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Baader Hyperion Zoom / Diagonal / Focal Corrector w/ 9.25 Evolution

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#1 djsoul

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 09:12 AM

Dear All,

 

Thanks for admission to the group. I've been lurking the boards heavily over the last few weeks in anticipation of a purchase of a new Celestron SCT 9.25 Evolution.

 

I'm pretty much ready to pull the trigger but just need some help on compatibility and fitment for the above eyepiece combo.

 

I've very keen on the Baader clicklock system and would like to base the back end build around that brand.

 

Here's what I've chosen / need help with:

 

Baader Hyperion Zoom with 2.25x Barlow bundle.

 

I like the convenience of a zoom and I think this will be a great all round starting point until I lean more about what eyepiece combinations and which ones to choose to compliment this choice. I've read about the Televue Powermate as an alternative but I think the all in one solution from Baader will do just fine.

 

2" Diagonal (recommendations welcomed)

 

Here's where I'm a little unsure of which one to choose. I want something that will match the build quality of the Baader Hyperion and not have it handicapped by an inferior diagonal. However, I'd prefer not to spend a fortune for now.

 

Here are my choices so far:

 

  • Celestron 2" Diagonal with XLT Coatings for Schmidt Cassegrain Telescopes 
  • Baader Planetarium 2" Clicklock Mirror Diagonal (Has the Clicklock system but I will be only using the one zoom for now, so not sure if paying the extra over a basic diagonal justifies the cost. However, if it's more compatible and a perfect match, I would purchase it.)
  • Baader Planetarium 2" Zeiss Prism Star Diagonal with BBHS Coatings & 2" ClickLock Eyepiece Clamp (At $540 - I think I would get a nosebleed buying this but is the Zeiss Prism worth the extra cost??)

Here's where I need guidance for the rest of the kit.

 

I would like to add the Celestron f/6.3 Focal Reducer & Corrector and Baader Planetarium 2" Clicklock Clamp for SCT but want to ensure the scope can clear Zenith OK. 

 

Will this all fit or can the selection be improved by alternative choices? Will I clear Zenith with this all packed in?

 

I'd appreciate any ideas so I can get started as my head is about to explode and I don't want to fall at the first hurdle!

 

Thanks!!

 



#2 MikeMiller

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 09:41 AM

I can't recommend the Clicklock SCT adapter and Mirror Diagonal enough. I love to switch eyepieces many times during a session, and this makes it easy and safe.

 

I borrowed a friend's Hyperion Zoom to try on my C8. While I only spent a few minutes with it, I wasn't impressed. The problem is that the AFOV changes from 50º - 68º and I love widefield eyepieces. 

 

It also defeats the purpose of having a 2" diagonal. The Hyperion Zoom is a 1.25" eyepeice that has a 2" adapter; it doesn't take advantage of the wider field you get at 2".

 

But if you were going to have a single eyepiece and rarely swap, this might be a good choice. You could start out without spending the extra on diagonals and ease in to them later. The 40mm Plössl that my C8 came with isn't a bad wide-field eyepiece, even if it lacks the "wow" of 82º and 100º eyepieces.

 

The focal reducer isn't really necessary for visual. At it's price, you could just buy another wide field eyepiece.


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#3 Wouter1981

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 10:06 AM

The SCT 9.25 has a long focal length and with the baader zoom on it's lowest magnification you'll only have about half a degree field. The highest magnification is almost 300x  with a field of view of only 0.25°. With the barlow you'll reach 660x which is a huge magnification and more often than not way to much.

I have the Baader zoom with barlow and use it a lot on my 100mm f5. But on my 100mm f10 I find the field of view to narrow and never use the barlow. And your telescope is more than twice as long.

I see you are new here, but is this telescope your first telescope or do you have former experience? The SCT9.25 is  a rather hefty piece of equipment, both it's price, it's size and it's weight. i would never consider this telescope as a "first" telescope.

 



#4 djsoul

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 10:09 AM

I can't recommend the Clicklock SCT adapter and Mirror Diagonal enough. I love to switch eyepieces many times during a session, and this makes it easy and safe.

 

I borrowed a friend's Hyperion Zoom to try on my C8. While I only spent a few minutes with it, I wasn't impressed. The problem is that the AFOV changes from 50º - 68º and I love widefield eyepieces. 

 

It also defeats the purpose of having a 2" diagonal. The Hyperion Zoom is a 1.25" eyepeice that has a 2" adapter; it doesn't take advantage of the wider field you get at 2".

 

But if you were going to have a single eyepiece and rarely swap, this might be a good choice. You could start out without spending the extra on diagonals and ease in to them later. The 40mm Plössl that my C8 came with isn't a bad wide-field eyepiece, even if it lacks the "wow" of 82º and 100º eyepieces.

 

The focal reducer isn't really necessary for visual. At it's price, you could just buy another wide field eyepiece.

OK thanks.

So Option 1:

 

Keep the zoom but restrict the 2" wider field capability but have entry level ease of use.

 

Option 2

 

Ditch the zoom and go with regular eyepieces. What would be the best selection to work with the Baader 2" mirror diagonal?



#5 djsoul

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 10:20 AM

The SCT 9.25 has a long focal length and with the baader zoom on it's lowest magnification you'll only have about half a degree field. The highest magnification is almost 300x  with a field of view of only 0.25°. With the barlow you'll reach 660x which is a huge magnification and more often than not way to much.

I have the Baader zoom with barlow and use it a lot on my 100mm f5. But on my 100mm f10 I find the field of view to narrow and never use the barlow. And your telescope is more than twice as long.

I see you are new here, but is this telescope your first telescope or do you have former experience? The SCT9.25 is  a rather hefty piece of equipment, both it's price, it's size and it's weight. i would never consider this telescope as a "first" telescope.

So what would you recommend? I also thank you for your concern and evaluation but I don't do half measures and I'm happy to deep dive; I come from a technical background and I'm bit of a rebel when it comes to conformity. I also can't stand inferior equipment and will happily pay for better quality even if it means a steeper learning curve.



#6 crn3371

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 11:07 AM

What I’ve gathered in my research is that if using the 6.3 FR, stick with 1.25” eyepieces, if using 2” eyepieces, no need for the FR. 


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#7 MikeMiller

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 01:07 PM

What would be the best selection to work with the Baader 2" mirror diagonal?

 

Well, this really depends on a lot of subjective things. I am a big fan of very wide fields, my C8 is an EdgeHD with the built in flattener; and I use a non-motorized alt-az mount, so really small fields of view are less comfortable. This also results in me collecting more expensive 82º and 100º eyepieces.

 

The nice thing is the sky is the limit when it comes to eyepieces. :) With the 2" diagonal you are not painting yourself into any corners.

 

I think your scope come with a 40mm and a 17mm plossl. These are perfectly serviceable and should be part of your kit. I would start with two eyepieces, that give you a decent field of view. for big things like open clusters and big nebulae, and a narrower one for globulars, planetary nebulae.

 

I can't recommend specific eyepieces, because my C8 has a shorter focal length, so a C9.25 will get different results. It also greatly depends on how much you want to spend. My favorite is probably the Explore Scientific 18mm 82º. It is a great balance between price, size and magnification.

 

What I do is have a spreadsheet where I punch in all of my gear I own, and gear I am considering buying; giving a list of the magnification and and field of view. This helps me to avoid buying "overlapping" equipment.

 

You should be able to copy this document and edit it for your own gear. From this you can even see that some of my gear combinations would not work, such as small fl eyepeices on the C8.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

 

Even better, you can use an app like Sky Safari or Stellarium and input the gear you are considering. It then draws a circle around the field of view, which you can place over an object in the planetarium to see what field you will get.

 

And, as always, the best advice is to try before you buy. If you can find a club or a public star party, you can peek through a dobsonian, SCT, refractor, etc and see what you want.


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#8 crn3371

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 01:21 PM

Here’s an interesting site, it allows you to input your scope information and it will then list every available eyepiece along with all pertinent specifications. https://eyepieceplanner.com/#/

Also, here’s a good read from our own Starman1 (Don Pensack) on eyepiece selection. https://www.eyepiece...on-1x-2x-3x.htm


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#9 Wouter1981

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 01:45 PM

So what would you recommend? I also thank you for your concern and evaluation but I don't do half measures and I'm happy to deep dive; I come from a technical background and I'm bit of a rebel when it comes to conformity. I also can't stand inferior equipment and will happily pay for better quality even if it means a steeper learning curve.

Well, you obvious are willing to spend a lot of money, so don't worry about quality, you find lots of options. I don't have much experience with big scopes, but if it was my money, I'd rather spend that amount on several things instead of 1 telescope. The sct 9.25 cost here 2700€. So I would buy something like this AND in this order:
1) 10x50 binocular (100€)
2) 120/600 achromat on a alt-az mount as a grab and go (500€)
3) 8 inch goto dobson (1000€)
4) And then I'll still have 1100€ left if I want to try something else like astrophotography, for a small ED travel scope, for a 80mm binocular or for a huge pile of accessories.

For these telescopes the baader zoom is a good eyepiece. I think of it as a combination of several good plossl eyepieces in 1 package. Then you need a good wide eyepiece like a ES 82° 30mm.
For the diagonal : There are a lot of good ones around dielectric 99% reflective for about 100€.

Remember with astronomy equipment there is often a HUGE price difference between "good" equipment and "the best" equipment.

I believe the above would be a great starter set, but of course, it's your money so you choose, different strokes for different people ;-)
But be carefull, there have been a lot of people that bought expensive equipment and after a few weeks stop using it because it's to heavy, or complex or time consuming or....


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#10 markb

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 02:41 PM

I have most of these, and am a very, very, very happy Baader user.

I have Clicklocks for every scope now, and 2-1.25 Clicklock reducers that blow all the others away.

I believe the 9.25 comes with the oversize rear port with an aluminum adapter to the standard SCT 2" thread, like my C11. I would recommend you get the direct thread-on Clicklock for the oversize threads on the rear cell, as it unchokes the baffle exit (at least on the 11 and 14, I assume the same on the 9.25). If you don't get that 30mm 82 degree eyepiece today, you may get it later!

Add the superb Clicklock 2" holder to 1.25 reducer and you are all set to use either.

I have scopes from 76mm to 11 inch and still use 1.25 eyepieces 95% of the time, so you can save initially by staying 1.25 barrel sizes on the eyepieces.

Having a 2" diagonal does not mean you need 2" eyepieces! I use the clicklock reducer all the time in the 2" diagonal with 1.25 eyepieces. When appropriate, the 2" 30mm 82 degree eyepiece (NOTE that the 2" barrel is what limits available fov, the 30mm 82 deg gives maximum fov but at a higher power; more field only comes with 2.7 or 3" barrels! A 20mm 82 degree is also barrel limited for the 1.25 barrel, I see no reason to get a 24mm 82 degree ep in a 2" barrel, but a 100 would make sense).

I use an older but super Vixen 1.25 mirror diagonal, and would recommend the modern Baader Clicklock equipped version, or any high grade mirror consistently recommended by the CN users. I would note that visual brightness difference detection is reportedly limited in our eye-brain system, so I would lend more weight to flatness and image quality than to get 2-4% more throughput. There have been reports of some dielectrics as having flatness compromised in the coating process, not the top brands though.

I have an older 2" Celestron/Baader/Zeiss prism, superb, but I have others that seem as sharp; I break it out when I don't want to second guess myself on maximum sharpness.

I would get the Baader 2" Clicklock mirror now or later, and a Baader or other super quality 1.25 now (the Baader line is complex, and I am not sure of their 1.25 options, see the Baader english site and agena's analysis at https://agenaastro.c...r-diagonal.html .

I use the 1.25 vixen and my 2" (Intes?) mirror diagonals about the same % since the 1.25 fits in my zoom + 3 fixed ep "go" belly bag. The Baader prism weight makes it a 'special occasion' player.

I love the Baader Zoom AND matched barlow. Extremely sharp, acceptable field (even though I am an 82 degree eyepiece guy!) and super convenient. Buy it as a set, it should save a bunch, mine did. It rocks in sharpness with the matched barlow. Don't fret the field! Even when I use my zero friction alt az it is acceptably wide.

I still use single fl eyepieces, but prices for good, 82 deg minimum ones, add up rapidly. Pretty safe to buy Televue used. But read reviews on others carefully. Baader has several well regarded ones, and the set of Q Turret with Baader Genuine Orthos is an overlooked bargain (again, 50ish degrees, sharp, but limited eye relief).

I use my short Nagler - UO Widescan mix in a discontinued Celestron prism or Borg mirror 4 eyepiece turret, so convenient I use the Zoom mostly when travelling to observe. Turrets are great zoom alternatives but $$$ to 'fill'.

Functionally, the turret and Zoom are nearly equivalent, but the 'expensive' Zoom is likely 1/3 the cost of my loaded turret.

The Zoom field is VERY acceptable, and the dual barrel makes it compatible to both diagonal choices, a huge plus. I do use the barlow when doing planets or other high power uses.

The Zoom, like the turret, allows immediate matching of magnification to seeing conditions, NOT to be underestimated in ease of scope use, at least for me. Less accidental jostling of the scope off target as well.

Others have questioned starting with a 9.25, which I have not used. Looking up posts on weight, the tripod is aboug 8 pounds more BUT most comments say it a far better choice than the 8 tripod. An 11, on the other hand is a back breaker, but I love mine. A 9.25 is tempting though!

The ota is 8 pounds or so heavier.

Since the heavier tripod is nearly universally preferred, the weight penalty is not as severe as it might appear, but try to physical wrestle both before finalizing. If you can't, go 9.25. Image scale and brightness are worth it.

I am not a fan of 'beginner' scopes unless the tradeoff is real (dobs are great starters), or you are leveling your kichen table with a stack of extra $100 bills, in which case wanting to upgrade but not being able to afford it won't happen.

Beginners need top equipment, as long as it is user friendly, either an 8 or 9.25 Evolution will serve that need. If the weight is not a problem, I'd stay with the 9.25. This advice comes from wasting money on lesser equipment in 4 hobbies.

The Evolution is easy to use, easy to set up and you should immediately add a inexpensive tablet and the SkySafari Plus or the Celestron app. Just make sure the weight won't stop you from going outside, if so go for the 8.

Edited by markb, 18 June 2019 - 03:08 PM.

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#11 markb

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 02:54 PM

Forgot on the focal reducer.

Yes, get one by all means! Cost isn't a big factor since they are so easy to find used.

I have f5 refractors and the GPS11. At home, I pick the appropriate one to use.

The 11 sees limited use until I complete my move but I carry a Celestron focal reducer in my go pouch to cut the focal ratio to a reasonable figure when I strap it in for a road trip. The backyard light pollution is stunning, and I have yet to be there on nights of limited moon and clear skies, but that big aperture cut down to f6.3 should be great.

#12 djsoul

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 07:23 PM

Thank you both so much for such a thorough and detailed breakdown of options.. I will digest this over the next few days and I'm pleased I'm on the right track the 9.25 + Baader combo!!


Edited by djsoul, 18 June 2019 - 07:23 PM.


#13 djsoul

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Posted 18 June 2019 - 08:00 PM

Also some backstory about myself and why I'm going large on the entry options. Forgive me if I digress..

 

My father passed away in March 2019, but from a very early age he taught me about the Solar System, the Planets and the Universe. From this, I then subsequently gained a lifetime interest in Sci-Fi and Astronomy. We were not close and with him being a devout JW, his beliefs about the creation of the Universe differed greatly to science.  For many, many years he dismissed the "Big Bang" theory and would often stamp books quoting this theory with a dismissive comment. It wasn't until the discovery proving the universe is constantly expanding, did he have to change his mindset about our existence.

 

I am also combining my new venture in seeking out clear, dark skies by entering into the world of camping (the tent kind lol). I've found myself stuck behind a computer screen most of my life (also, my job) and also am wishing to walk away from the toxic world of social media, which I've found to be all too consuming and depressive in today's political climate.

 

I've been to Cherry Springs State park and will be camping on Assateague Beach, MD in July. I fully respect the concept of ramping up to the equipment I'm considering and do not wish to dismiss or disrespect the skill, expertise and knowledge required to master the art. As markb mentions, I just want top quality equipment and have no desire to waste $$$ on trash. Fortunately, I'm also still young and fit enough to lift heavy weights.

After 8 years of a toxic relationship and being lucky enough to walk away from clean break divorce not broke, I now have a few extra bucks in my pocket and just want peace and solitude away from the maddening crowd and the materialistic generation.

 

I seriously can't think of anything better than sleeping under the stars and exploring the night sky's wonders.



#14 Eddgie

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 07:49 AM

I have an alternate that you may not be aware of.

 

I know you like Baader, but the limit to the Baader zoom is the very small true field that it forces on you.   Now that does not mean that I don't think you should get the Baader, but I think it should be a supplemental eyepiece.

 

If what attracts you to the Baader is the convenience, the alternate I am going to provide will cover several bases.

 

Also, the clicklock visual back is not really at all necessary on the Evo 8 unless you are going to mount it on a wedge because there is not much occasion for rotating the diagonal.

 

Anyway, here is my recommendation.   I recommend that you consider a Baader S2 Power Switch diagonal.  This diagonal has two arms that retract into a body on the diagonal and these arms each have a lens in them.  One acts as a reducer (.66x), a setting that allows 1.15x, and one acts as a Barlow (2x).    

 

This allows you to use a standard eyepiece like a 24mm Explore Scientific eyepiece to give you three very useful powers with a far bigger field than you can get with the zoom, and a practical high power setting that is actually a pretty good power for planets on most nights. 

 

Now if you still wanted to use the zoom for higher powers (planets for example) you could, but my bet is that the vast majority of your observing could be accomplished with one eyepiece.

 

The Denk is also available with  the Interlocking Visual Back (IVB).  This allows very easy rotation of the diagonal with a super-secure lockup.  I you don't want to go with the IVB, you could still use the Clicklock, but I have owned the Clicklock and while it is nice if you have to rotate the diagonal, with an Evo mount, there should be very little need to ever have to rotate the diagonal in normal use.

 

https://www.denkmeie...tar-diagonal-s2

 

The only real negative of this setup is that while the Baader is near Parfocal, but with the R2 diagonal, when you change powers, you would have to refocus, but this is pretty quick and easy, and the vastly larger field you get when using a 2" eyepiece is a very powerful incentive to overcome this requirement. 

 

Now I do love the Baader zoom, and I don't use SCTs  or standard eyepieces anymore (I use image intensified eyepieces), but since using a power switch with Binoviewers, I swore that I would never go back to conventional fixed-power configurations. I would skip having a bunch of fixed focal length eyepieces and build my setup around a Power Switch diagonal. I would still own a zoom though, because that is pretty much all I use for planetary observing. 

 

Just an option and I am guessing that it is not one you are familiar with but as much as I love the Baader zoom, the extremely narrow apparent field of view severely limits the low power potential of the scope and can feel claustrophobic when compared to modern wide field eyepieces in all be the higher powers.  A power switch setup elminates the most serious limit of all zoom eyepieces, which is the highly constrained true field and the subjective limit of the looking-through-a-soda-straw apparent field of view in the more commonly used low powers.  

 

Whatever you get, I hope you enjoy your new Evo 9.25.


Edited by Eddgie, 19 June 2019 - 07:51 AM.

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#15 Starman27

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 10:20 AM

I have a Denkmeier Power Switch diagonal. It is a wonderful tool at public star parties and personal observing. It is easy to use and provides significantly different three viewing experiences with out changing an eyepiece. I also have the Badder zoom. I use this mostly personal viewing. Both are fine solutions.


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#16 Astro-Master

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Posted 19 June 2019 - 08:38 PM

I would buy the Baader 8-24mm zoom and forget the barlow for now.   Use the zoom and take notes on what powers you like for what objects.  This will give you an idea for what to buy next.

 

Join an astronomy club in your area, go to a star party or two, make some friends, ask some club members if you could try some of their wide field eyepieces in your new scope.

 

You might find you really like the Baader Morpheus, or Nagler's ,or Ethos or other 100* eyepieces.  The biggest shortcoming of the Baader zoom is the narrow field at the 24 to 16mm.  You will most likely want a 2" 40mm or 31mm wide field eyepiece.

 

Its always nice to be able try out an eyepiece at a star party and then buy with confidence.

You can usually find good used high end eyepieces right here on Cloudy Nights, and save a bundle. 


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