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NV Binos with high magnification..?

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#1 opusone

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 01:11 AM

Hello all,

I'm wondering if there's 3rd Gen. NV binos with x10 or more magnification..

Fujinon makes one as far as I know( S1240 Stabiscope Day/Night Vision ).

Are there any other devices like this? Any information would be appreciated..

#2 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 01:39 AM

Hello all,

I'm wondering if there's 3rd Gen. NV binos with x10 or more magnification..

Fujinon makes one as far as I know( S1240 Stabiscope Day/Night Vision ).

Are there any other devices like this? Any information would be appreciated..

As far as I know the S1240 is a pretty unique product. IS binos that can be converted to daytime use or regular Binocular night time use then swap out to gen 3 equipped oculars. Handheld size (although a bit weighty for binos).

 

There are other Gen 3 binos, but they generally give the option of 1x and 3x magnifications due to size of 3x objectives and how close they can fit together. There are biocular options for 6x, 8x, and 10x configurations for pvs-7 type binoculars fitted with catadioptric lenses in those magnifications or as some of us do with pvs-7’s - fit a c-mount adapter on and use slr lenses of various types to get magnifications needed.

 

An slr lens that gives 10x mag is pretty large though. 

 

Some of us use small scopes from 50mm - 72mm to get similar results with pvs-7 goggles at Prime Focus. Oculars on pvs-7’s are around 27mm. At F/6 that’s about 16x power. With a .5x reducer screwed on the nosepiece giving less than .5x reduction (approx F/3.8) it comes close to 10x power. You would want to mount it though.

 

One could use a smaller binoscope fitted with two gen 3 monoculars as well. Cost would probably equal or exceed the Fijinon Stabiscope though and would most likely have to be mounted too.

 

If you have the coin for the Fujinon and really want a bino only with IS that can be handheld at those powers, it would be a nice product to have. Not sure if there is a way to attach filters to them which is where gen 3 intensifiers can really show their true power in narrowband Ha or longpass filtering to kill light pollution and still show HII regions with greater contrast.


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#3 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 01:56 AM

With a 40mm objective on the stabiscope, you could probably mount 2” astronomical filters on the outside of the objective though. Have to make a slip fit filter holder or something, but then you could enjoy spectacular narrowband Ha views with it also. Super large nebula like California, Rosette, Lagoon, North American, Gamma Cygni, etc would be viewable and literally just pop in view.

 

You have more options using a Monocular or biocular IMO (still comfortably use two eyes with a pvs-7) in a telescope though for hitting those targets that need higher mag.

 

Gives handheld options with sir lenses or telescope use and many different magnifications available down to 1x handheld or however high your telescope you choose goes with a 27mm eyepiece. Some even barlow them, although longer focal ratios presented to the Night Vision device by using a barlow will cause more noise in the system.


Edited by Vondragonnoggin, 24 April 2019 - 02:00 AM.

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#4 11769

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 01:59 AM

The Fraser Optics M25 binocs (and the civilian versions) have a provision for installing NV eyepieces. Daylight eyepieces are 14x and the NV ones are less than 14x though I've never measured the exact value and have never seen it specified in any OEM literature. The Fujinon Stabiscope also has the same issue. Magnification with NV eyepieces is less than the daytime eyepieces, probably around 6-8 or so. Still, very comfortable image. For astronomical and NV use, the civilian Fraser Optics binocs are slightly better as they don't have the mil laser filters which do produce a few extra reflections near light sources (and reduce image brightness with daytime eyepieces). 

 

The design of the Fraser Optics NV eyepieces is not optimized though. Extra reflections are just one issue. The ocular lenses seem to have been designed for an image tube with a flat output screen but eyepieces use standard 10130 format tubes which have a slightly concave output screen. Image aberration is noticeable but doesn't get in the way too bad. The Stabiscope eyepieces use special flat output window tubes and the image quality is more pleasing. Only issue is that the Fraser eyepieces come with everything up to Omni 7 tubes while the Stabiscope eyepieces I have use the equivalent of Omni 3 tubes. Don't know how long Fujinon kept on producing the NV eyepieces so there may be some with better tubes. The older eyepieces also have the tubes potted in place with no way to swap them out while the Fraser binocs have easily replaceable tubes. 

 

At the end of the day, NV binocs aren't as great as one would expect. The glass is always very slow and the tubes, no matter how good they are, don't like that. 


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#5 TOMDEY

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 03:37 AM

The problem is that the feed will be relatively slow at 10x, unless the objectives are HUGE (like the 3x dedicated NV lens has a 50mm aperture) so, to get equivalent illumination at 10x, your binos would need lenses that are over six inches in diameter! What I'm saying, is that even under ideal conditions, "regular" 10x binos will present a pretty disappointing, dark and noisy Night Vision rendition... which kinda kills the intent.    Tom


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#6 opusone

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 05:32 AM

Vondragonnoggin, 11769, Tom,
Thank you so much for your detailed answers!

I'm planning on a large binoscope with Tele Vue-TNVC eyepieces. I think I'll focus on this one instead of s1240..

Edited by opusone, 24 April 2019 - 06:04 AM.


#7 opusone

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 06:03 AM

BTW, how do you think about this one in the link below?

Although it has only x3.6 magnification. I wonder if it's a good one for stargazing. (Or is there even better one available..?)

https://www.nightoptics.com/mm5/

#8 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 06:35 AM

BTW, how do you think about this one in the link below?

Although it has only x3.6 magnification. I wonder if it's a good one for stargazing. (Or is there even better one available..?)

https://www.nightoptics.com/mm5/

That link just takes me to a page showing thermal riflescopes.

 

Maybe needs a better link?



#9 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 06:48 AM

If you want flexibility and something that others have tested and recommend, check these out

 

https://tnvc.com/sho...ravo-monocular/

 

Choose c-mount, L3 filmless white phosphor for the tube, and manual gain

 

If you contact TNVC, see if they will get you a matched set of tubes (tubes similar in specs)

 

There is a thread called “tube specs” or something like that started by 11769 if you want an idea of what specs to look for

 

The mod 3 can be coupled together to make a Binocular or used as Monocular 

 

Since TNVC sells the afocal adapters, when you contact them, tell them you want objective lenses that will work with their afocal adapters. Afocal with TNVC adapter and Televue compatible eyepiece will be just another option on how to use it. You will be able to use these Prime Focus too. C-mount will let you screw a nosepiece on after unscrewing objective lens.

 

You then have the option of connecting them afocally with a matched pair of Televue eyepieces or using Prime Focus right in the binobacks of the binoscope acting as two 27mm eyepieces.


Edited by Vondragonnoggin, 24 April 2019 - 06:48 AM.

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#10 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 06:52 AM

What telescope or telescopes do you have now?


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#11 opusone

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:07 AM

That link just takes me to a page showing thermal riflescopes.

Maybe needs a better link?



Sorry for the wrong link. I meant this one..
https://www.nightopt.../NB-321F3BW.htm

#12 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:15 AM

Sorry for the wrong link. I meant this one..
https://www.nightopt.../NB-321F3BW.htm

Not one that I would personally pick. Very limiting in configurations compared to a mod 3 setup. 

 

They dont look too bad, but I think you’ll be limited by these and there are better options available.

 

Mod 3 - Being able to use as monocular or binocular and having c-mounts is extremely flexible as well as having manual gain feature which can help in dialing back noise and scintillation if using narrowband Ha filters which you will definitely want.

 

Highly recommend Mod 3 manual gain housings with c-mount. TNVC will know how to set you up and they would be perfect for binoscope or handheld use or break apart and use a single Monocular if you want too.


Edited by Vondragonnoggin, 24 April 2019 - 07:16 AM.

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#13 opusone

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:17 AM

What telescope or telescopes do you have now?

I have a RH200.. Going to get a bigger astrograph and a binoscope for visual use.

Considering RiFast 300 and CFF 160mm binoscope.

Thank you very much for your answers!


Edited by opusone, 24 April 2019 - 08:46 AM.


#14 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:28 AM

I have a RH200.. Going to get a bigger astrograph and a biniscope for visual use.

Condidering RiFast 300 and CFF 160mm binoscope.

Thank you very much for your answers!

RH200 looks like a fantastic scope for NV - as long as you have the back focus for a diagonal for visual use.

 

F/3 and 200mm should get you nice bright nebula views with a narrowband Ha filter. It is an astrograph though, so not sure if you have the back focus for a diagonal with a Monocular in the RH200. 

 

The CFF 160 should be fine with the EMS Matsumoto binobacks.


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#15 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:48 AM

Not sure if previous TNVC link I posted had a picture of the mod 3 in Binocular configuration, but this link does

 

https://tnvc.com/sho...-l-3-omni-viii/


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#16 opusone

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:50 AM

RH200 looks like a fantastic scope for NV - as long as you have the back focus for a diagonal for visual use.

F/3 and 200mm should get you nice bright nebula views with a narrowband Ha filter. It is an astrograph though, so not sure if you have the back focus for a diagonal with a Monocular in the RH200.

The CFF 160 should be fine with the EMS Matsumoto binobacks.


I never considered it as a visual scope. I should definitely try it. Looking forward to get the Binoscope as well.

#17 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 07:59 AM

I never considered it as a visual scope. I should definitely try it. Looking forward to get the Binoscope as well.

Ask TNVC about a relay lens for the mod 3 to use with your camera too.

 

I have ccd and dslr relay lenses for one of my Litton monoculars.


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#18 Jeff Morgan

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 08:28 AM

An slr lens that gives 10x mag is pretty large though. 

 

Indeed.

 

IMG_1132.jpg
 
That is what an 11x monocular looks like at f/2.8. It weighs ballpark 5 pounds.
 
The root of the issue is the NV device is effectively a 27mm eyepiece. Working the problem backwards, to get 10x you need 270mm of objective lens focal length.
 
Since we're talking an electronic sensor, speed is desirable. But suppose you were to settle for a common binocular objective of f/4? The objective lenses would be 65mm each. Still no lightweight, given the Techno-Stabi is currently 40mm. So the resulting device would not be hand-held and the speed would not be optimum.
 
Now if there was a NV device that used a shorter focal length eyepiece ... that Unicorn might change things quite a bit. 

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#19 TOMDEY

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 10:28 AM

Vondragonnoggin, 11769, Tom,
Thank you so much for your detailed answers!
I'm planning on a large binoscope with Tele Vue-TNVC eyepieces. I think I'll focus on this one instead of s1240..

Yes indeed! And that afocal approach also allows you to drive the system with a fast feed to the GaAs Photocathodes, much faster than regular eyepieces allow, due to your eye's pupil restricting mags to 3x/inch of aperture ~or higher~ With afocal to NV, you can go 2x/inch or even faster, provided the eyepiece you are using can gracefully handle such a gargantuan exit pupil. That's a big topic that is generally not understood by most amateurs (and even many professionals). Afocal sends the light thru a hell of a lot of glass, though, so there is no free lunch. Here's an image of my big NV binos. On these, I went straight from the scope to the GaAs, with no intervening glass, not even the NV objective lenses, which are removed. I can go afocal as well. Nice views of Deep Sky stuff, of course!    Tom

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#20 opusone

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 02:46 PM

Yes indeed! And that afocal approach also allows you to drive the system with a fast feed to the GaAs Photocathodes, much faster than regular eyepieces allow, due to your eye's pupil restricting mags to 3x/inch of aperture ~or higher~ With afocal to NV, you can go 2x/inch or even faster, provided the eyepiece you are using can gracefully handle such a gargantuan exit pupil. That's a big topic that is generally not understood by most amateurs (and even many professionals). Afocal sends the light thru a hell of a lot of glass, though, so there is no free lunch. Here's an image of my big NV binos. On these, I went straight from the scope to the GaAs, with no intervening glass, not even the NV objective lenses, which are removed. I can go afocal as well. Nice views of Deep Sky stuff, of course!    Tom

Thanks for your reply Tom. That's one hell of a binoscope you got there! Wow..

 

There's a lot of things to study in just one topic. Only in CloudyNights! It truly is a hard hobby to enjoy..

 

 

 

 

BTW, I'm still very not sure whether I should get a 160mm(F6.5) binoscope or a 22~24inch(F3.3) dobsonian with NV eyepieces for visual use..

 

I do understand the difference of aperture but I really like the view of binoscopes(and I dont' like binoviewers). May I ask what would you choose between the two?

 

Any other, or better suggestions would be greatly appreciated.. Thanks!



#21 TOMDEY

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 03:12 PM

Thanks for your reply Tom. That's one hell of a binoscope you got there! Wow..

There's a lot of things to study in just one topic. Only in CloudyNights! It truly is a hard hobby to enjoy..

BTW, I'm still very not sure whether I should get a 160mm(F6.5) binoscope or a 22~24inch(F3.3) dobsonian with NV eyepieces for visual use..

I do understand the difference of aperture but I really like the view of binoscopes(and I dont' like binoviewers). May I ask what would you choose between the two?

Any other, or better suggestions would be greatly appreciated.. Thanks!

I do nearly all of my astronomy True Binocular (not Binoviewer, which splits the light, only half or less going to each eye). Except for my biggest scope, 36-inch F/3.75. That has Night Vision on it, but just monocular.    Tom



#22 11769

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 03:36 PM

A Mod-3C is your ticket if you're after as much flexibility as possible. If you can find a pair of original ENVIS objective lenses, all the better. A pair of 3x magnifiers can be screwed into the ENVIS lens (or more or less any mil objective) and now you have a 3x binocular with very fast and very light glass. Only limitation is that the min IPD adjustment becomes limited with the 3x magnifiers installed so it may not work for some with a small head. Same IPD limitation would also come into play using a Mod-3C with larger C-mount lenses as well. The ability to use arbitrarily large lenses with a monocular is a pretty good advantage as well. Jeff Morgan's Canon lens arrangement looks quite sweet. 

 

If H-alpha observation is not your thing and you're more after low power wide field views, a set of ANVIS goggles with 3x magnifiers is a really lightweight solution. ANVIS housings tend to be cheaper as well but no prime focus provision. One advantage of ANVIS glass is the built-in high pass coating (685nm if memory serves though there's more that goes into). The increase in contrast is noticeable and the views offered are very pleasing to the eye but again, no ability to observe H-alpha. 

 

For any very fast handheld binocular, 3x is about the limit not only because of IPD spacing but also weight. Heavy binocs are not fun. Though bulky, coupling a NV monocular (or two) downstream of binocs is any option. A monocular downstream of Fraser binocs offers a better (and slightly brighter) image than the NV eyepieces themselves. Decently fun combo with 7x50 binocs too. 

 

For the OP's needs, a PVS-7 with a good tube may be worth reconsidering. Binoviewer but works with any size C-mount objective or more or less any telescope. 

 

Shop around before making this big a purchase. TNVC advertises most heavily but that is not the same getting the best quality. 



#23 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 April 2019 - 05:41 PM

I looked at the RH200 manual. 115mm from back plate is the back focus length. Looks like you could use a 1.25” diagonal for visual with a Mod 3C Monocular or if you want to use two eyes, a pvs-7 with c-mount adapter and 1.25” nosepiece.

 

You might try a 1.25” diagonal with a regular 1.25” eyepiece to test and see if it will come to focus. Maybe something close in focal length to 27mm. If you have plenty of focus room on either side, then either pvs-7 biocular or Mod 3C Monocular should work in that scope.

 

F/3 and 200mm is very desirable for narrowband Ha viewing. 


Edited by Vondragonnoggin, 24 April 2019 - 05:48 PM.



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