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It starts, Space X launches 1st 60 of its 12,000 satellite fleet

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#1 t_image

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 02:50 AM

Sure, let's add a whole bunch of floating 500lb 'bullets' up there. It's not crowded yet.

No worries of the Kessler cascading domino effect collision syndrome. /sarcasm

We can't even figure out how to clean up all the dead junk we've already sent up there.

 

Can't wait for OneWeb,Telesat, and Amazon to add their thousands up there as well.

All so more people can stare at their phones some more...

 

https://www.space.co...satellites.html


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#2 Lukes1040

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:50 AM

These satellites all have individual propulsion mechanisms that de-orbit them at the end of their life. They spoke about it on the live stream last night. I forget the details, but essentially they are designed to de-orbit over a couple days but if the mechanism fails, they will naturally de-orbit in a time frame less than half of the current industry standard. 

 

Edit: They also have on-orbit debris tracking and the ability to autonomously avoid collisions


Edited by Lukes1040, 24 May 2019 - 06:53 AM.

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#3 Cali

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 07:11 AM

RE: "...they will naturally de-orbit in a time frame less than half of the current industry standard."

 

Anyone know what the current "industry standard" is?

 

Just wonder'in.

 

- Cal



#4 Augustus

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:03 AM

The recent Indian ASAT test was far more destructive than any of these satellites will be. The SpaceX sats have onboard maneuvering to steer clear of debris in real time, and will burn up quickly if they fail thanks to the low orbit and the relatively non-durable construction.

 

Also, Starlink is supposed to raise money for SpaceX's Mars project.......


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#5 BradFran

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:07 AM

Does anyone know how bright they will appear? Irridium flares were cool, but 12,000 shiny things in orbit could get old quick.


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#6 Lukes1040

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:22 AM

RE: "...they will naturally de-orbit in a time frame less than half of the current industry standard."

 

Anyone know what the current "industry standard" is?

 

Just wonder'in.

 

- Cal

Finally found where it was discussed again.

 

"Industry Standard" is 25 years. Spacex will naturally de-orbit in 1-5 years if the propulsion system fails. 


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#7 Augustus

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:23 AM

Does anyone know how bright they will appear? Irridium flares were cool, but 12,000 shiny things in orbit could get old quick.

The satellites are not very big and do not have large solar panels. Probably invisible.


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#8 Richard Whalen

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:45 AM

Saw the rocket go up from my front porch, huge orange/red  plume. Pretty cool!


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#9 ch2co

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:59 AM

As I understand it (which isn't much) wink.gif , the satellites will orbit between 340 and 550 km. which is quite low, BUT the first installment due in 2024-2027 will be around 12,000 of these things with possible future full earth coverage of up to a million??? Wikipedia has a pretty good rundown on this project. The low earth orbits should greatly improve their disintegration time during de-orbit.

I am worried about 12000 not alone one million of these things cluttering up my sky between My telescope and MY heavens.  I'm a big SpaceX fan overall but worry about this project.

 

Chuck the Grumpy One


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#10 t_image

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 05:55 PM

The recent Indian ASAT test was far more destructive than any of these satellites will be. The SpaceX sats have onboard maneuvering to steer clear of debris in real time, and will burn up quickly if they fail thanks to the low orbit and the relatively non-durable construction.

 

Also, Starlink is supposed to raise money for SpaceX's Mars project.......

Feel free to expand on this point if you have some science to back this up, otherwise I'm going to presume you are making an opinion statement incorrectly worded with certainty.....

And how possibly could one be so confident about ventures that have never happened before?

 

At least India was considering their own national security.

 

Also you missed the point of concept of scale of number of objects in these different constellations,

in a not-so-regulated and "we've never done this before" situation.

Good thing humanity has always been so careful of how they treat the surrounding environment.

Consider there are maybe only 4,000 functional satellites in orbit currently.

These companies want to put how many?????


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#11 t_image

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:13 PM

These satellites all have individual propulsion mechanisms that de-orbit them at the end of their life. They spoke about it on the live stream last night. I forget the details, but essentially they are designed to de-orbit over a couple days but if the mechanism fails, they will naturally de-orbit in a time frame less than half of the current industry standard. 

 

Edit: They also have on-orbit debris tracking and the ability to autonomously avoid collisions

Be careful not to conflate the specifics of the first 60 with the total constellations that these companies are planning.

As well, there are multiple orbital shells planned for the various satellites,

so "de-orbit" time will vary quite a bit between a 340km orbit and a 1,200km orbit.

I'm not saying the world is ending tomorrow.

I am saying just like some other things that didn't go well,

scaling up to such a degree could have serious consequences, and these are much more of a worry than any scuttle about some flashy artistic satellite or the other that gained so much more hype.....

And it'd be one thing if they were being used to feed the hungry of the world,

but fast internet so people can waste their hours on social media isn't doing anyone any favors.....

I wonder when Geico will start doing satellite collision insurance commercials.foreheadslap.gif


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#12 Augustus

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 06:23 PM

Feel free to expand on this point if you have some science to back this up, otherwise I'm going to presume you are making an opinion statement incorrectly worded with certainty.....

And how possibly could one be so confident about ventures that have never happened before?

 

At least India was considering their own national security.

 

Also you missed the point of concept of scale of number of objects in these different constellations,

in a not-so-regulated and "we've never done this before" situation.

Good thing humanity has always been so careful of how they treat the surrounding environment.

Consider there are maybe only 4,000 functional satellites in orbit currently.

These companies want to put how many?????

The Indian ASAT test created a cloud in a polar orbit, mostly of tiny shrapnel that can't be tracked. Contrast that with satellites in lower inclination orbits that are much, much bigger......

 

India wasn't considering their own national security. It was a political stunt right before the elections. They have had the ASAT missiles for years.


Edited by Augustus, 24 May 2019 - 06:24 PM.

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#13 Lukes1040

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:24 PM

Be careful not to conflate the specifics of the first 60 with the total constellations that these companies are planning.
As well, there are multiple orbital shells planned for the various satellites,
so "de-orbit" time will vary quite a bit between a 340km orbit and a 1,200km orbit.
I'm not saying the world is ending tomorrow.
I am saying just like some other things that didn't go well,
scaling up to such a degree could have serious consequences, and these are much more of a worry than any scuttle about some flashy artistic satellite or the other that gained so much more hype.....
And it'd be one thing if they were being used to feed the hungry of the world,
but fast internet so people can waste their hours on social media isn't doing anyone any favors.....
I wonder when Geico will start doing satellite collision insurance commercials.foreheadslap.gif


I agree completely that this is indeed a risky endeavor. But to conflate this massive undertaking to suggest its to help people visit social media is disingenuous. The internet powers our world as we know it today. To be able to give almost the entire world access to high speed internet is no small feat, and it could have major impacts on world economics.

Sure, future satellites aren’t guaranteed to be as autonomous as the current models, but I would guess as time advances they will become even better and not worse. Sure there is a “chance” future satellites will be dumbed down, but I would think that the FCC and FAA approvals would require satellites of the same or greater abilities. Maybe I’m naive.

Again, I do think this is risky, but I also think it’s a matter of time before someone does it. And personally, I believe SpaceX May currently be our best chance to get to mars. So if I were to pick which company would take this chance (between spacex, and the other private companies) my vote would be for spacex. As they are the ones with lofty goals for mankind.
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#14 lucutes

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:30 PM

So ya, 12,000 of these puppies flying around? They look pretty visible for a 50mm lens.

https://vimeo.com/338361997


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#15 kksmith

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 06:19 AM

Wouldn't it be ironic that when we finally have the means to leave Earth orbit, again, we can't do so safely because there's too much space crap in the way.  

 

Ken


Edited by kksmith, 25 May 2019 - 06:20 AM.

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#16 BradFran

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 07:29 AM

I hope they git dimmer in their final orbit.

 

https://youtu.be/uZWgD_9qJdE


Edited by BradFran, 25 May 2019 - 07:31 AM.

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#17 Crusty99

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 09:16 AM

Not sure what to say. The posted videos in this thread are not encouraging. However, makes me glad I donated my larger scopes for a return to planet and lunar observing with small refractors and binoculars. And what is already online about DSOs should be there for more people to enjoy as the internet improves in the future.

Maybe there is some mention of this in sci-fi literature.



#18 lucutes

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 10:35 AM

Somebody on Reddit was saying because they are in being placed in low low Earth orbit they should only be visible during twilight. 

 

Makes an even better case for the RASA wink.gif


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#19 t_image

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 11:41 AM

Somebody on Reddit was saying because they are in being placed in low low Earth orbit they should only be visible during twilight. 

 

Makes an even better case for the RASA wink.gif

Be careful of the comments out there. It's good that CN forums can filter through fact/myth.

"they are being placed in low Earth orbit" means nothing, LEO is a huge range until MEO. Even if your intentionally said "low low"

Firstly, there are 3 orbital shells of LEO that the Starlink constellation will have.

Second, the whole "twilight thing" can be debunked outright with any look at ISS passes deep into the night this season.

Such is a misnomer myth that is generally anecdotal if considering winter months at mid-latitude given the generality of the existing satellite orbits.

Just 1/3 of the Starlinks will double the number of existing operational satellites....

Thirdly people assume that they will all share the same orbital inclination....(false)

This first batch of sixty (still testers) will occupy a 53 degree orbital plane.


Edited by t_image, 25 May 2019 - 12:13 PM.

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#20 t_image

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 12:10 PM

RE: Augustus and Lukes1040.

Whether one sees saber-rattling statecraft as politics or natsec tactics is a little off-topic.

 

The internet is a force-multiplier for good and bad.

No telling the secondary-unintended consequences that could arise.

Also the internet exists based on data server centers. Guess how much electrical power is utilized for datacenter operations?

Guess how much waste is associated with keeping all those harddrives spinning while being air conditioned to 'drive' the internet?

People concerned about Climate Change should consider this...

My point is not mere deconstruction, but just to raise the question whether this strategy will have more negatives than gains associated with the venture, especially with regards to the on-topic idea of utilizing Earth orbits and its effect on observing as well...

 

 

Interesting in a video explaining the comm-links of the constellation,

there is the comment:

"an important property is phase offset between orbital planes...if you get this wrong, the satellites collide, which would be bad...."

 

I don't expect for them to get it wrong, but there is the concept of tolerances, and what happens if something doesn't go well...

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=3479tkagiNo

 

As to the concept of ASAT explosion bits verses Starlink, they aren't exactly two separate issues. One could actually threaten the chances of the other's impact/collision.... So it isn't a zero sum argument.....


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#21 ADIEL

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 01:28 PM

Why worry, this could be our answer for global warming, we'll block out the sun with space debris! waytogo.gif 


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#22 ch2co

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:35 PM

Why worry, this could be our answer for global warming, we'll block out the sun with space debris! waytogo.gif

A veritable Dyson sphereshocked.gif   

Spaceweather.com today 5-25, has a short but very alarming video showing a line of the satellites a short time after their launch. They were naked-eye visible at about magnitude 2-3!  Yikes!!

I hope that this is just a pre orbital event. I can't imagine 1200 of these covering the sky. Add to that they are envisioning a final constellation of many times that amount. I can't imagine what this

would do to earth based astronomy. These would all be operating in very-low Earth orbits making even their somewhat diminutive size rather large in the night sky.

 

Chuck the Very Grumpy One



#23 ch2co

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:38 PM

I should have said "an earth centered version of a Dyson like sphere.

 

CTVGO



#24 Barlowbill

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 03:24 PM

I hope UFOs don't run into them.


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#25 Psion

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 03:55 AM

This is end of the photography astronomy.
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