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Need help choosing between a 27panoptic and 22 or 17mm nagler-best one? Thx

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#1 PKDfan

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 06:30 PM

Need your expertise please. Which one of these 2inch EPs is the best optically, they will be used in a SW EVOSTAR 100ED F/9. I'm looking for the best corrected and most immersive view. Thanks a million for your input!

CS and GS

#2 StarryHill

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 06:55 PM

I use both the Panoptic 27mm and the Nagler 22mm. Both very sharp and good. Both would provide a 2° view of the sky on your OTA. No question, though, the Nagler 22mm would be the more immersive/contrasty of the two with its greater 82° afov, greater magnification and better exit pupil on an f/9. I've not used a Nagler 17mm but I'd probably choose it over the 27mm due to the greater afov unless I wanted a wider view of the sky since it would provide only 1.5°. I've owned the 22mm for about 15 years and it's the last eyepiece I would ever consider selling -- it's that good.


Edited by StarryHill, 12 June 2019 - 09:04 PM.

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#3 Migwan

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:25 PM

The 27 Pan is great, but the 22T4 gets the same view at higher power.  Very comfortable EP to use.  I have the 17T4 and it is also very good.    Some have reported trouble holding on to the exit pupil with the 17T4.  Never had that problem myself and wouldn't want to be choosing between the two.   jd


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#4 csrlice12

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 07:53 PM

That other 22mm...the 22 Panoptic...


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#5 PKDfan

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Posted 12 June 2019 - 08:25 PM

Thanks for the early answers all, the 22panoptic is not available and I want a pure 2inch EP. I cannot afford the Ethos at all but can do one eyepiece and want a lifetime purchase. Thanks again

 

CS and GS



#6 nicoledoula

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 12:40 PM

They are all going to be fine at F/9. Most eyepieces will be. 


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#7 Starman1

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 12:56 PM

Need your expertise please. Which one of these 2inch EPs is the best optically, they will be used in a SW EVOSTAR 100ED F/9. I'm looking for the best corrected and most immersive view. Thanks a million for your input!

CS and GS

The 22mm Nagler.

Why?

--higher power.  Better resolution of smaller details, a darker sky background, and a more general use magnification.

--larger field of view.  Not by much, but the 22mm Nagler's true field will be 2% wider.

--better adjustable eyecup.  if you don't wear glasses, the 22mm will be easier to use when the eyecup is pulled up a few clicks.

--better protection from peripheral light.  Due to the eyecup, there will be less interference from peripheral lights or from reflection of peripheral light from the top of the eyepiece.

--more immersive view.  It is hard to describe, but the 22mm Nagler just has an easy-to-use field that seems bigger than 82°.  The 27mm Panoptic seems pinched in comparison.

 

Among the Naglers, a few of them really stood out to me over the years:

--the 31mm because of its field size and immense view.

--the 22mm, which is so comfortable and immersive to use.

--the 16mm, which is fantastically sharp and behaves more like a high-resolution planetary eyepiece.  Also a small format eyepiece.

--the 13mm, which is a near-perfect eyepiece in an unusually small size format.

 

I'm an Ethos man, but if I bought one of these again, it would be the 22mm.


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#8 PKDfan

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 08:40 PM

Thanks Starman1 I think the 22nagler is the way to go. Thankyou for your reply!

CS and GS
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#9 SteveG

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 11:34 PM

FWIW, I had both, and also have a 100 ED refractor. I loved my Pan 27, but when I picked up the N22T4, I sold the Pan. The 22 is my #1 eyepiece.


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#10 buddy ny

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 01:26 AM

I own all 3 , the 27, 22, 17
They are all very good
Without getting to involved. My first thought is the 27mmPan I've had it for years. The 17mm Nag is excellent the 22mm nag outstanding... Very immersive. If I could keep one.id go with the 22 nag
This is all based on 'Wow" factor.Don is spot on in his pro's about the 22.. But I wouldn't sell my 17nag or the Mighty 27 Pan to keep just the 22
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#11 russell23

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:10 AM

I’m in the minority on this but I’ll throw in my data point.  I’ve used all three and prefer the 27mm Pan.  I have not liked any of the T4 Naglers.  I wish I did.  The Pans are excellent.



#12 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:21 AM

I’m in the minority on this but I’ll throw in my data point.  I’ve used all three and prefer the 27mm Pan.  I have not liked any of the T4 Naglers.  I wish I did.  The Pans are excellent.

 

For an F/9 scope, I would choose the 27mm Panoptic because of the 3mm exit pupil.  If the scope were F/5, then the greater magnification of the 22mm would be desirable but at f/9, a low power, wide field needs to provide more than a 2.4mm exit pupil.  

 

I do see that PKDfan has a 38mm AgenaAstro 70 degree but I am assuming that this next eyepiece would get much more use because of it's higher quality and better edge correction.  I had the 26mm Q70, not great even at F/8.3.

 

Jon



#13 Starman1

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 08:37 AM

The 22mm will get more use than a 27 because of the reasons I mentioned and because the 2.4mm exit pupil will be sharper to his vision.

That does not mean, however, that I don't think he should have a lower power, wider field, eyepiece.

Something in the 30-35mm range.  Like, perhaps, a 35mm Panoptic.


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#14 PKDfan

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Posted 14 June 2019 - 10:29 PM

Thanks for everyones input I certainly appreciate it but I am hobbled a bit in economic means so the 35pan is out as the 38agena will do the job even though it wont do it perfectly. The 22nagler will give me just over 40x and a 2 degree field with excellent correction and the 17nag about 50x and a 1.5 degree view as I'm in a badly LP area I do see using the 22Nagler alot. I really wish I could have all three but dont see that happening soon as other accessories are needed i.e. Baader silver diagonal and LP filters. Again thankyou for everyones help!

 

CS and GS


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#15 PKDfan

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 04:11 AM

Hi everyone! There is fair number who favour the 27pan and if they have equal sharpness I'm wondering if when using a narrowband LP filter say an OIII will the brighter exit pupil of the 27pan be beneficial or the greater enhancement of image scale be more important? At the cost of brightness of image?
I would like to get a set of LP filters soon, I know the 38mm Agena will work good but which of the other two will work best?(27pan&22Nag)
I'm a wide field junkie so the 17mm Nagler is put to one side for now.
I gotta think the 82degree field might be the thing to break a possible tie. I think you also need a decent amount of magnification to be able to discerne discrete details. Forty magnification has always seemed to be a breakthrough number to me.

CS & GS

Edited by PKDfan, 15 June 2019 - 04:43 AM.


#16 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 05:31 AM

The 22mm will get more use than a 27 because of the reasons I mentioned and because the 2.4mm exit pupil will be sharper to his vision.

That does not mean, however, that I don't think he should have a lower power, wider field, eyepiece.

Something in the 30-35mm range.  Like, perhaps, a 35mm Panoptic.

 

You might use the 22mm more, I might use the 27mm..  One can always make the argument that higher powers will show more.  The 17mm Nagler provides a 1.9mm exit pupil which would show more under most situations than the 22mm.  

 

My thinking is eyepieces have to be considered in the context of a set rather than as individual eyepieces.  The 35mm Panoptic to a 22 Nagler or 17 Nagler would be nice. The 27mm only makes sense if there is no 38mm or 35mm pan. Since the plan is to use the 38mm 70 degree along with these eyepieces, I would go with the 22mm or maybe the 17mm..  For use with filters under light polluted skies, if one is hoping for the Veil or the Helix, probably the 38mm 70 degree is the best best. 

 

jon

 

Jon

 

Since 


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#17 Starman1

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 09:28 AM

What Jon said.

One of the issues with small refractors is their short focal lengths, which means extremely short focal length eyepieces are needed

to yield high magnifications.

The other is their small sizes, which means you run out of light before the magnifications

To get high powers means using tiny exit pupils.

For example, a 2mm exit pupil on my refractor is 51x, while it's 159x on my dob.

With equally bright images, would you resolve more details in something at 159x or 51x?

So, with smaller scopes, it's always a compromise between brightness and magnification.



#18 REC

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 10:24 AM

I read an old article by Ed Ting or his buddy up there in MA and they said the Nagler 22 is the best eyepiece made ever!


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#19 ascii

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 10:26 AM

I have the same scope, ED 100 mm f/9.  Here's my lineup.

Agena SWA 38 mm 70° (Same as you)
Nagler 22 mm T4
DeLites in 15 mm, 9 mm, 7 mm, and 5 mm

The 22T4 was my one splurge that I got at a really good sale price.  I love it.  waytogo.gif  I don't mind the SWA sitting next to the Nagler.  It is just too good of a bargain for me vs. the long focal length premium eyepieces.  Not perfect by any stretch, but darned good for the money in an f/9 scope.

IMG 0154

 
IMG 0036 (1)


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#20 Richard Whalen

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 10:59 AM

I have all the type 4s, the 17mm being my favorite. I usually go from the 31mm type 5 to the 17mm. My 22mm does not get used much in any of my scopes. The type 4s was designed to be optimzed at 17mm, the 12s and 22mm came after from what Al told me. While the difference in sharpness are very small, under excellent seeing with outstanding optics I could see the difference. I would rate them:

 

1. 17mm

2. 22mm

3. 12mm

 

With the 17 and 22mm being closer than the 12 and 22mm



#21 Starman1

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 12:59 PM

I have all the type 4s, the 17mm being my favorite. I usually go from the 31mm type 5 to the 17mm. My 22mm does not get used much in any of my scopes. The type 4s was designed to be optimized at 17mm, the 12mm and 22mm came after from what Al told me. While the difference in sharpness are very small, under excellent seeing with outstanding optics I could see the difference. I would rate them:

 

1. 17mm

2. 22mm

3. 12mm

 

With the 17 and 22mm being closer than the 12 and 22mm

And I would rate the 17mm below the 22mm because of some optical issues it has that are absent in the 22mm.

In fact, the 17mm and 7mm are my very least favorite Naglers, and I sold both within the first 6 months of owning them.

We both agree on the ranking for the 12mm, though.

As for sequence, I bought them all when they first appeared, and the 22mm was first.

T4s were introduced in 1998, and it was in 1998 I got one of the first 22mm T4s available.

It might have appeared at the same time as the 17mm, though.  I can't be certain.

But I bought the 17mm in 1999.


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#22 RAKing

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 02:40 PM

I would choose the 22T4 over the 27 Pan because in your sky conditions you will get a slightly darker sky with the smaller exit pupil.  This shows up more when there is more LP around and the slightly darker sky works much better for me than any LP filter.  Sorry, but an LP filter is a waste of money in a 100mm refractor, IMHO.

 

Cheers,

 

Ron


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#23 Starman1

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 03:21 PM

I would choose the 22T4 over the 27 Pan because in your sky conditions you will get a slightly darker sky with the smaller exit pupil.  This shows up more when there is more LP around and the slightly darker sky works much better for me than any LP filter.  Sorry, but an LP filter is a waste of money in a 100mm refractor, IMHO.

 

Cheers,

 

Ron

Maybe.  But a narrowband nebula filter is not.  The difference in the appearance of M8, M17, M16, M20, M27, NGC7293, and a host of others in my 4" between

filter/no filter is profound.  The Veil nebula is easily seen one way and barely visible at all the other way.

You did say LP filter, though, which implies a broadband, so I'll basically agree.


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#24 rkelley8493

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Posted 15 June 2019 - 08:34 PM

22 Nagler is one of my favorites. If you want an immersive experience, this eyepiece is a sure ticket. It was one of the first eyepieces to give me that "space walk" feeling. To be honest, it gets more use than my 21 Ethos. Why? Because of its eye relief and viewing comfort. The view seems to float above the eye lens like you're looking at a hologram. It's definitely a tier [or two] above the Panoptic series. 


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#25 buddy ny

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Posted 16 June 2019 - 08:58 PM

Lots of people love their
Ethos & 82° Nagler.
The 22 & 17 Naglers are better (to me) than the 27Pan in general , as others have said.
Out of all my Ep's(26+) only 3 are 82° .
I find that anything over 75° FOV is distracting for me. I love the 27 pan , that EP and I have a long history . there's a Magical quality that I find myself attracted to
Can't put it into words. I think everyone has an EP that has that certain mojo.
Don't let the 82° be the deal breaker. At least I wouldn't. I really don't like " peeking around corners" .. Just my take on preferable FOV's that work for me


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