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Jetstream's affect on Astrophotography

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#1 BobinBend

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 08:39 AM

We all know that wind as low as 10 mph in our neighborhoods can cause the Seeing quality to decrease and causes the tinkling stars that look nice but produce blurry images for astrophotographers. So why doesn't the Jetstream that is continuously over the United States moving at 80 to 100 miles per hour have a more damaging effect on our images then we experience? Also, when we consider the layers of wind currents in our atmosphere above us it's amazing we can see as clearly as we can.

 

Thanks in advance for your answer.

Bob



#2 Mitrovarr

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:39 AM

I was under the impression that if the jetstream is above your position, sharp images are basically impossible.



#3 2ghouls

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 09:51 AM

I was under the impression that if the jetstream is above your position, sharp images are basically impossible.

I think it depends what you mean by sharp images. I live on the east coast of the USA where it seems the jet stream is overhead most nights. Every time I have tried to do high resolution planetary imaging, even with the lucky imaging technique, it has just been a mess, and I don't get good detail. Doing deep sky imaging at 1.6"/px, I think my images come out fine and reasonably sharp (see my astrobin for examples). On a very bad night for seeing, my stars average 5 FWHM, on an average night 3 FWHM, and on a very good night just under 2 FWHM. So maybe the jet stream's effect on imaging is dependent on what image scale we are talking about. What's the expression: "can't beat the seeing"? wink.gif


Edited by 2ghouls, 13 June 2019 - 09:53 AM.


#4 APshooter

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:47 AM

I use this map:  https://earth.nullsc...8.28,39.15,3000

If the jet stream is pink over my location, planetary imaging is a no-go.  If it's blue, the upper winds aloft have died down and high resolution galaxy and planetary imaging are great.



#5 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 10:50 AM

Since I fly in the jetstream all the time, I can provide some personal experiences with it.  First off, it’s not always moving at 80-100 mph.  Sometimes, it can be flowing at only 10 mph and that’s often determined by the season, although occasionally it’s just driven by local conditions.  (It’s only 10 mph over Oregon as I write this.)  The “jet” runs at high altitudes where local geographic features like mountains and valleys have less effect on the flow.  Over the US, the jet runs at altitudes from the high 20’s up to around 45,000’—near the top of the tropopause for mid-latitudes.  Remember that half of the atmosphere lies below 18,000’ so the refractive index of the high altitude air is pretty low, which means that the optical effect of the air up there is a lot less than for lower altitude air.  

 

Most of the time, jet stream flow is laminar and conditions are glass smooth.  If the wind speed transitions through the atmosphere are smoothly varying, you are likely to experience excellent seeing—even if the wind speed is pretty high.  Poor seeing results from turbulence, which is most commonly caused by wind shear conditions.  Wind shear occurs when the wind speed changes rapidly with altitude or position, or when the jet stream changes direction in a “short” distance.  Another, less common condition in the jet called “mountain wave” is the result of vertical waves within the river of air.  The wavelength of mountain wave can be quite long but if it can cause density variations in the air that results in slower variations in seeing, which won’t be serious, but if you see the condition going from worse to better to worse over periods of a few minutes, that’s likely due to mountain wave.

 

You can often judge the effects of the jetstream by looking at high altitude wind charts (https://www.aviation...v/windtemp/plot) to check the speed and “straightness” of the wind barbs.  If the wind is strong and the flow is strongly curved over your site, the seeing is likely to be poor.  You also want to look at the wind speed gradients.  Strong gradients will indicate turbulence and poor seeing.  BTW, this is the same aviation chart that I saw on the computer screens when I visited the LBT observatory.  Pro-astronomers pay attention to this stuff as closely as aviators!

 

In Bend, the Cascades are a big driver of seeing conditions.  Prevailing strong winds between 12-18,000’ out of the west will drive downwind turbulence over Bend and I’ve seen incredibly bad seeing under those conditions.  Interestingly, Bend also gets some absolutely spectacular seeing.  It doesn’t happen often but I’ve also achieved 1.0” arc-sec subs using 20 minute exposures while imaging from the Bend airport.

 

John


Edited by jhayes_tucson, 13 June 2019 - 05:43 PM.


#6 BobinBend

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 11:10 AM

Since I fly in the jetstream all the time, I can provide some personal experiences with it.  First off, it’s not always moving at 80-100 mph.  Sometimes, it can be flowing at only 10 mph and that’s often determined by the season, although occasionally it’s just driven by local conditions.  (It’s only 10 mph over Oregon as I write this.)  The “jet” runs at high altitudes where local geographic features like mountains and valleys have less effect on the flow.  Over the US, the jet runs at altitudes from the high 20’s up to around 45,000’—near the top of the tropopause for mid-latitudes.  Remember that half of the atmosphere lied below 18,000’ so the refractive index of the high altitude air is pretty low, which means that the optical effect of the air up there is a lot less than for lower altitude air.  

 

Most of the time, jet stream flow is laminar and conditions are glass smooth.  If the wind speed transitions through the atmosphere are smoothly varying, you are likely to experience excellent seeing—even if the wind speed is pretty high.  Poor seeing results from turbulence, which is most commonly caused by wind shear conditions.  Wind shear occurs when the wind speed changes rapidly with altitude or position, or when the jet stream changes direction in a “short” distance.  Another, less common condition in the jet called “mountain wave” is the result of vertical waves within the river of air.  The wavelength of mountain wave can be quite long but if it can cause density variations in the air that results in slower variations in seeing, which won’t be serious, but if you see the condition going from worse to better to worse over periods of a few minutes, that’s likely due to mountain wave.

 

You can often judge the effects of the jetstream by looking at high altitude wind charts (https://www.aviation...v/windtemp/plot) to check the speed and “straightness” of the wind barbs.  If the wind is strong and the flow is strongly curved over your site, the seeing is likely to be poor.  You also want to look at the wind speed gradients.  Strong gradients will indicate turbulence and poor seeing.  BTW, this is the same aviation chart that I saw on the computer screens when I visited the LBT observatory.  Pro-astronomers pay attention to this stuff as closely as aviators!

 

In Bend, the Cascades are a big driver of seeing conditions.  Prevailing strong winds between 12-18,000’ out of the west will drive downwind turbulence over Bend and I’ve seen incredibly bad seeing under those conditions.  Interestingly, Bend also gets some absolutely spectacular seeing.  It doesn’t happen often but I’ve also achieved 1.0” arc-sec subs using 20 minute exposures while imaging from the Bend airport.

 

John

John, 

Thanks for your detailed explanation of these jetstreams and their impact to us AP enthusiasts down below. How did you determine that Bend OR currently has a 10 mph wind current? The link to the Aviation Weather website shows our area as gray. Is that from 0-10mph? Thanks for this website link as well.

Bob



#7 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 13 June 2019 - 03:45 PM

Bob,

On the site that I provided, set the altitude to anywhere between FL300 and FL420 using the pulldown.  The barbs on the arrows indicate wind speed.  A flag shows 50 kts, a long tick is 10 kts, and a short tick is 5 kts--just add them up.  This morning, the winds were showing just one long tick at FL420 over most of OR.

 

John




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