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Observing globular clusters with night vision

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#26 Doug Culbertson

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 08:24 AM

Any particular digiscope adapter to recommend? A Google search brings up a confusing and surprisingly large number, some of which seem spotting scope specific.



#27 Gavster

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 08:44 AM

I like my tnvc adapter :). It works very well for me.

Without the release of this adapter, being based in the UK, I don’t think I would got into nv observing. So I am very grateful to Televue and tnvc for coming up with this additional option. But as with most things it’s horses for courses.

I also find having 2 inch filters essential since I use a 55mm plossl and 41mm panoptic so would get vignetting if I used a 1.25 inch filter.

#28 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 09:07 AM

Any particular digiscope adapter to recommend? A Google search brings up a confusing and surprisingly large number, some of which seem spotting scope specific.

I am using the Baader Microstage II

 

DMala used a Novagrade digiscoping adapter on his pvs-7. So if you want to keep using two eyes with a pvs-7 it’s possible.

 

https://www.cloudyni...y-with-a-pvs-7/

 

The Novagrade looks more like the TNVC setup and does not have the “scaffolding” look of the ones like the Baader (see my earlier picture of NVD Micro set over Baader Zoom with the Microstage II)



#29 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 09:09 AM

I like my tnvc adapter smile.gif. It works very well for me.

Without the release of this adapter, being based in the UK, I don’t think I would got into nv observing. So I am very grateful to Televue and tnvc for coming up with this additional option. But as with most things it’s horses for courses.

I also find having 2 inch filters essential since I use a 55mm plossl and 41mm panoptic so would get vignetting if I used a 1.25 inch filter.

You don’t get vignetting using a 1.25” filter on the ENVIS with the Raf camera 1.25” filter adapter when used afocally.



#30 Gavster

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 09:13 AM

You don’t get vignetting using a 1.25” filter on the ENVIS with the Raf camera 1.25” filter adapter when used afocally.

Are you sure? When I use the rafcamera adapter with my 1.25 filters with say my 3x afocal lens because the filter pushes out a bit it does create some noticeable vignetting for me. I also get significant bandshift with narrow ha filters due to the very fast f1.2 speed of the envis/pvs-14 lens. I don’t get this when I put a 2 inch ha filter at the end of the 55mm plossl.


Edited by Gavster, 20 June 2019 - 09:15 AM.


#31 Doug Culbertson

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 09:14 AM

I am using the Baader Microstage II

 

DMala used a Novagrade digiscoping adapter on his pvs-7. So if you want to keep using two eyes with a pvs-7 it’s possible.

 

https://www.cloudyni...y-with-a-pvs-7/

 

The Novagrade looks more like the TNVC setup and does not have the “scaffolding” look of the ones like the Baader (see my earlier picture of NVD Micro set over Baader Zoom with the Microstage II)

Thank, Vondragonnoggin. I like the price of the Baader more than the Novagrade. 



#32 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 09:24 AM

Are you sure? When I use the rafcamera adapter with my 1.25 filters with say my 3x afocal lens because the filter pushes out a bit it does create some noticeable vignetting for me. I also get significant bandshift with narrow ha filters due to the very fast f1.2 speed of the envis/pvs-14 lens. I don’t get this when I put a 2 inch ha filter at the end of the 55mm plossl.

That’s the 3x afocal lens that’s vignetting. Used over an eyepiece it will not vignette

 

the fast ENVIS is going to be fast whether the filter is placed on the Plossl or the ENVIS - it is still before the ENVIS

 

Not sure where you’d be experiencing difference there. Do you mean because the lightcone has changed after going through the Plossl? You are still at F/3.5 with your lightcone hitting the filter on the ENVIS. The filter is seeing the reduced lightcone the afocal placement over the Plossl plus the reducer you use. It’s not behind the ENVIS.

 

I haven’t experienced any difference with 2” filter over my Meade 56mm plossl vs putting it on the ENVIS, but I’ll test again the next time I’m out when it’s clear and I’m using an afocal setup.

 

I do not have 3nm or 5nm in 1.25” to test with. My only 1.25” Ha filters are 7nm and 12nm.

 

I have both 2” 7nm and 1.25” 7nm to test with. I have no 5nm at all and my 3nm is a 2”


Edited by Vondragonnoggin, 20 June 2019 - 09:30 AM.


#33 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 09:34 AM

Thank, Vondragonnoggin. I like the price of the Baader more than the Novagrade. 

I thought Dmala’s setup was really cool though. The Baader uses a 1/4-20 camera mount bolt to attach to my NVD Micro’s 1/4-20 hole. PVS-14’s also have this 1/4-20 hole (I think - don’t have one of those either). Not sure about the Mod 3C as I don’t have one of those. 

 

I don't know if a pvs-7B/D body has a mounting hole. I have the A/C body type. The A/C type does not have a mounting hole as the units were for head mounting on a helmet and the mount is on top of the pvs-7. The Novagrade is the only option for afocally using a pvs-7 besides the TNVC Adapter and the only option of using with an eyepiece that is not a Televue.

 

Edit - just looked up the pvs-14 and it uses a 1/4-20 hole for mounting also. Also the Mod 3 Monocular conversion has a 1/4-20 hole. For Binocular use it uses the Binocular bridge mount but Monocular has the 1/4-20 hole.


Edited by Vondragonnoggin, 20 June 2019 - 09:44 AM.


#34 Gavster

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 09:49 AM

That’s the 3x afocal lens that’s vignetting. Used over an eyepiece it will not vignette

 

the fast ENVIS is going to be fast whether the filter is placed on the Plossl or the ENVIS - it is still before the ENVIS

 

Not sure where you’d be experiencing difference there. Do you mean because the lightcone has changed after going through the Plossl? You are still at F/3.5 with your lightcone hitting the filter on the ENVIS. The filter is seeing the reduced lightcone the afocal placement over the Plossl plus the reducer you use. It’s not behind the ENVIS.

 

I haven’t experienced any difference with 2” filter over my Meade 56mm plossl vs putting it on the ENVIS, but I’ll test again the next time I’m out when it’s clear and I’m using an afocal setup.

 

I do not have 3nm or 5nm in 1.25” to test with. My only 1.25” Ha filters are 7nm and 12nm.

 

I have both 2” 7nm and 1.25” 7nm to test with. I have no 5nm at all and my 3nm is a 2”

Even when operating at just 1x with my nv monoculars I get some vignetting due to the filter glass diameter being smaller than the nv objective and pushed out. Geezergazer put me onto this - to avoid this vignetting I use the rafcamera envis to t2 adapter and then a t2 to 2 inch filter adapter which enables me to use my 2 inch filters on the 1x lens without vignetting. But it is at the margins and depends how much edge vignetting is noticeable for you.

 

Regarding the band shift I think Mike Lockwood’s article explains this well (I agree that my reference to the f1.2 of the envis lens was not correct!)

http://www.loptics.c...ightvision.html

 

The key section is as follows:

 

“This is pretty simple - we just plug our numbers into the third equation above.  I have used filters in the barrel of a 55mm Plossl in my f/2.55 telescope and it works quite well with 6nm narrowband filters.  The telescope uses a Paracorr, so the true f# going through the filter is 2.55 * 1.15 = 2.93, and let's round to 2.9.

Let's find the telescope f# that produces an f/2.9 light cone entering the NVD.  We have:  2.9 =  26 / 55 * TF#, so TF# =  6.13

So, with a telescope faster than f/6.13, it is possible to get a light cone of f/2.9 or faster entering the NVD objective, and when using the 55mm Plossl it could be better to put the filter on the bottom of an eyepiece instead of in front of the objective.”

 

Mike was using a 6nm ha filter. My preference is for 5 or 3nm filters so even more band shift. So I think for me when using scopes of f7 or less with the 55mm plossl or f6 or less with the 41mm panoptic I am better to put the filter on the bottom of the eyepiece.


Edited by Gavster, 20 June 2019 - 09:56 AM.


#35 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 09:51 AM

The Novagrade is more expensive than the Microstage II, but less expensive overall than the TNVC for a pvs-7 because the Novagrade works with any eyepiece and TNVC requires purchase of a Televue. TNVC or Novagrade the only options I can see for a pvs-7.



#36 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 10:01 AM

Even when operating at just 1x with my nv monoculars I get some vignetting due to the filter glass diameter being smaller than the nv objective and pushed out. Geezergazer put me onto this - to avoid this vignetting I use the rafcamera envis to t2 adapter and then a t2 to 2 inch filter adapter which enables me to use my 2 inch filters on the 1x lens without vignetting. But it is at the margins and depends how much edge vignetting is noticeable for you.

 

Regarding the band shift I think Mike Lockwood’s article explains this well (I agree that my reference to the f1.2 of the envis lens was not correct!)

http://www.loptics.c...ightvision.html

 

The key section is as follows:

 

“This is pretty simple - we just plug our numbers into the third equation above.  I have used filters in the barrel of a 55mm Plossl in my f/2.55 telescope and it works quite well with 6nm narrowband filters.  The telescope uses a Paracorr, so the true f# going through the filter is 2.55 * 1.15 = 2.93, and let's round to 2.9.

Let's find the telescope f# that produces an f/2.9 light cone entering the NVD.  We have:  2.9 =  26 / 55 * TF#, so TF# =  6.13

So, with a telescope faster than f/6.13, it is possible to get a light cone of f/2.9 or faster entering the NVD objective, and when using the 55mm Plossl it could be better to put the filter on the bottom of an eyepiece instead of in front of the objective.”

 

Mike was using a 6nm ha filter. My preference is for 5 or 3nm filters so even more band shift. So I think for me when using scopes of f7 or less with the 55mm plossl I am better to put the filter on the bottom of the eyepiece.

You already have a solution that works. Options to explore is for someone that doesn’t already have a solution in place.

 

my 3nm is a 2” and not going to buy a 1.25”. When I get a 5nm it will also be a 2”.

 

Others might not want to buy 2” and might want to stick with1.25” format. I think discussing options to mount afocally is a good thing actually. If someone comes along and already has 2” eyepieces like a Meade 56mm or the Russell 65mm as GeezerGazer showed in his thread - the Novagrade or Baader is possible to use besides the configuration GeezerGazer showed. He said in the thread he tried the 65mm because it had threads where the Russell 56mm did not have threads so he couldn’t try it. Well, he could have tried it with a camera digiscoping adapter or Novagrade adapter.

 

I don’t see limiting people to TNVC/Televue options only as a good thing.

 

If I want to use a 1.25” eyepiece as a afocal base so I can increase magnification through afocal use, I can do this with the Baader adapter easily. It can be done with the Novagrade also. 


Edited by Vondragonnoggin, 20 June 2019 - 10:05 AM.

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#37 Gavster

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 10:06 AM

You already have a solution that works. Options to explore is for someone that doesn’t already have a solution in place.

 

my 3nm is a 2” and not going to buy a 1.25”. When I get a 5nm it will also be a 2”.

 

Others might not want to buy 2” and might want to stick with1.25” format. I think discussing options to mount afocally is a good thing actually. If someone comes along and already has 2” eyepieces like a Meade 56mm or the Russell 65mm as GeezerGazer showed in his thread - the Novagrade or Baader is possible to use besides the configuration GeezerGazer showed. He said in the thread he tried the 65mm because it had threads where the Russell 56mm did not have threads so he couldn’t try it. Well, he could have tried it with a camera digiscoping adapter or Novagrade adapter.

 

I don’t see limiting people to TNVC/Televue options only as a good thing.

 

If I want to use a 1.25” eyepiece as a afocal base so I can increase magnification through afocal use, I can do this with the Baader adapter easily. It can be done with the Novagrade also. 

I agree with you. Both tnvc and digiscope adapters have their pros and cons.


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#38 wcw

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 10:17 AM

I bought me a TNVC adapter
Despite all the comments and laughter
I took it out for a night
T’was simple and light
I just love my TNVC adapter!

 

For my filters I bought me a slider
Though at 2 inches they truly are wider
I tried them out for a night
Found them easy and bright
I just love my 2-inch filters and slider!


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#39 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 10:29 AM

I think just like afocal vs prime, more options = better chances of success. That’s why I use afocal also with prime focus. Some don’t have that option with pvs-14’s or maybe did not know they could use a pvs-7 like this. In the UK there is also a Kite pvs-7 type device I believe, so maybe others will get interested too.

 

Since my introduction to this I’ve been trying to be like Johnny NV-Seed and planting the ideas anywhere I can. I’ll suggest used monoculars with Omni IV or III tubes even, just so people can get started with options and not think it an insurmountable task to save up enough to try this method of observation. Much like the suggestions for people to get into it with a used pvs-7 that others have done.

 

Options for afocal or prime focus also means more telescope choices and more chances a person may already have a telescope that will work with NV.

 

I still suggest EEV p8079hp tubes for people on very restricted budgets. We had a long running DIY Night Vision eyepiece for $200 or less thread that was really getting people to see they could try NV on very limited budgets. EEV Tube is exportable. That’s a lot of people that could potentially start observing for a small budget.



#40 chemisted

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 11:38 AM

You might think I am a bit crazy but I use a different solution for afocal viewing (please forgive me if I have already posted this somewhere - I honestly can't remember).  I leave the Raf camera 1.25" adapter on the front of my ENVIS lens all the time.  I have taken the retaining rings out of an old unused set of 1.25" filters and super-glued them to the top of a number of eyepieces to give me a variety of magnifications for the globular clusters I study with my RC-10.  I have done this with my 22 mm and 19 mm Panoptics and a couple of others.  These retaining rings are big enough to hold the NVD Micro securely but short enough for quick attachment and removal.  I am liking this flexibility and, of course, the price just can't be beat.  The eyepieces are still perfectly OK for visual use on their own and the rings almost look like they belong there.


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#41 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 11:42 AM

You might think I am a bit crazy but I use a different solution for afocal viewing (please forgive me if I have already posted this somewhere - I honestly can't remember).  I leave the Raf camera 1.25" adapter on the front of my ENVIS lens all the time.  I have taken the retaining rings out of an old unused set of 1.25" filters and super-glued them to the top of a number of eyepieces to give me a variety of magnifications for the globular clusters I study with my RC-10.  I have done this with my 22 mm and 19 mm Panoptics and a couple of others.  These retaining rings are big enough to hold the NVD Micro securely but short enough for quick attachment and removal.  I am liking this flexibility and, of course, the price just can't be beat.  The eyepieces are still perfectly OK for visual use on their own and the rings almost look like they belong there.

Nice!

 

More options = better to fit someone’s personal preference.



#42 hoof

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 11:12 AM

Thanks for the idea of a digiscope adapter.  It's an interesting approach, given the price I may get one.

 

The main concern is centering (on the eyepiece) and stoutness.  The TNVC adapter, and the PreciseParts adapter I got for my zoom, are very secure.  It's like the NVD is part of the eyepiece.  No problems holding the NVD, adjusting the gain, pressing my glasses against the NVD for viewing, etc.  The main concern I'd have with the digiscope adapter (especially the swing-away variants) is that any of those things might shift/move the NVD.  On the other hand, with the adapter, you can optimize spacing, which you can't really do with the adapters.

 

As Vondragonnoggin says, more options = better :)



#43 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 22 June 2019 - 01:24 PM

Thanks for the idea of a digiscope adapter.  It's an interesting approach, given the price I may get one.

 

The main concern is centering (on the eyepiece) and stoutness.  The TNVC adapter, and the PreciseParts adapter I got for my zoom, are very secure.  It's like the NVD is part of the eyepiece.  No problems holding the NVD, adjusting the gain, pressing my glasses against the NVD for viewing, etc.  The main concern I'd have with the digiscope adapter (especially the swing-away variants) is that any of those things might shift/move the NVD.  On the other hand, with the adapter, you can optimize spacing, which you can't really do with the adapters.

 

As Vondragonnoggin says, more options = better smile.gif

As I posted earlier - I have never had it move where I didn’t want it to after locking it down.

 

This more for those that haven’t found a solution yet though and maybe don’t want to be locked to buying Televue eyepieces to use with the TNVC Adapter or don’t want an adapter from precise parts to just fit a single eyepiece. Once the NVD is secured, you can unclamp the adapter from a zoom and clamp it to any other eyepiece you want rather easily and if need be, readjust centering easy.


Edited by Vondragonnoggin, 22 June 2019 - 02:32 PM.


#44 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 05:07 PM

I found another option for those wanting to couple an NVD with an ENVIS lens to a Baader Mark III and Mark IV Zoom.

 

This Adapter fits the Baader Zoom after unscrewing the eyecup and converts it to make T2 threads

 

https://agenaastro.c...-hta43-t-2.html

 

This Adapter has female T2 thread on one side and 1.25” male filter threads on the other

 

https://agenaastro.c...apter-t-03.html

 

Using an ENVIS lens with the Raf Camera Adapter for male ENVIS thread to 1.25” filter female thread, the T2 female to 1.25” male thread adapter would thread into the Raf Camera Adapter and the male T2 thread of the Baader Zoom to T2 Adapter would thread in the female side of the T2 to 1.25” adapter. 

 

These three adapters together would couple a Baader Mark III/IV Zoom to an ENVIS lens securely

 

Raf Camera ENVIS to female 1.25” filter thread

 

https://www.rafcamer...s-to-astro-1-25

 

As another option to get some money out of the adapters and if wanting to try some eyepieces with digiscoping capability built in, the GSO Superview 42mm and 30mm Camera Projection eyepieces have male T2 threads on them already and could easily use the female T2 to 1.25” male thread adapter to screw an ENVIS equipped device with Raf Camera ENVIS Adapter to the 30mm and 42mm digiscoping Superview eyepieces. If you didn’t want the 41 Panoptic or 27mm Panoptic and had a pvs-14 or just wanted to try less reduction than a 55mm TV or 56mm Meade in your NVD Micro, Mod 3 or pvs-7 with ENVIS on the c-mount.

 

These are the GSO Camera Projection Superview eyepieces. 

 

42mm - https://agenaastro.c...w-eyepiece.html

 

30mm - https://agenaastro.c...w-eyepiece.html

 

I already have the 42mm version, the ENVIS c-mount lens, the Raf Camera ENVIS Adapter.

 

I would just have to get the T2 female to 1.25” male adapter and I could try out the 42mm coupled to my NVD Micro or pvs-7 with ENVIS screwed on the c-mounts.

 

 


Edited by Vondragonnoggin, 24 June 2019 - 05:23 PM.

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#45 chemisted

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 08:52 AM

I have used the adapter arrangement that  Vondragonnoggin describes with my Baader Hyperion 17mm eyepiece and it works very well indeed.  Both the Hyperion and Morpheus lines have the same threaded top as the zoom.


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#46 Vondragonnoggin

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 11:37 PM

Something I forgot to add if using a GSO 42mm Superview Camera Projection eyepiece - the GSO 42mm and 30mm 2” camera projection eyepieces require an M57 to T thread adapter. GSO makes them and they can be found at Agena Astro

 

https://agenaastro.c...ad-adapter.html

 

then the T thread to c-mount adapter, then Raf ENVIS lens adapter will connect up anything you screw the ENVIS lens on to couple to the 42mm Superview Camera Projection eyepiece. The section with the M57 threads is sliding so it’s a variable height camera projection eyepiece. Set the height from the eyelens and a thumbscrew tightens it down so it stays. That way you can get the perfect spacing between the device with ENVIS and the 42mm Superview.


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