#51 Axunator

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Posted 15 April 2019 - 09:32 PM

Collimating the C9.25 is quite a bit easier than a Mewlon but I don't think this is a relevant factor for the decision as op's scope choice seems to be driven by other factors.


Yeah, not a parameter in this equation. Seems to me the biggest problems people have had with the collimation of their Mewlons have been when the scopes have been really out of whack, for a reason or another.

Not at all afraid of minor tweaks, and chances are that’s all that is needed if buying new, which is the only choice up here anyway. If more extensive adjustments are needed, then well, if others have done it, it means it’s doable. Hard, maybe, but doable.
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#52 Brent

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 11:51 AM

I'm a little late to the conversation, I suppose, but I'll chime in anyway.  I have had for years a 4" NP-101, but I purchased a Mewlon 180C when they were first announced.  I had always wanted to try a Mewlon, but the 210 was larger than what I wanted.  It will definitely give you brighter views of DSOs, and far more engaging views of our Moon.  Planets?  Where I live, atmospheric turbulence is always the biggest factor in viewing planets, and I don't think I've had the Mewlon out on a night that can really show what it has to offer.  It has been difficult on the nights that I have had both scopes out to choose between the planetary views.  But as I say, seeing is always the limiting factor.  (Sometimes, my best views are through a 60mm Tak.)

 

In short, the Mewlon will not be redundant of your refractor.

 

Cheers,

Brent


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#53 Axunator

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 04:41 PM

Thanks Brent! waytogo.gif



#54 Kunama

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 01:28 AM

Aki, I don't think I could call you 'Nuts' for your plan to buy a Mewlon 180.....

 

 

Hulluus on hauskaa jos on hyvin suunniteltu............ cool.gif

 

 

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#55 Axunator

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 09:04 AM

A Tak trinoscope!!! shocked.gif waytogo.gif Don’t set up near airports or military bases unless you want trouble lol.gif

 

IMG_0631.JPG

 


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#56 gfstallin

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 12:12 AM

Aki, I don't think I could call you 'Nuts' for your plan to buy a Mewlon 180.....

 

 

Hulluus on hauskaa jos on hyvin suunniteltu............ cool.gif

Is this anyone else's idea what a heaven or afterlife reward would look like, or is this setting the bar too high? lol.gif

 

Then I'd walk around to what I can only imagine would be premium diagonals and great binoviewers to spot the incompatible, plastic .965 eyepieces on the accessory tray. They would be next to a note that read "George, don't bother looking around for proper eyepieces. To celebrate your long-awaited arrival, we decided to stock plastic, 4 mm Ramsden .965 eyepieces from '900 Power 60mm Super Space Refractors' only. We also only have 2" diagonals. I hear they have this same, dare I say, decadent, triple Takahashi setup, along with an AP Mak Cass in the other place. Of course, they only stock Tele Vues up there. Enjoy!"

 

 

"Yep, this is more like where I expected I'd be," I say to myself.

 

 

George  


Edited by gfstallin, 18 April 2019 - 12:13 AM.

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#57 luxo II

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 12:57 AM

Axunator, what are you really trying to do ? Are you actually a visual observer, or an imaging type ?

 

IMHO there is a decision to be made - if you live in a big city and want to observe, the only realistic targets are moon, planets, the usual bright clusters, and making measures of double/multiple and variable stars.

 

For this, yes, a long focal length scope is ideal - and you already have a C9.25. The Mewlon will not beat it on these because aperture rules, assuming the optics of the C9.25 are good (which might not be valid). The Tak simply isn't in the running for this, its aperture is not enough to challenge the Mewlon or the C9.25 and its focal length is not sufficient either for seriously high powers (by this I mean 400X - 700X). Visually, with my Santel 100X is merely for locating targets, and the fun begins at 200X (average seeing) and in excellent seeing 700X is useful. 

 

If you have the opportunity to visit a decent dark sky site to observe DSO's, likewise aperture is king and the C9.25 at its lowest power will simply slay both the Mewlon and the Tak.

 

The exception to this is imaging where the small Tak is a better match to most cameras for DSOs, whereas the C9.25 is the better match for planetary imaging.  Personally I would not use the Mewlon due to the ugly diffraction spikes produced on Jupiter, Mars, Saturn and bright stars. 


Edited by luxo II, 18 April 2019 - 01:01 AM.

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#58 luxo II

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 01:05 AM

 To celebrate your long-awaited arrival, we decided to stock plastic, 4 mm Ramsden .965 eyepieces 

Now now, don't knock the Ramsden - if you have a scope like mine they actually are OK for planetary targets, though a ball eyepiece would be better...


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#59 Axunator

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 03:02 AM

Axunator, what are you really trying to do ? Are you actually a visual observer, or an imaging type ?

 

IMHO there is a decision to be made - if you live in a big city and want to observe, the only realistic targets are moon, planets, the usual bright clusters, and making measures of double/multiple and variable stars.

 

For this, yes, a long focal length scope is ideal - and you already have a C9.25. The Mewlon will not beat it on these because aperture rules, assuming the optics of the C9.25 are good (which might not be valid). The Tak simply isn't in the running for this, its aperture is not enough to challenge the Mewlon or the C9.25 and its focal length is not sufficient either for seriously high powers (by this I mean 400X - 700X). Visually, with my Santel 100X is merely for locating targets, and the fun begins at 200X (average seeing) and in excellent seeing 700X is useful. 

 

If you have the opportunity to visit a decent dark sky site to observe DSO's, likewise aperture is king and the C9.25 at its lowest power will simply slay both the Mewlon and the Tak.

 

The exception to this is imaging where the small Tak is a better match to most cameras for DSOs, whereas the C9.25 is the better match for planetary imaging.  Personally I would not use the Mewlon due to the ugly diffraction spikes produced on Jupiter, Mars, Saturn and bright stars. 

100% visual.

 

I had hoped that I'd been clear enough on my intentions and rationale on this on the early posts of this thread, but I also understand that you are trying to be help me out here to make my decision, so here goes again:

 

- At home (urban, heavy light pollution, no private backyard or garage to store equipment, but peaceful backyard for all the residents of the apartment complex where I can temporarily set up and observe) - lunar, planets (when they again head up north), double stars

- For DSOs I have to pack up and drive to a dark site. Because life intervenes (kid, work), I get myself there far more seldom than I'd like, but most of you know that's just the way life is for a middle-aged working parent.

 

For DSOs I've got my bases covered for the time being: C9.25 and 4" Tak on AZ-EQ6 - bigger scope to reach deeper, Tak for wider fields (up to 3.6 degrees of bliss; C9.25 won't slay it at that...). Very nice, still portable combo that serves me well. M180 doesn't need to compete for its place in this setup.

 

Since I currently have too little time for serious observing at a remote site, I like to get most out of my shorter, more compromised sessions at home. Moon and doubles may not stir the imagination like distant galaxies and swirly nebulae, but they quench the thirst when other objects are not available, and if you truly love to do something, you have no choice but to do the best you can within the circumstances you live in.

 

Now, the 4" Tak is quite a superb performer and in terms of sharpness, withstands pretty much all the magnification arctic skies can deliver. But as I wrote earlier, I'd really like to have a bit larger exit pupils for high magnifications. M180 can deliver those.   And as I wrote, I'm quite confident it's just enough small and light and - very importantly - with less demanding mounting requirements, that I, personally, would actually use it as a backyard scope. C9.25 is not - I know, I live with one...

 

And as for the diffraction spikes, I've had Newtonians, and I can live with them (with spikes that is - not with Newts, too large for my current habitat). I don't love the spikes on planets, but if the image quality is otherwise good, they are not a deal breaker for me.


Edited by Axunator, 18 April 2019 - 03:08 AM.


#60 luxo II

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 04:41 AM

Ha. You're going through exactly the same dilemma I went through some years ago. You have to make a few decisions as to your priorities. I've already spelled out the possible options above.

Ultimately aperture rules. Always.

The only decision is whether you want to observe DSO's (ie you have a decent dark site) or lunar & planetary (city dweller).

A friend of mine has two nice dobs 13" and 17" and an Intes 715D. As a city dweller he is a keen lunar & planetary observer simply because he can plonk his Intes M715D out and observe from home many nights each month. He loves sketching DSOs but - like me - the times he can get out to deep skies amount to maybe 5 per year - if he's lucky - and the dobs are frankly rotting slowly in his garage.

For much the same reason I decided to forget big reflectors and foussed on a lunar & planetary scope suitable for the city. The biggest I can safely handle.

Edited by luxo II, 18 April 2019 - 05:12 AM.

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#61 gnowellsct

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 06:46 AM

Greg, I believe you are on the right track saying that wood as a material doesn’t have any magical properties that couldn’t be achieved with other materials. However, it does not mean that
1) wood as a material would not have very good vibration dampening characteristics, and
2) those cheap, round steel tube tripods would not ring like a bell once excited with a suitable resonant frequency.
 

Berlebach is excellent. No dispute. And their "thing" is wood.

But the aluminum mounts I cited are also outstanding.

There are a lot of cheap cost cutting tripods. But even in stainless you have good ones. The Meade Giant Field tripod is a case in point. It may be the only great thing Meade has ever done. Good tripod lies in good design of the chosen materials.

On a point raised elsewhere: I beg to differ from any view that vibration pads make a mount rock solid. Their presence indicates it is not.


Edited by gnowellsct, 18 April 2019 - 11:06 AM.

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#62 Axunator

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 08:10 AM

On a point raised elsewhere: I beg to differ from any view that vibration pads make a mount rock solid. Their presence indicates it is not.

Well that's true - "rock solid" and "vibration pads" probably shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence, except to dispute any causal relationship crazy.gif

 

However, in my humble personal opinion, if one has to undermount (there are indeed sometimes valid reasons to do so, boiling down to a choice between 'to observe' or 'not to observe at all', given all the circumstances*), they may make a difference between an unusable and a usable setup by significantly reducing vibrations. I want to state this also because every now and then there pops up a thread on CN discussing them, with skepticism about whether they can make any difference at all (probably by people who haven't ever even tried them). They can help and they do. They are not snake oil stuff. The magnitude of their efficacy of course depends on the setup and the underlying surface.

 

I hope it's clear by now that I don't promote them as a substitute to proper mounting, whenever the latter is possible. But when I have to travel ultra-lightly (small APO on VAMO Traveler and Berlebach Report), I use them shamelessly, and have yet to experience the wrath of gods for my mortal sin grin.gif

 

*) logistic or financial


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#63 gnowellsct

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 11:12 AM

Well that's true - "rock solid" and "vibration pads" probably shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence, except to dispute any causal relationship crazy.gif

 

However, in my humble personal opinion, if one has to undermount (there are indeed sometimes valid reasons to do so, boiling down to a choice between 'to observe' or 'not to observe at all', given all the circumstances*), they may make a difference between an unusable and a usable setup by significantly reducing vibrations. I want to state this also because every now and then there pops up a thread on CN discussing them, with skepticism about whether they can make any difference at all (probably by people who haven't ever even tried them). They can help and they do. They are not snake oil stuff. The magnitude of their efficacy of course depends on the setup and the underlying surface.

 

I hope it's clear by now that I don't promote them as a substitute to proper mounting, whenever the latter is possible. But when I have to travel ultra-lightly (small APO on VAMO Traveler and Berlebach Report), I use them shamelessly, and have yet to experience the wrath of gods for my mortal sin grin.gif

 

*) logistic or financial

Well OK.  I find under mounted systems difficult to use.  For one thing it's hard to focus.  For another thing if there is no drive at work you have jitters induced by focusing and jitters induced by moving the scope to keep up with apparent sky movement.    I thought we were talking Mewlon 180.  I would rather use a well mounted 3 or 4 inch apo than a poorly mounted Mewlon.  Opiniions will vary.  GN



#64 dr.who

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 11:45 AM

A 4” refractor like the FC and a Mewlon 180 or better a 210 on an AZ-EQ6 will make visual observing a real joy. The flexibility and power of that combination of systems is amazing and you will possibly weep with joy because of how good it is. The 210 will be about the same as your 9.25 and the 180 will be the equivalent of a 8” SCT. The Mewlon punches above its weight class by a fair amount. One part because of the longer focal length giving you more “magnification” on objects and the other part because of the mirror quality so there is less light loss.

I have owned the EdgeHD 8” and 11” scopes. I have observed through a few EdgeHD 9.25. They are great scopes for the price. A few years ago I wanted the best reflector optics I could afford so I bought the Mewlon 210.

It blew the EdgeHD 8” and 9.25” so far out of the water they landed in Oklahoma! And I promptly sold the 8” and 11” and bought a Mewlon 250. The Mewlon is fantastic on planets, small DSO, and going deeper into a region of a larger DSO that it actually did make me weep a bit. My most used setup is my TSA-120 and Mewlon 210. Details are spectacular and the views are crisp, bright, and clear. For example Jupiter was my least favorite planet until I used the 210 on it. The clearly and cleanly GRS was visible and the subtle shades of color were startlingly good as opposed to the muddy mushiness I was used to. And my SCT’s collimation was fine. Jupiter went from being my least favorite planet to bump Mars down one to become my 3rd, just behind Saturn and Uranus. The only downside is the diffraction spikes from the vanes but that doesn’t bother me at all.

I would guess with a high confidence level that if you get the 210 you sell your 9.25. If you get the 180 the confidence level goes down but not by so much it makes it improbable. Takahashi only makes 40 Mewlon 210’s per year. A likely similar amount of 180’s and likely less 250’s. This is in comparison to the much much number of 8” and 9.25” SCT’s Celestron makes. As you know from your FC-100, Tak is all about quality. So if you want the best quality you can get, get the Mewlon.
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#65 Axunator

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 11:35 PM

Convincing write-up Dr. Who, thanks for posting waytogo.gif After that, I'd be nuts not to get a Mewlon lol.gif



#66 Cpk133

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Posted 18 April 2019 - 11:35 PM

A 4” refractor like the FC and a Mewlon 180 or better a 210 on an AZ-EQ6 will make visual observing a real joy. The flexibility and power of that combination of systems is amazing and you will possibly weep with joy because of how good it is. The 210 will be about the same as your 9.25 and the 180 will be the equivalent of a 8” SCT. The Mewlon punches above its weight class by a fair amount. One part because of the longer focal length giving you more “magnification” on objects and the other part because of the mirror quality so there is less light loss.

I have owned the EdgeHD 8” and 11” scopes. I have observed through a few EdgeHD 9.25. They are great scopes for the price. A few years ago I wanted the best reflector optics I could afford so I bought the Mewlon 210.

It blew the EdgeHD 8” and 9.25” so far out of the water they landed in Oklahoma! And I promptly sold the 8” and 11” and bought a Mewlon 250. The Mewlon is fantastic on planets, small DSO, and going deeper into a region of a larger DSO that it actually did make me weep a bit. My most used setup is my TSA-120 and Mewlon 210. Details are spectacular and the views are crisp, bright, and clear. For example Jupiter was my least favorite planet until I used the 210 on it. The clearly and cleanly GRS was visible and the subtle shades of color were startlingly good as opposed to the muddy mushiness I was used to. And my SCT’s collimation was fine. Jupiter went from being my least favorite planet to bump Mars down one to become my 3rd, just behind Saturn and Uranus. The only downside is the diffraction spikes from the vanes but that doesn’t bother me at all.

I would guess with a high confidence level that if you get the 210 you sell your 9.25. If you get the 180 the confidence level goes down but not by so much it makes it improbable. Takahashi only makes 40 Mewlon 210’s per year. A likely similar amount of 180’s and likely less 250’s. This is in comparison to the much much number of 8” and 9.25” SCT’s Celestron makes. As you know from your FC-100, Tak is all about quality. So if you want the best quality you can get, get the Mewlon.

Weeping with joy is pretty serious.  With Jupiter culminating at twenty something degrees, I'm not sure if I'd derive that kind of pleasure where I observe.  I've never seen a Mewlon outside of NEAF.  Really want to have a look through one.  


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#67 dr.who

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 12:32 AM

It is especially so for me. I am a ex rugby player. We are not known for our high EQ or emotive nature’s. Some suspect us of being emotionally disabled. wink.gif Seriously though it has happened to me three times. And I have logged a good number of observing hours.

Seeing M57 for the first time ever with averted vision from my heavy LP back yard in my Explore Scientific FCD1 102mm APO then twice with the Mewlon. Truly a game changing scope. NGC 457 is particularly moving in it. It is my favorite open cluster. It looks like a dragonfly to me though others see an owl. I also really enjoy NGC 7789 in the Mewlon. It really looks like a rose.
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#68 greenstars3

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 02:15 AM

I have the 180c Mewlon on an AVX mount, the setup is light and can be broken  down and set up quickly. The views through it are stellar. I will be selling my 11" cat as my 15" Obsession is much better and so is the Mewlon. Get the Mewlon in whatever size you like and smile everytime you use it

 

Robert


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#69 NHRob

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 08:11 AM

Hmm ...  makes me want to sell my TV101 and get a Mewlon180.

My HD145 gives me great low power views.


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#70 Phil Cowell

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 08:42 AM

Thumbs up on rugby, grew up in Plymouth UK. We have a higher pain threshold to but that might be from nerve damage.

My 210 arrives next month. 

It is especially so for me. I am a ex rugby player. We are not known for our high EQ or emotive nature’s. Some suspect us of being emotionally disabled. wink.gif Seriously though it has happened to me three times. And I have logged a good number of observing hours.

Seeing M57 for the first time ever with averted vision from my heavy LP back yard in my Explore Scientific FCD1 102mm APO then twice with the Mewlon. Truly a game changing scope. NGC 457 is particularly moving in it. It is my favorite open cluster. It looks like a dragonfly to me though others see an owl. I also really enjoy NGC 7789 in the Mewlon. It really looks like a rose.



#71 Tyson M

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 10:54 AM

Check out this post #6 with his 180 mewlon and 15" dob, with the Tak being sharper and basically as bright. https://www.cloudyni...-shot-04132019/

 

Mewlon's are deadly lunar scopes, as I can confirm as well.


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#72 dr.who

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 02:49 PM

Thumbs up on rugby, grew up in Plymouth UK. We have a higher pain threshold to but that might be from nerve damage.
My 210 arrives next month.


Cheers mate. I am told I have a high pain tolerance too. But I am now suffering the problems from cumulative injuries from when I played. We didn’t have all the extra health and safety regulations they have now.

NHRob, don’t sell the 101! It is a great companion to the Mewlon. Seriously. It is. I have one too and the combination of the 101 and 210 works really well.
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#73 dr.who

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 02:50 PM

Check out this post #6 with his 180 mewlon and 15" dob, with the Tak being sharper and basically as bright. https://www.cloudyni...-shot-04132019/
 
Mewlon's are deadly lunar scopes, as I can confirm as well.


Aye Mark. The bloody thing is the dogs bollocks when it comes to the moon! It is simply stunning.

#74 NHRob

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 06:27 PM

Cheers mate. I am told I have a high pain tolerance too. But I am now suffering the problems from cumulative injuries from when I played. We didn’t have all the extra health and safety regulations they have now.

NHRob, don’t sell the 101! It is a great companion to the Mewlon. Seriously. It is. I have one too and the combination of the 101 and 210 works really well.

But what do I do with the HD145??

I would hate to sell it but .....



#75 Phil Cowell

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Posted 19 April 2019 - 07:22 PM

But what do I do with the HD145??

I would hate to sell it but .....

Let me know if you do.




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