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Light pollution tax

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#76 csa/montana

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 08:59 AM

 

  but the electric companies would fight you to the death for trying to reduce electric bills by using less energy

Strange; my electric company always has a brochure included with the bill, telling how consumers can indeed reduce their usage. shrug.gif 


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#77 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 09:23 AM

Strange; my electric company always has a brochure included with the bill, telling how consumers can indeed reduce their usage. shrug.gif

 

:waytogo:

 

They'll get their money one way or the other....

 

Jon


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#78 rockethead26

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 09:31 AM

Strange; my electric company always has a brochure included with the bill, telling how consumers can indeed reduce their usage. shrug.gif

Ours does the same thing, but in the background, they have lobbied successfully to eliminate tax credits for home solar use, have raised the base fee for solar users to connect to the grid from $25 to $100/month, and and on Dec 31st each year "buy" all solar users accumulated excess energy that they fed the grid over the most productive months right before they need it most in the winter for 10% of the going rate.

 

On my end it equates to stealing about two months worth of energy every year that I produced. The effect is that we have no accumulated energy to use for the most intensive months of electric energy use from Jan to March when it's snowy and cloudy and production is down, so we are pretty much paying the same to heat our homes as non-solar users in the winter.

 

Yeah, electric companies are thinking of us, but not to help save us money, but how they can use us to make even more.


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#79 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 09:55 AM

Yeah, electric companies are thinking of us, but not to help save us money, but how they can use us to make even more.

 

 

Jim:

 

I suspect the reason they send us those energy saving reminders is that it's mandated by law or maybe by the public utility commission.

 

And of course, one way or the other, we are paying for those service announcements..

 

Jon


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#80 csa/montana

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 10:03 AM

Sorry I brought up the brochures.crazy.gif 



#81 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 10:39 AM

I worked in the electric utility industry for over 35 years, for a relatively large and progressive cooperative, retiring in March 2014.   Over the years, I collaborated with many departments in trying to educate employees to relay to the public on how to use less energy, in addition to many times talking with consumers myself.  We didn't do it because some government body mandated it. 

 

It's in the interest of the industry to keep the demand down, in order to delay the building of more (expensive) power plants.  That cooperative has a board that is elected by the member-owners, and those board members are quite responsive to consumer concerns.

 

We tried to talk to consumers about responsible outdoor lighting also.  For example, someone might request a 1,000 or 400 watt light, and we would assess the need and convince them most of the time to go with much lesser wattage, as most consumers don't know how much light those high wattage fixtures put out, and they would be generally unhappy with the monthly cost of a high wattage fixture.  We would put up switches on our lights when provided and requested, and would paint globes and install "dark sky caps", usually at no cost to the consumer, when there was a concern.


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#82 WoodyEnd

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 01:32 PM

Power companies need to reduce power consumption in my state due to extreme restrictions on building new power plants.  On hot days they can't keep up with demand.  



#83 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 01:39 PM

Power companies need to reduce power consumption in my state due to extreme restrictions on building new power plants.  On hot days they can't keep up with demand.  

What state?   Outdoor lighting is generally an off-peak load, unless controls fail and the lights are on in the daytime.

 

Peak demand is usually around 4 to 7 PM in the summer and 6 to 8 AM in the winter.  In a winter peaked area, lighting may contribute to peak demand in the early parts of that peak.


Edited by John Fitzgerald, 07 July 2019 - 01:40 PM.

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#84 csrlice12

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 02:46 PM

My latest idea....a no light bill....somebody will certainly figure out a way to make you pay for it though.



#85 WoodyEnd

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 03:26 PM

What state?   Outdoor lighting is generally an off-peak load, unless controls fail and the lights are on in the daytime.

 

Peak demand is usually around 4 to 7 PM in the summer and 6 to 8 AM in the winter.  In a winter peaked area, lighting may contribute to peak demand in the early parts of that peak.

California. It is true that outdoor lighting is off peak but then again solar does not work well at night.



#86 Phil Cowell

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 07:54 AM

Power companies need to reduce power consumption in my state due to extreme restrictions on building new power plants.  On hot days they can't keep up with demand.  

Then bring in power generated from out of state, that’s how the grid works. This is a straw man argument used by power companies to try to get around legislation. The restrictions tend to be on type of plant in most cases.



#87 Phil Cowell

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 07:58 AM

California. It is true that outdoor lighting is off peak but then again solar does not work well at night.

Have you seen all those solar powered run all night lights. They charge lipo’s and are a darn pain running all night.

There is non stop ads for the on the Science channel during breaks in Astronomical programming.



#88 WoodyEnd

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 02:32 PM

Have you seen all those solar powered run all night lights. They charge lipo’s and are a darn pain running all night.

There is non stop ads for the on the Science channel during breaks in Astronomical programming.

Hate those.  My wife however loves them. 



#89 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 08:32 PM

Hate those.  My wife however loves them. 

The ones my neighbor has get pretty dim after a couple of hours.  Most like them come from big box stores, and the batteries don't last more than a year or so.



#90 WoodyEnd

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Posted 09 July 2019 - 10:29 PM

When you have a dark site one of these lights might as well be search light.  I have to gather them up or put buckets over them.


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#91 Chris Ryan

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 10:15 PM

Besides having some sensible regulations, enforcement and education, there's likely not much that can be done with LP.  Certainly a tax is not the right approach for the many reasons that have been mentioned so far.

 

As the scientific evidence mounts to show the harmful effects of light (someone posted details earlier in this thread), I'm betting someone will sue.  And eventually someone will win.  When that happens, you'll start seeing legislation slowly being brought in to deal with it, much like smoking laws, etc.  There's almost zero chance that this will be done proactively - it will require people to get sick and die, to drag the special interests that cling to the old ways (for greed, etc) before something will be reluctantly and grudgingly done.


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#92 BYoesle

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 09:00 AM

One of the key regulatory issues is color temperature of outdoor lighting, and where local officials are often steered in the wrong direction by public safety concerns. Educating them about chromatic adaptation - the ability of the brain to render "white as white" under varying conditions will help to relieve these concerns:

 

Chrom Adaptation.jpg


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#93 Rick150

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 04:31 AM

Tax the whole community as they create a temperature gradient in their area creating thermal upwelling of moisture that sometimes encourage refraction from moisture and at worst clouds that reflect the light into my rural area.

 

Seriously though, tax is the worst scourge of a democratic society, for every $3 collected they use $2 to keep the gravy train going.

 

Best way to attack light pollution is pointing out the waste of energy to the 'WOKE' that is going upward and how much CO2 it takes to illuminate the sky for no benefit of the masses. 

 

Being a Radio Ham, don't get me started on electromagnetic pollution, drives me nuts!



#94 jayrome

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 07:44 PM

What **** me off is seeing parking lot lights on during the day. This one time I asked the manager of a grocery store why they couldn't seem to figure out how to turn them off during the day. He didn't know where the problem was. You'd think it would save bigtime on the electricity bill.

Also, I guess tonight in NYC they can see some stars :)



#95 TOMDEY

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Posted Yesterday, 04:08 PM

Do what they (tried to) do with guns (actually bullets)... Make Lights so expensive that people will drastically reduce using them. I'm figuring something like $500 for an average light bulb, and several times that for bigger or fancier ones. Consumers will immediately discover that they just don't need so much lighting! I'm betting the average family would get along just fine, with only two light bulbs. We would then be treated to requests like teen son, "Ummm... Dad, can I borrow the light bulb tonight? I'll have it back home by 9:00?"  Tom




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