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Is STARLINK going to impact astrophotography?

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#151 dawziecat

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 03:45 PM

I have to laugh! Patience! Give it time!

Soon there will be absolutely no one out trying to see Starlinks! frown.gif



#152 Riccardo_italy

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Posted 04 March 2020 - 05:13 PM

The idea that you have to choose between internet access for poor countries and astronomy is false. You could have both, by simply making those satellites less/no reflective to sunlight.

Of course, this cost money. So you need a public regulator to force private firms to spend those money to reduce the negative externality. But the US seem not very concerned about externalities....


Edited by Riccardo_italy, 04 March 2020 - 05:15 PM.


#153 freestar8n

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Posted 05 March 2020 - 02:39 AM

I have to laugh! Patience! Give it time!

Soon there will be absolutely no one out trying to see Starlinks! frown.gif

I have no doubt these things will be quite prominent soon enough.  But I'm trying to assess the extent of the current impact along with the impact in the middle of the night in the future - when many overhead will be in darkness.

 

I am in no way diminishing the severity of what is happening - just trying to keep its impact realistic on casual and sophisticated observers - and at all times of night.  Some of the images shown with many streaks look bad - as do the trains of light seen not long after release.  But if it is hard to see evidence of those things now with naked eye then we shouldn't overstate the impact at this stage.

 

So I will continue monitoring in various ways.

 

I guess one way to put it is - the aesthetic impact on the change in the night sky and how it is perceived may not matter much if people aren't even looking up at the sky in the first place.  And it's the lack of appreciation for the night sky that is the main concern for me - and I don't see a good solution for that.  Other than support for the International Dark Sky Association - and local outreach to get people looking up.

Frank


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#154 Lucullus

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Posted 05 March 2020 - 04:48 AM

https://www.eso.org/...c/news/eso2004/

30-50% of LSST images could be ruined by those constellations. How about if the National Science Foundation demands from SpaceX, Amazon and OneWeb to pay for 30-50% of the LSST construction costs. waytogo.gif

On page 10 there's written: "[...] for some programmes, any trail inthe field of view could ruin the whole frame, no matter howfaint  it  is."

What programmes are these?

 

 

The idea that you have to choose between internet access for poor countries and astronomy is false. You could have both, by simply making those satellites less/no reflective to sunlight.

Of course, this cost money. So you need a public regulator to force private firms to spend those money to reduce the negative externality. But the US seem not very concerned about externalities....

See posts #103 and #125. Blackening doesn't seem to have the hoped for dimming effect up to now.

 

 

One question: If OneWeb manages to get assumingly good internet access to the world community with about 650 satellites, why doesn't SpaceX manage the same? More data stream capacity assuming equally strong satellites, or more satellites due to weaker satellites?

If equally strong satellites for Starlink and OneWeb is assumed, what's the use of so many more Starlink satellites? More Cute Kitty clips from youtube... there goes Musks argument of a right for valuable internet. Nothing against educational purposes for developing countries, but Musk could be honest and admit he doesn't do it for them, but for the industrial countries. In all honesty: in the end it's Cute Kitty against astronomy.


Edited by Lucullus, 05 March 2020 - 06:07 PM.


#155 Riccardo_italy

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Posted 05 March 2020 - 06:57 AM

See posts #103 and #125. Blackening doesn't seem to have the hoped for dimming effect up to now.

If enough money are poured into finding a way to darken those satellites, they will do it. But, out of some marketing-driven half hearted tries, I do not think a private firm has any incentive in spending real money to solve the problem.

 

This is EXACTLY the same problem of reducing CO2 emissions (of course, on a different scale).


Edited by Riccardo_italy, 05 March 2020 - 07:00 AM.

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#156 Lucullus

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Posted 05 March 2020 - 02:15 PM

If enough money are poured into finding a way to darken those satellites, they will do it. But, out of some marketing-driven half hearted tries, I do not think a private firm has any incentive in spending real money to solve the problem.

 

This is EXACTLY the same problem of reducing CO2 emissions (of course, on a different scale).

Absolutely true from an economic point!

From a physical point I read somewhere that the Darksat satellite body did not seem to have an effect and the real problems are the solar reflectivity of the large solar panels, which can't be blackened. It's also a problem of heat absorption.
 



#157 lambermo

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Posted 05 March 2020 - 04:53 PM

For completeness, the ESO study "On the Impact of Satellite Constellations on Astronomical Observations with ESO telescopes in the Visible and Infrared Domains" which Lucullus already mentioned is now also on arxiv:  https://arxiv.org/abs/2003.01992

-- Hans


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#158 Riccardo_italy

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Posted 06 March 2020 - 10:22 AM

Thanks Lambermo! To summarize (and I hope I have understood correctly):

- the wider the field

- the longer the exposure

- the closer to twilight

- the closer (from below) your latitude w.r.t. the orbit inclination of the satellites (*)

and the higher the probability of having trails in your image.

 

(*) Say an orbit inclination of 80°. Then from 0° to 80° latitude, the density of satellites is increasing in your latitude. Above 80°, density will be (almost?) zero. Generally, for these types of mega-constellations, inclinations of 42° to 80° are used.



#159 Lucullus

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Posted 14 April 2020 - 06:25 PM

Impressive!

https://www.iau.org/...tail/ann19035b/



#160 Lucullus

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Posted 17 April 2020 - 05:33 AM

Also this at minute 49:20.



#161 Lucullus

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Posted 26 April 2020 - 04:54 PM

What do you think about this solution for long exposure imaging, e.g. 5 minute sub-exposures of slow asteroids?

https://www.stealthtransit.com/



#162 InFINNity

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 04:05 AM

That is just taking away the symptoms, not the cause... A kind of damage-control...

 

Nicolàs



#163 sbsbbugsy

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Posted 27 April 2020 - 11:59 AM

We were told that the Starlink satellites would not be an issue in the middle of the night.

 

I know from personal experience that satellites will reflect light from brighter celestial object such as M42 and leave trails across the image.



#164 Miranda2525

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Posted 02 May 2020 - 01:15 AM

We were told that the Starlink satellites would not be an issue in the middle of the night.

 

I know from personal experience that satellites will reflect light from brighter celestial object such as M42 and leave trails across the image.

I was out observing last night. I saw a whole bunch of them orbiting and it was really distracting. It affects visual astronomy as well. These should be outlawed.


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#165 Lucullus

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Posted 25 August 2020 - 04:16 PM

https://www.eso.org/...ments/ann20022/



#166 andysea

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Posted 25 August 2020 - 04:54 PM

I don't think that this link has already been posted 

https://www.youtube....h?v=LaR6v0p6pB4

 

It's a very informative webinar on the impact that satellite constellations have on science. I recommend watching it, there is some very interesting data.



#167 InFINNity

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 06:59 AM

Here is another video "...to raise public awareness of the Starlink Constellation and voice the concerns of the international astronomy community for mega constellation projects":

 

https://youtu.be/tlqZyJZjFc0

 

Nicolàs



#168 Hypoxic

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 10:31 AM

I just wonder when certain countries are going to get paranoid and start shooting them down.



#169 Benni123456

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 07:00 PM

The thing is: If Musk really would care about the developing world (I understand Musk is from South Africa), then he would just need to ask "what conditions does he need to create Tesla factories in the rural South African countryside?" and then help the governments make these condtitions...

 

Internet access is one of the least concerns.

But basic infrastructure (transport infrastructure like rails and roads, electrical power, water, food, healthcare, education) is. If you have that you can have industry. The internet companies will then move in automatically.....

 

There is not much need for a satellite internet...

 

What good is a satellite internet for local farmers who can not afford to buy or repair a computer?

Or when you do not even have a hospital nearby?

Or when there is no electrical power....

 

Satellite internet is usually for rich people who work on oil platforms.... These are rare applications.. they do not need so many satellites...


Edited by Benni123456, 11 November 2020 - 07:02 PM.

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#170 Forward Scatter

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Posted 11 November 2020 - 07:29 PM

The thing is: If Musk really would care about the developing world (I understand Musk is from South Africa), then he would just need to ask "what conditions does he need to create Tesla factories in the rural South African countryside?" and then help the governments make these condtitions...

 

Internet access is one of the least concerns.

But basic infrastructure (transport infrastructure like rails and roads, electrical power, water, food, healthcare, education) is. If you have that you can have industry. The internet companies will then move in automatically.....

 

There is not much need for a satellite internet...

 

What good is a satellite internet for local farmers who can not afford to buy or repair a computer?

Or when you do not even have a hospital nearby?

Or when there is no electrical power....

 

Satellite internet is usually for rich people who work on oil platforms.... These are rare applications.. they do not need so many satellites...

Who benefits from the MuskSats? It comes down to latency. Speed up monetary transactions by 0.1 seconds and make a dime or so more per unit transacted. Do 100 million monetary transactions and make $10 million more. One gets the picture....

 

The "bringing high speed internet to third world farmers" is just a PR ploy to quiet/silence critics.  




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