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Jupiter Oval BA

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#1 jhbanister

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 09:47 PM

My visual observing goal for this year’s apparition of Jupiter is to observe Oval BA. From recent photos it looks to trail the Great Red Spot by about 90 degrees.  Is this correct, and does this distance remain fairly constant?

 

Also, I have used the Sky & Telescope page (https://www.skyandte...great-red-spot/) to track the GRS.  Is there anything similar for BA?  Thanks.



#2 Redbetter

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 12:28 AM

It doesn't remain constant.  Each of the bands/belts drift slowly relative to the others over weeks and months.  However, this relative movement is slow enough to use the GRS as a reference point.  Once you know where Oval BA and other features are you can track them and watch them evolve throughout an apparition.  In this same southern zone I can track the white ovals in decent seeing.   



#3 Magnetic Field

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 01:36 PM

My visual observing goal for this year’s apparition of Jupiter is to observe Oval BA. From recent photos it looks to trail the Great Red Spot by about 90 degrees.  Is this correct, and does this distance remain fairly constant?

 

Also, I have used the Sky & Telescope page (https://www.skyandte...great-red-spot/) to track the GRS.  Is there anything similar for BA?  Thanks.

Nothing personal but I hate posts with abbreviations.

 

I had to google it what "Oval BA" could mean:

 

https://science.nasa...006/02mar_redjr

 

Oval BA is the smaller/younger brother of the Great Red Spot on Jupiter.

 

NASA** says:

 

"The official name of this storm is "Oval BA," but "Red Jr." might be better. It's about half the size of the famous Great Red Spot and almost exactly the same color."

 

 

** I have to stick to my guns: National Aeronautics and Space Administration



#4 Redbetter

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 02:04 PM

Nothing personal but I hate posts with abbreviations.

It isn't an abbreviation.  "Oval BA" is the most common name for this long term feature.  BA is an alpha descriptor for storms in the south temperate belt (STB) that dates back to their original designations as AB, CD, EF in 1939.  Over the years they have merged, including with other later white ovals and gained new designations, Oval BA being the largest result of the mergers and resulting nomenclature updates.   

 

This is reminiscent of the period after Harry S. Truman's middle initial.  The S doesn't stand in for anything so the period is superfluous--counterproductive actually since it lengthens the name.  It is an initial, but there is no middle name since it references two grandfathers with different S names.   My mother's middle name is of the same form for her grandmothers.  But practice is to put periods after middle initials...so there it is, doing nothing but make the reader think the initial stands for something when it doesn't.


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#5 jhbanister

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 04:30 PM

Nothing personal but I hate posts with abbreviations.

 

I had to google it what "Oval BA" could mean:

 

https://science.nasa...006/02mar_redjr

 

Oval BA is the smaller/younger brother of the Great Red Spot on Jupiter.

 

NASA** says:

 

"The official name of this storm is "Oval BA," but "Red Jr." might be better. It's about half the size of the famous Great Red Spot and almost exactly the same color."

 

 

** I have to stick to my guns: National Aeronautics and Space Administration

I too hate unexplained abbreviations.  Just give me the "real", unabbreviated name and I will use it. smile.gif

 

Most of the articles using the term "Red Spot Jr." came from the mid 2000's when the BA came into prominence and was red.  The photos I have looked at recently show it as white with maybe a red area surrounding.  However, that red area is much narrower than the white band around the Great Red Spot (GRS), which can be difficult to see unless the seeing is excellent.  There is a good recent photo here:  https://www.cloudyni...il-good-seeing/ .

 

Anyway, I'm a few months off from the best evening views, but I'm going to be looking for something white.



#6 jhbanister

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 04:32 PM

It doesn't remain constant.  Each of the bands/belts drift slowly relative to the others over weeks and months.  However, this relative movement is slow enough to use the GRS as a reference point.  Once you know where Oval BA and other features are you can track them and watch them evolve throughout an apparition.  In this same southern zone I can track the white ovals in decent seeing.   

Thanks.  Is there a web site or other information source with up-to-date info on BA's position?  



#7 Special Ed

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 05:30 PM

My visual observing goal for this year’s apparition of Jupiter is to observe Oval BA. From recent photos it looks to trail the Great Red Spot by about 90 degrees.  Is this correct, and does this distance remain fairly constant?

Oval BA isn't trailing the GRS--it's preceding it.

 

Astronomy abbreviations



#8 Cpk133

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 05:55 PM

You're on the right track.  Visit the imaging fora or ALPO Japan for recent photos of BA in relation to GRS, then go get the app "gas giants" or some other planetarium software and zoom in on Jup for GRS transit times.  If you want to go old school, use the transit times in Sky n tele.  You can also just look for it and when you see it, verify after the fact.  That way you don't go imagining things.  I observed it a number of times last year.  I found it rather conspicuous with a dusky border and a strong orange tinge.  Premium optics.


Edited by Cpk133, 23 April 2019 - 05:56 PM.


#9 Cpk133

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 06:02 PM

Thread I started last year:

 

https://www.cloudyni...pot-jr-6-31-18/

 

have fun hunting, isn't Jupiter great?



#10 Special Ed

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Posted 23 April 2019 - 08:45 PM

Looking at yesterday's images. Oval BA is at about CM II 230 degrees and kinda pale.  The GRS is following it at about CM II 311 degrees.



#11 Magnetic Field

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 02:13 AM

I too hate unexplained abbreviations.  Just give me the "real", unabbreviated name and I will use it. smile.gif

 

Most of the articles using the term "Red Spot Jr." came from the mid 2000's when the BA came into prominence and was red.  The photos I have looked at recently show it as white with maybe a red area surrounding.  However, that red area is much narrower than the white band around the Great Red Spot (GRS), which can be difficult to see unless the seeing is excellent.  There is a good recent photo here:  https://www.cloudyni...il-good-seeing/ .

 

Anyway, I'm a few months off from the best evening views, but I'm going to be looking for something white.

Is there a minimum requirement in terms of aperture for Junior Red Spot?

 

I think his father the Great Red Spot is a good object in even the smallest telescopes (e.g. 80 mm).


Edited by Magnetic Field, 24 April 2019 - 02:14 AM.


#12 Cirus

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 02:53 AM

Is there a minimum requirement in terms of aperture for Junior Red Spot?

I think his father the Great Red Spot is a good object in even the smallest telescopes (e.g. 80 mm).

Can see GRS presence in 60mm achromat telescopes.

Edited by Cirus, 24 April 2019 - 02:53 AM.


#13 Magnetic Field

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 03:15 AM

Can see GRS presence in 60mm achromat telescopes.

 

I know.

 

But the question was:

 

Can you see Oval BA also in your 60 mm achro?



#14 Redbetter

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 05:26 AM

Is there a minimum requirement in terms of aperture for Junior Red Spot?

 

I think his father the Great Red Spot is a good object in even the smallest telescopes (e.g. 80 mm).

I don't know about minimum aperture, but the low contrast of Oval BA/Red Spot Jr. in recent years has favored good seeing since color contrast gets wiped out in poor seeing.  In poor/average seeing only the darker brow around it has been visible in past years even in a large scope, while in good seeing folks describe color in as little as 60mm of aperture.  As the seeing improves, so does the impression of color in my experience.  This one has been very seeing sensitive for me, even more so than visibility of the white ovals, which are smaller (1/2 to 1/4 the diameter of Oval BA), but of substantially higher contrast. 

 

There might also be an individual color vision sensitivity aspect at play.  I find the color in this one very subtle in any aperture, some others do not.  I don't doubt them, but I don't know how much to chalk it up to color vision differences, observing experience/technique, and/or seeing impact on color contrast.

 

Keep in mind that the GRS and Oval BA have varied in color greatly over the years.  For a long time the GRS was a weak salmon color, rather unimpressive.  In the past few years it has recovered its characteristic color.  Meanwhile, in the past year Jupiter's equatorial zone has gone from creamy white with some bluer festoons, to a dark yellowish appearance. 


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#15 Special Ed

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 06:23 AM

My experience has been about the same as Redbetter's.  I'm one of those people who don't see color very readily but when I went from using my C8 to my C14 more color became visible on Jupiter.  But it's very seeing dependent.

 

Oval BA has been hard for me to spot sometimes with the C14 because of it's low contrast and/or the seeing.

 

For detecting planetary detail, seeing is the most important factor, IME, followed by observer experience and good optics.

 

For those who want to know if Oval BA can be seen with a 60mm refractor, look at the sketches by Sasa in this thread from last year.  Sasa has a good eye and several high quality small refractors (60mm, 63mm, and 80mm, IIRC).


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#16 David Gray

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 06:28 AM

Perhaps a lot of confusion with Jovian Nomenclature might be eased by simply referencing this old book: “The Planet Jupiter” B.M. Peek; which became the basis for observers learning the planet and conveying the standard terms still in use: visual & imagers alike. 

 

Dated yes as regards to current understanding; but the observational chapters are still valid and relevant for the visual observer – and indeed for students of the planet in general.

 

If the Link works it will take us to the pages that relate to the initial development of the ST (South Temperate) Ovals:  see *Addendum* page 121......

 

https://archive.org/...upiter/page/n63

 

As will be seen the whole book is available free on the site for study/referencing.

 

More general enlightenment here....... http://www.britastro...r/programme.htm

 

John Rogers has a more up to date book: "The Giant Planet Jupiter" - more advanced (and quite expensive!) but I regard Peek's book as essential grounding for tackling Rogers' book.

 

Dave.


Edited by David Gray, 24 April 2019 - 06:33 AM.

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#17 Special Ed

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 06:39 AM

These two images of Jupiter by Mr. Ferret give a good idea of what Oval BA looks like right now (and how pale it is).  Mr. Ferret does a very good job of processing--these images are much like what one sees visually.  Also, note how yellowish the Equatorial Zone (EZ) appears--that's something to look for when observing Jupiter visually this apparition.

 

Thanks for those links, Dave.  smile.gif 


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#18 SabiaJD

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 09:04 AM

It isn't an abbreviation.  "Oval BA" is the most common name for this long term feature.  BA is an alpha descriptor for storms in the south temperate belt (STB) that dates back to their original designations as AB, CD, EF in 1939.  Over the years they have merged, including with other later white ovals and gained new designations, Oval BA being the largest result of the mergers and resulting nomenclature updates.   

 

This is reminiscent of the period after Harry S. Truman's middle initial.  The S doesn't stand in for anything so the period is superfluous--counterproductive actually since it lengthens the name.  It is an initial, but there is no middle name since it references two grandfathers with different S names.   My mother's middle name is of the same form for her grandmothers.  But practice is to put periods after middle initials...so there it is, doing nothing but make the reader think the initial stands for something when it doesn't.

 The three oval that merge were designate as BC DE and FA,  Sometimes referred to as "Becky", "Della" and "Fay"  


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#19 Rutilus

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Posted 25 April 2019 - 03:13 PM

These two images of Jupiter by Mr. Ferret give a good idea of what Oval BA looks like right now (and how pale it is).  Mr. Ferret does a very good job of processing--these images are much like what one sees visually.  Also, note how yellowish the Equatorial Zone (EZ) appears--that's something to look for when observing Jupiter visually this apparition.

 

Thanks for those links, Dave.  smile.gif

Wow, Oval BA certainly has faded since my last observation of it in the year 2017.

This is how it appeared in my 120mm f/8 Achromat refractor, the GRS was on the limb

with oval BA preceding.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Jup-2152017-cn.jpg

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#20 Rich (RLTYS)

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 06:40 AM

Excellent sketch, thanks for the view. waytogo.gif



#21 David Gray

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Posted 26 April 2019 - 12:05 PM

The planet is very low here now: but persistence plus the ADC (Atmospheric Dispersion Corrector) & Apodizer has netted me a few good views recent weeks (not lately!...........).  But this a.m. I was able, eventually, to catch the planet quite well: Antoniadi II-III albeit in fitful mist – tho’ BA had rotated off the disk by then. The included sketch here to show what I take to be the continuing revival of the STB in the wake of BA.

 

The attached panel shows how I recorded BA the past three apparitions......pretty colourful in 2017; I had hopes of following up seeing that hue in 2018 using the ADC only to find it had paled to a flush of light orangish-ochre. More creamish this apparition but quite well marked due to the dark border that was also in evidence in 2018.

 

The SSSTB (South South South Temperate Belt) is more usually given as S3TB as it can start to get silly if, as has been recorded in latter times, even an SSSSSTB (S5TB or N5TB etc. etc.)................!!  Those belts can even be double so we might have SSSTB-components: SSSTB(S) & SSSTB(N) and so on.........crazyeyes.gif

 

Dave.

JUP 2019 BA etc.jpg

 


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#22 Rich (RLTYS)

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Posted 27 April 2019 - 06:59 AM

Beautiful sketches, thanks for the views.



#23 David Gray

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Posted 28 April 2019 - 09:07 AM

Thanks Rich, Michael, Christophe....... 

 

Cheers,

Dave.



#24 Special Ed

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 08:42 AM

Dave,

 

That's a good record of the changes of appearance (and position) of Oval BA over the past couple of years.  waytogo.gif 

 

Also, *very* nice portrait of the King on 26 April.  cool.gif 



#25 Cpk133

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 06:19 PM

Thanks Rich, Michael, Christophe....... 

 

Cheers,

Dave.

 

You could post the latest in the imaging forum waytogo.gif




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