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There are some things which aren't meant to be known.

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#1 Otto Piechowski

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 08:30 AM

So, I had Interstellar on and once again heard the character Dr. Mann says "There are some things which aren't meant to be known."  In the story script, Dr. Mann was speaking of the reality within a black hole and what that could tell us if we were able to know it.

 

What scientific things/matters/issues, do you have a suspicion/feeling/thought might forever be  beyond human (sentient) knowledge and comprehension?

 

Otto


Edited by Otto Piechowski, 31 May 2019 - 08:33 AM.


#2 Neptune

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 08:52 AM

The human mind can not comprehend the living God....

 

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything appropriate in its time He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

 

Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable.

 

Isaiah 55:8-9
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.


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#3 wrnchhead

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 08:56 AM

Never understood why they changed Jehovah to LORD in some translations. I guess if they used his name, it makes this particular myth seem the same as the 1,000 other ones. *shrug*

 

Moving along...

 

The thing we don't know fully that I don't know that we will, the source of the strong nuclear force. What makes it work??



#4 Otto Piechowski

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 09:01 AM

My professional background(s) is(are) theology and philosophy.  If you would like, I could offer a couple possible explanations why "Jehovah" was changed to "Lord".

 

Back to the OP of science issues/matters/things; can you say more about why the strong nuclear force might be forever beyond human understanding/comprehension?

 

And, of course, do any of the readers of this thread have other scientific things they/you think/feel are beyond human comprehension/understanding?

 

Otto


Edited by Otto Piechowski, 31 May 2019 - 09:02 AM.


#5 wrnchhead

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 09:09 AM

This is a good thought experiment, thinking of future science capabilities is tough for a human. What seemed like magic 50 years ago is common now. But looking forward we kind of assume we will know things we don't know now, but what will they be? Quarks were not  a thought 100 years ago, but now we know them better. Will the energy/force/matter that holds the nucleus together be something we look back on and laugh at or remain a mystery? 



#6 Otto Piechowski

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 09:27 AM

Let's take a gander at the number/sequence/set called pi (3.14....) as, perhaps, being beyond human knowing/comprehension/understanding.  Let's take an infinite number/set such as pi.

 

My first question, is does a proof exist which proves that pi is/must be infinite?

 

Now, assuming the answer is, "yes, pi, is infinite"...could we say that there are numbers in that sequence which will be forever beyond human knowing?  That is, regardless of how fast our computers become, will there always be numbers of pi which will be beyond further advances in computing?

 

And, thirdly, though I/we can conceive of instructing a computer to give us a printout which shows what the gizzilionith number in the pi sequence is, even though we can look at that sequence of numbers, in what sense do we or do we not know what those numbers are/mean?

 

Otto


Edited by Otto Piechowski, 31 May 2019 - 09:29 AM.

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#7 Migwan

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 09:31 AM

"There are some things which aren't meant to be known."  " Aren't meant"  has an unnecessarily implied meaning.  Would be enough to just say "can't".

 

A little thought experiment;  Try to perceive the supposed singularity of mass prior to the Big Bang without also perceiving some three dimensional space around it.    

 

jd


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#8 Otto Piechowski

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 09:38 AM

Your correct of course, "aren't meant" makes philosophical implications which we should avoid here.  So, sticking to a better articulation, "what scientific things/issues/matters are there which you feel/think can't be known/understood/comprehended?"

 

Otto



#9 petert913

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 09:47 AM

We will never know where the other sock went ....... grin.gif


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#10 earlyriser

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 09:52 AM

How many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop. 


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#11 siriusandthepup

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 09:56 AM

 

We will never know where the other sock went ....... grin.gif

The universal inscrutability.

 

How many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.

Two fine examples that we don't know and reassurance that it's OK that we don't know.



#12 Todd N

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 10:04 AM

The thing we don't know fully that I don't know that we will, the source of the strong nuclear force. What makes it work??

We have, I would say fairly well understanding of the strong nuclear force called 'color charge' in Quantum Chromodynamics. But, will we ultimately be able to understand everything that underlies QCD or anything else for that matter? My guess is probably not.

 

This post touched upon what I was initially thinking about particle physics that we may never have a complete understanding of the "Theory of everything" or even that of the Standard Model based on how this science has progressed. There is a bit of a melancholy attitude in this business knowing that we are in the twilight of high energy particle physics and with the failure of supporting theories like Super Symmetry to materialize.


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#13 mitchellcloud

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 10:15 AM

What it's like to be dead, or to not exist anymore.



#14 Mister T

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 10:35 AM

Obviously, we will never know what we will never know.

well you guys won't, I know everything..


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#15 bobzeq25

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 12:41 PM

Whether or not the Universe is a random result of physics or something more is involved.

 

Dark matter and dark energy are tough nuts to crack.

 

I fear bioengineering humans is something we're not meant to know, but are likely to learn.



#16 llanitedave

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 01:07 PM

So, I had Interstellar on and once again heard the character Dr. Mann says "There are some things which aren't meant to be known."  In the story script, Dr. Mann was speaking of the reality within a black hole and what that could tell us if we were able to know it.

 

What scientific things/matters/issues, do you have a suspicion/feeling/thought might forever be  beyond human (sentient) knowledge and comprehension?

 

Otto

I think it was Ned Flanders who said "There are some thing man wasn't meant to know -- important things!"

 

But I hope he wasn't talking about science.

 

I don't think, however, we are intended to know both the position and the motion of a fundamental particle at the same time.



#17 llanitedave

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 01:09 PM

The human mind can not comprehend the living God....

 

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything appropriate in its time He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

 

Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable.

 

Isaiah 55:8-9
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

I think the original question specifically asked for scientific things.


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#18 earlyriser

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 02:04 PM

The best refractor for the money. 


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#19 Neptune

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 02:07 PM

My professional background(s) is(are) theology and philosophy.  If you would like, I could offer a couple possible explanations why "Jehovah" was changed to "Lord".

 

Back to the OP of science issues/matters/things; can you say more about why the strong nuclear force might be forever beyond human understanding/comprehension?

 

And, of course, do any of the readers of this thread have other scientific things they/you think/feel are beyond human comprehension/understanding?

 

Otto

Otto, being a Mechanical Designer by trade, I was alway in awe of the human body and how the systems work in harmony together, some/most on a molecular level. From my standpoint there has to be a designer, not just a designer but a grand designer.  A few examples that I can't just explain away are, one, the human eye lens being not Spherical, but Aspherical.  two, How does acid that is strong enough to eat away metal yet the stomach can contain it and use it for digestion?  three, How does your brain 'see' an image that is created from wavelengths of light, that get processed by cells and the optic nerve?  The list goes on and on.  


Edited by Neptune, 31 May 2019 - 09:13 PM.

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#20 BillP

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 03:58 PM

What scientific things/matters/issues, do you have a suspicion/feeling/thought might forever be  beyond human (sentient) knowledge and comprehension?

 

I think the vast majority about the universe we live in will never be understood.  Sure we will have many hypotheses and theories and even presumptuous laws, but given our limited abilities in an infinite reality, likely most of what we consider "knowing" cosmologically will be just "naive" meanderings compared to the actual reality.  IMO anyone who believes that the capabilities of the human brain represent the pinnacle of what can be, is naive.  So given that our brains' capabilities are at a place that is just some lower step in a really long ladder of evolutionary possibilities, this also means that our understandings, even today, are limited, incomplete, and childish at best.  Welcome to our box lol.gif


Edited by BillP, 31 May 2019 - 03:58 PM.

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#21 bobzeq25

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 04:05 PM

Let's take a gander at the number/sequence/set called pi (3.14....) as, perhaps, being beyond human knowing/comprehension/understanding.  Let's take an infinite number/set such as pi.

 

My first question, is does a proof exist which proves that pi is/must be infinite?

 

Now, assuming the answer is, "yes, pi, is infinite"...could we say that there are numbers in that sequence which will be forever beyond human knowing?  That is, regardless of how fast our computers become, will there always be numbers of pi which will be beyond further advances in computing?

 

And, thirdly, though I/we can conceive of instructing a computer to give us a printout which shows what the gizzilionith number in the pi sequence is, even though we can look at that sequence of numbers, in what sense do we or do we not know what those numbers are/mean?

 

Otto

I gather from your post that you are referring to an "infinite" number as one which never repeats a pattern.  The mathematical term is an irrational number.  The alternative is a rational number, a number that can be expressed as the ratio of two integers.  Those repeat after a while.

 

Johann Lambert proved in 1760 that pi is irrational.  Since then, there have been many alternative proofs.  Here's what's billed as a "simple" one.

 

https://projecteucli...bams/1183510788

 

Got it?  <grin>

 

Pi has been calculated out to 22 trillion digits.  It's not technically hard, you just need a lot of computer power and a lot of time.  It's just a question of money, not technical issues.  This particular computation took over 3 months on a custom computer with 24 6TB hard drives, running 24 hours a day.

 

https://www.newscien...an-ever-before/


Edited by bobzeq25, 31 May 2019 - 04:09 PM.

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#22 BillP

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 04:10 PM

Your correct of course, "aren't meant" makes philosophical implications which we should avoid here.  So, sticking to a better articulation, "what scientific things/issues/matters are there which you feel/think can't be known/understood/comprehended?"

 

Otto

 

Is it really possible to even answer "what scientific things/issues/matters are there which you feel/think can't be known/understood/comprehended?"  I mean when we come across something which we don't currently know, we automatically assume we will be able to find out, and we trudge and trudge and trudge forward until we do find "something" that fits into someone's theory to correctly explain what we see.  Then we call the issue "known" even though the proposed theory now with observational evidence, may still be quite wrong.  One can look at the dark matter issue as just that, in that we thought we knew about galaxies and their rotations for a long long time, then one day we were able to do some more detailed observations and discovered we had cake on our scientific faces and needed to invent dark matter to resolve the issue and are now off in hopes of finding the dark matter so we can rest at ease.  So my point is that I am challenging whether we are psychologically even able to accept a premise that there are things that we "cannot" know because our egos refuse to accept that we are mentally limited creatures.


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#23 BillP

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 04:18 PM

As a side note, I think the original post about there being things not "meant" to be known is a valid class itself also.  As a culture, society, and human race we should all realize that certain members of the population will exploit things for personal benefit regardless of the outcomes to others or the future.  Than being the case if a closed group of people discovered something new that had a good potential to be alarmingly destructive if misused, then it would be prudent for them to destroy what they discovered.  While true it may eventually be discovered by others, at least there is a chance it will not, whereas if they release the information then potential misuse becomes a reality.


Edited by BillP, 31 May 2019 - 04:18 PM.

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#24 Keith Rivich

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 05:48 PM

The human mind can not comprehend the living God....

 

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything appropriate in its time He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

 

Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth Does not become weary or tired His understanding is inscrutable.

 

Isaiah 55:8-9
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.

I dunno, not be to confrontational, but I tire of all the Pastor's, Preacher's, Priest telling me that's the Lord this the Lord that. If the passage you quote is correct then how could they possible know?


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#25 BillP

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 06:21 PM

I dunno, not be to confrontational, but I tire of all the Pastor's, Preacher's, Priest telling me that's the Lord this the Lord that. If the passage you quote is correct then how could they possible know?

 

I think the answer to that falls into both 1) by definition, and 2) through simple deduction.  If any other entity is either more advanced in nature (think the concept of more evolved extraterrestrials or some evolutionary succession to homo sapiens) or has qualities going to the extremes as being omniscient and omnipotent (think the concept of deities), then by their nature their brains would be more advanced than ours and capable of processing and understanding that our current brains cannot embrace (think how a cat cannot understand quantum physics).  So if either of these premises are true regarding "the Lord", it goes without saying that the lesser capable homo sapiens would never be able to understand the mind of these more advanced creatures the same way the cat or even the more advanced Australopithecus can never understand the mind of a homo sapiens.


Edited by BillP, 31 May 2019 - 06:21 PM.

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