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WinJUPOS myths: timespan & frame-count comparisons: smorgasbord of Jupiter images + Mars!

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#1 Kokatha man

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 05:53 AM

Hah! - what a mouthful of a title! Ignore the hype because not only is it a ploy to get folks to look at our website (one of the main reasons we have it!) but it's also a compliment to Pattie for all the hard work she does in organising & updating the site - when I get around to sending piks & texts that is - & of course she created the whole shebang & has kept it running from the very start! flowerred.gif flowerred.gif flowerred.gif

 

Modesty aside I don't think there's too much hyperbole wink.gif...we were pretty satisfied with Mars during 2018 & Jupiter this year has been kind, despite the preponderance of clouds now...& earlier...even though we were gripped by drought in South Australia until May: we've had some "ringside seats" to the GRS activity & hopefully we can continue to garner more decent images of this particular activity as well as other vistas this apparition...the only negative has been the paucity of Saturn images which we usually take pride in capturing, this mainly due to tiredness from advancing age gramps.gif  which also impacts upon "double-sessions" of planetary imaging...hopefully we'll remedy the Saturn imbalance as time goes on this year - but  we do have a nice panorama of Saturn images spanning 2011 - 2019 at the start of the 2019 page here: http://momilika.net/...urn2019Pics.htm along with a couple of other "passables." wink.gif

 

Mars in 2018 might've looked as if it was going to be disappointing despite its apparent size & elevation when the near-global dust storm struck fairly early in the apparition - it did make the colouration of the images swing somewhat wildly at times due to varying amount of air-borne dust...but besides the seemingly obscuring effects of the dust on well-known features (as well as transforming these aspects) another effect was to pick out hitherto very difficult features such as a plethora of Martian craters - & of course some superb highlighting of the Valles Marineris' multiple canyons' labyrinth by virtue of floor coatings of lighter dust!

 

 

Multiple images of "The Red Planet" including a mono montage of the colour example I'll  post in the next post of this thread...as well as those features mentioned in the preceding paragraph can be viewed in the Mars section here:  http://momilika.net/...ars2018Pics.htm   

 

The 2019 Jupiter images, as mentioned above have attempted to focus on the GRS whenever the weather & seeing cooperated: in our last thread I posted a "thumbnail" animation of a dozen or so images (reversing) of that night's captures...

 

The full-size (capture scale) animation seen only on our website gives a much better depiction, displaying the activity around & preceding the GRS activity well: I deliberately left some noise in these frames because (a) it is not so noticeable in a moving animation & (b) it gives even greater clarity to those areas I mention here; this animation is the 3rd image down on this page: http://momilika.net/...ter2019Pics.htm but there are also other animated images further down this same page. wink.gif

 

Neptune, Uranus have been updated also although only one Uranus image passed muster in 2018 & Neptune was not so kindly treated by the seeing as it was in the halcyon years before then...but we are optimistic about this year! fingerscrossed.gif

 

This year was the first year we managed to capture cloud-banding on Venus...hitherto thinking it was possibly beyond my capabilities with an SCT even though I had seen some fine examples from others: the "key" being the awareness that very low histograms were needed to elicit their frail contrast on such a bright planet. No Venus page has been created as yet but it is "in the pipeline."

 

Coming to the start of this thread's title about "WinJupos myths" I'll use the CN filesize limitations to post a comparison of 4 images from the last successful imaging session on June 12th...the "no integration" stack is those frames used in a single 150 second capture of Jove with the other 3 using various frame numbers from varying consecutive captures - the longest timespan between start of first capture till the end of last capture being 45 minutes 46 seconds utilising 189,202 frames in toto...clearly this duration is no impediment to successful WJ integrations although I am not claiming this to be the "best" image outcome!

 

WinJupos does tend to "act up" as far as the "Automatic AF detection" function is concerned for Jove (or at least it does on my versions after a short time! lol.gif ) such that the AF had to be manually set...this is no impediment obviously & an "LD" or "0.68" was employed for the uber-long integration...but none of this seems to have degraded any of the integrations whatsoever...

 

Regardless, there is all "much of a muchness" between all 4 images - they have all been treated exactly the same except for the final amount of noise reduction after reducing the 3x drizzled stacks down to capture scale...naturally the single stack required more denoise therein...I have my "druthers" but they are all moot considerations.

 

This is an 800x962 pixel image so will need clicking on to see it at the maximum any one screen will allow...as will the following Mars image. (jpgs for file limitations) The image below can be viewed at maximum scale on our website after clicking on the image on the webpage & then clicking on the image that opens up in another tab.

 

WinJUPOS-Comparison-Large_2019-06-12-Square.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Kokatha man, 18 June 2019 - 06:05 AM.

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#2 Kokatha man

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 05:56 AM

Here is the Mars' montage of selected images from our 2018 Mars compendium: as said in the first post there is also a mono equivalent, mainly iR images although there are a couple of r-filter ones amongst them.....viewable along with all the other Mars images from 2018 here: http://momilika.net/...ars2018Pics.htm

 

Hopefully folks will enjoy going through the all images on our website!

 

The images here on CN & many of those on the website are "clickable" meaning left- mouse clicking on an image will display it at a larger scale in another tab - & these images themselves will also enlarge if they are clicked on! wink.gif

 

Mars-2018ApparitionComposite.jpg

 

 


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#3 Merk

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 07:39 AM

Very nice Daryl, seems the difference is marginal, maybe the integration frames allow you more sharpening, but it is difficult to spot.

 

 

Btw did you de-rotate the 150 sec video and then stack? Or only stacked in Autostakkert?



#4 RedLionNJ

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 12:28 PM

 

Btw did you de-rotate the 150 sec video and then stack? Or only stacked in Autostakkert?

I would surmise the latter.  Features over 150 seconds can still be aligned with AutoStakkert. Not sure I'd push it much (if any) more.

 

I'm not aware of Darryl ever making much use of the 'derotate video' feature - you would need incredible seeing to make that work properly.

 

Nice post, Darryl!


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#5 Merk

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 01:26 PM

I would surmise the latter.  Features over 150 seconds can still be aligned with AutoStakkert. Not sure I'd push it much (if any) more.

 

I'm not aware of Darryl ever making much use of the 'derotate video' feature - you would need incredible seeing to make that work properly.

 

Nice post, Darryl!

Well I know people say the autostakkert de-rotates at some degree, but last time I imaged I went from 90 sec to 60 sec subs because I was observing a motion blur in my stacks and I wanted to do a test. My 60sec images don't have that motion blur, so either I am stacking the wrong way in autostakkert (I just use recommended settings and auto align points) or people derote their videos before stacking.



#6 ToxMan

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 04:19 PM

46 minute span

I like it!

#7 Kokatha man

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 08:55 PM

Merk, as Grant said I would never bother with video derotation...an utter waste of time & effort quite frankly! lol.gif

 

Regardless of the state of the seeing it makes no sense whatsoever, although I do acknowledge that for the same reason (the dynamic nature of seeing) it makes no sense to capture for more than "standard times" for each planet when derotating stacks.

 

The preamble to my now very old WinJupos tutorial makes the suggestion that instead of the (say) 3 minutes in toto for mono or colour captures of Jove when derotating stacks you could try 3 minutes per channel - but I never recommend that to anyone because in that overall 9 minute timespan you might find the seeing change quite dramatically & one channel could end up a total loss! frown.gif

 

Most definitely there is something amiss with your AS3! procedure or something else is going on if you cannot get it to successfully stack a 90 second sub...depending upon the image scale of course, there is usually total alignment in a 180" capture but because we've been running a slightly greater scale lately I switched to 150".

 

The simplest thing for me to do is take a "quick & easy" screenshot off the larger WJ comparison image that I mentioned on our website!

 

                                                                                                  Whiskers.png

 

The fine "tendrils" emanating from that GRS-preceding trail of dark matter & circles which I've termed "whiskers" lol.gif...akin to the finest of festoons one often sees in the EZ, would simply not be seen in such clarity if there was the slightest degree of "rotational blurring" or were otherwise compromised in AS!3 - not too many other examples when similarly-scaled by looking anywhere else...so we can't be doing too much wrong with 150" to get that..! lol.gif

 

Thanks for the comments & "Likes" - "yes" Paul...45 minutes is a long span but it does debunk notions that you cannot go that long for integrations! wink.gif

 

Not terribly interested in telling folks "how to suck eggs" lol.gif but for interest's sake (an example very similar is on our website tute pages incidentally) here's the ol' wheel arrangement we have found very capable in AS!3 for a long time now for Jove.

 

                                                                        AutoStakkertMapsWheel.png


Edited by Kokatha man, 18 June 2019 - 08:55 PM.

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#8 Merk

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 08:32 AM

Merk, as Grant said I would never bother with video derotation...an utter waste of time & effort quite frankly! lol.gif

 

Regardless of the state of the seeing it makes no sense whatsoever, although I do acknowledge that for the same reason (the dynamic nature of seeing) it makes no sense to capture for more than "standard times" for each planet when derotating stacks.

 

The preamble to my now very old WinJupos tutorial makes the suggestion that instead of the (say) 3 minutes in toto for mono or colour captures of Jove when derotating stacks you could try 3 minutes per channel - but I never recommend that to anyone because in that overall 9 minute timespan you might find the seeing change quite dramatically & one channel could end up a total loss! frown.gif

 

Most definitely there is something amiss with your AS3! procedure or something else is going on if you cannot get it to successfully stack a 90 second sub...depending upon the image scale of course, there is usually total alignment in a 180" capture but because we've been running a slightly greater scale lately I switched to 150".

 

The simplest thing for me to do is take a "quick & easy" screenshot off the larger WJ comparison image that I mentioned on our website!

 

                                                                                                  attachicon.gif Whiskers.png

 

The fine "tendrils" emanating from that GRS-preceding trail of dark matter & circles which I've termed "whiskers" lol.gif...akin to the finest of festoons one often sees in the EZ, would simply not be seen in such clarity if there was the slightest degree of "rotational blurring" or were otherwise compromised in AS!3 - not too many other examples when similarly-scaled by looking anywhere else...so we can't be doing too much wrong with 150" to get that..! lol.gif

 

Thanks for the comments & "Likes" - "yes" Paul...45 minutes is a long span but it does debunk notions that you cannot go that long for integrations! wink.gif

 

Not terribly interested in telling folks "how to suck eggs" lol.gif but for interest's sake (an example very similar is on our website tute pages incidentally) here's the ol' wheel arrangement we have found very capable in AS!3 for a long time now for Jove.

 

                                                                        attachicon.gif AutoStakkertMapsWheel.png

Thanks Daryl, that is where exactly I spot the motion blur, on those "whiskers"lol.gif. I will do some testing in my autostakkert and put the alignment points like you suggest! Also I am using only 30 align points maybe that is an issue as well.



#9 Kokatha man

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 05:34 PM

...well, at the  risk of being immodest, picking them up is a bit like winning the lottery Merk - I went through a heap of ALPO-Japan images rescaling them on the pages to similar scales to compare them & didn't find one other example exhibiting them in anything more than "blobs" - but that was definitely not from motion blur: I think it'd be much better to concentrate on other aspects to determine such things...that was just the luck of the draw in our images, but it is a real "acid-test" of issues such as "motion blur." ;)


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#10 phileefan

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 08:33 PM

 

 

The preamble to my now very old WinJupos tutorial makes the suggestion that instead of the (say) 3 minutes in toto for mono or colour captures of Jove when derotating stacks you could try 3 minutes per channel - but I never recommend that to anyone because in that overall 9 minute timespan you might find the seeing change quite dramatically & one channel could end up a total loss! frown.gif

 

So wait a minute, you mean to tell me that I should be somewhere around 150 - 180 seconds TOTAL for a rgb set? I've been doing 3 minutes EACH rgb channel this whole time. ( 9 minutes total )  confused1.gif  



#11 John_K

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 09:50 PM

Great images as always Darryl!

 

It has not been a great imaging season so far weather wise in SE Australia i'm afraid. 

 

Having fooled around on a similar basis like you, and tried to find a compromise b/w effort, time, results. I am now content simply to do runs at 90 seconds per channel over about 30-45 minutes, stack and sharpen all, and simply choose the best results and then RGB derotate/combine in WinJupos giving me a RGB with and intergration of 4.5mins.

 

Generally I find that at least two channels will be within the same 4.5 minute run before the seeing changes and might then have another channel that's good from one of my other runs worthwhile.  

 

Then I proceed with processing as normal post WinJupos. 

 

As you and others are suggesting, sure, if you have more de-rotated stacks to combine, you will reduce the noise levels, and be able to sharpen more. But in my experience, for average seeing conditions where the seeing will only by good for short periods, I will be lucky to walk away with simply one good RGB stack to work with. 

 

Clear skies.

 

John K. 



#12 Kokatha man

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 04:56 AM

It's often the case as you describe John - although occassionally you can get lucky...& we're all something akin to "gamblers" in this game! lol.gif

 

The incredibly dynamic nature of seeing is one of the most consistent "wildcards" for sure!

 

Tonight we're sitting in the van with the temperature predicted to hit freezing later tonight...in your state a bit outside of Natimuk to see what Victorian skies might deliver! wink.gif

 

Mick - I am really sorry if anything in my tute mislead you but if you are stacking each individual 150-180 second channel & then using WinJUPOS to derotate/combine them you are okay...but I do recommend running 60 seconds per channel because you do not have to use WJ for combining each group of r-g-b's with the shorter timespan...leaving WJ to handle the "groups" combining when you have combined the individual groups without using it...clear..?!? 

 

There are several approaches - John has articulated another but if you just shoot each r-g-b bracket/group at around 60 seconds each filter you don't run as great a risk of suddenly getting rotten seeing which can occur at any time...good seeing can come & go quite often during a session - and "go" & never return frequently also! frown.gif



#13 phileefan

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 05:11 AM

Darryl,

It's not a matter of you misleading me, it's my interpretation of the information! Not a problem, it's a full time job keeping myself straight. That's why I need to retire....

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
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#14 John_K

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 07:24 AM

Tonight we're sitting in the van with the temperature predicted to hit freezing later tonight...in your state a bit outside of Natimuk to see what Victorian skies might deliver! wink.gif

 

—————————

 

Darryl as I rock climb a lot at Mt Arapiles I have often thought the seeing looks good.

 

I should try and find you one weekend when you are imaging there or meet you at the Nat pub for a beer. 



#15 Kokatha man

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Posted 20 June 2019 - 11:23 AM

...great seeing tonight at Natimuk John! waytogo.gif waytogo.gif waytogo.gif

 

Started of very "in & out" with fleeting moments of really good clarity/detail...& after churning out about 250Gb of this stuff thinking we might've got one or two worth the *&%$#@! cold, the seeing suddenly went right up, along with the steadiness nearing culmination - hoping to get some very nice results out of this tomorrow after we thaw out..! :fingerscrossed: coldday.gif

We came here because the GFS forecast this area would be cloud-free tonight compared to most of lower S.A. & Vic. & it was correct...coupled to lowish winds at all heights all travelling in the same direction it might've paid off! ;)


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