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Pentax XW vs Type 4 Naglers

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#1 Ronofthedead07

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 04:50 PM

Has anyone done a comparison between the Pentax XWs and the Type 4 Naglers? Specifically, has anyone compared the XW 10 to the 12T4 or the XW 20 to the 22T4? I realize there are some obvious differences (like AFOV) but am wondering how the “comfort factor” compares. I currently have the aforementioned T4s and would be using them in an f/7 refractor.



#2 csrlice12

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 05:24 PM

Sold my T4s, still have the XWs.  The 10XW is about as perfect as an eyepiece can get.  I might keep the 22T4 though as the 20XW shows some field curvature in some scopes, but doubtful you'd see any at f7.  My 81mm is at f7.7 and the view is great.  The 12T4 has always been considered the weakest of the bunch.


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#3 bobito

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 05:38 PM

I have the 20mm XW and 22mm T4, both are very comfortable and very sharp.  I'm a big fan of the XWs, but I consider the 22mm T4 among the best eyepiece I've owned.  It is especially good if you wear glasses, just as good as the XWs in eye relief.


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#4 TheFacelessMen

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 05:55 PM

I currently have the 20mm XW Pentax and the 22mm T4 Nagler.  I use both in my CN212, Mewlon 300 and TOA150 refrector and also a mates 18inch Dob who regularly observes with me at a permanent dark site.

 

We both feel that the Pentax provides sharper and better contrast on all targets in all 4 scopes.

 

That being said it is VERY close so there is no much to pick and we also like the extra AFOV of the 22mm T4.

 

I have decided to keep both as the extra AFOV is nice to have for the slight loss in sharpness & contrast.

 

Eye relief is good on both.....but interestingly enough I find adjustment, eye placement and comfort a little better on the T4.

 

If you can afford both I think they are nice to have for the slight differences but if you only want one ....then you'd have to pick based on what's important to you........sharpness and contrast or the extra AFOV and adjustment??


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#5 rkelley8493

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Posted 23 June 2019 - 08:33 PM

I have the 20mm XW and 22mm T4, both are very comfortable and very sharp.  I'm a big fan of the XWs, but I consider the 22mm T4 among the best eyepiece I've owned.  It is especially good if you wear glasses, just as good as the XWs in eye relief.

+1. I haven't compared the similar focal lengths of XW vs Nagler, but the 22T4 is one of my favorites. I like the XWs in focal lengths 10 & under. I never had a need for the higher ones bc of my current roster. I don't wear specs but do prefer/like long eye relief for their viewing comfort. Probably why I favor the 22T4 over the 21 Ethos. 



#6 25585

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 08:15 AM

I have an Orion LHD Long Eye Relief 20mm 80° Lanthanum eyepiece. Comfortable, sharp, 20mm eye relief. 

 

https://www.telescop...?ensembleId=268


Edited by 25585, 24 June 2019 - 08:15 AM.


#7 RAKing

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 09:48 AM

Has anyone done a comparison between the Pentax XWs and the Type 4 Naglers? Specifically, has anyone compared the XW 10 to the 12T4 or the XW 20 to the 22T4? I realize there are some obvious differences (like AFOV) but am wondering how the “comfort factor” compares. I currently have the aforementioned T4s and would be using them in an f/7 refractor.

I have both the XW20 and 22T4 Nagler.  Both work great and the 22T4 is my favorite of the T4 line.  I use the 22T4 in my scopes with the 2-inch diagonal.  I use the XW 20 in my smaller Tak FC-100 with a T-2 diagonal and 1.25-inch ClickLock.

 

The 12T4 and I never got along, so I rate it the lowest of the T4 Naglers.  Apparently, I am not alone because TV discontinued it some time ago.  On the other hand, the XW 10 is considered by quite a few people to be one of the best of the XW series and is also a favorite of mine.  So for my money, there is no comparison here.  YMMV.

 

I used a set of Pentax XW eyepieces for public outreach for many years.  They were simply the most comfortable eyepieces around and many people got to enjoy the stars looking through mine.  They have a good mix of ergonomics (eye relief, light weight, a decent eye guard, and a nice middle of the road 70-degree view) along with their super optics. 

 

Cheers,

 

Ron


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#8 REC

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 12:29 PM

Sold my T4s, still have the XWs.  The 10XW is about as perfect as an eyepiece can get.  I might keep the 22T4 though as the 20XW shows some field curvature in some scopes, but doubtful you'd see any at f7.  My 81mm is at f7.7 and the view is great.  The 12T4 has always been considered the weakest of the bunch.

Hmmm, keep hearing about this magical 10mm XL. Maybe I should sell my ES 11mm and 8.9mm and use the money to buy an 10mm XL???



#9 csrlice12

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 12:41 PM

I'd sell those ESs and buy a 10mm XW in a heartbeat. 


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#10 rkelley8493

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 01:19 PM

Hmmm, keep hearing about this magical 10mm XL. Maybe I should sell my ES 11mm and 8.9mm and use the money to buy an 10mm XL???

XL or XW? The 10 XW is really darn good! I sold mine a few months back to get a 10 Delos, BIG mistake.. Found another one on the classifieds and picked it up for what I had sold it for. It's definitely top tier. The ES 82° is a tier below imho, pretty good, but not really darn good. 


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#11 SteveG

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 02:00 PM

I’ve found that almost any time a 10 XW gives a good or great view, the 7 XW does as well.


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#12 Svalbard

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 02:31 PM

Hmmm, keep hearing about this magical 10mm XL. Maybe I should sell my ES 11mm and 8.9mm and use the money to buy an 10mm XL???

The 10 XW (not the XL) does seem to be the one more often that the others as getting it's highest praise. I have the 10 XW, and I also had a 8.8 ES 82 at the same time - needless to say the XW was in a different league. I sold the 8.8 without a second thought. 


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#13 Ronofthedead07

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 06:20 PM

Thanks for the input. I love my 22T4 so I don’t think it’s going anywhere. I also find the 82 AFOV ideal for low power wide field viewing. At higher powers I find 70-ish to be sufficient.

 

I found a good deal on the XW 10 and XW 7 so hopefully they are as good as the reviews say. They’ll give 71x and 102x magnification, which I can 2x Barlow for 142x and 204x (budget substitutes for the XW 5 and 3.5, haha)

 

I like the 12T4 but it has weird back-focus issues (even with the extension) and tends to black out unless I put the Instajust so far up that I can’t see the entire FOV.


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#14 25585

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Posted 24 June 2019 - 11:00 PM

Hmmm, keep hearing about this magical 10mm XL. Maybe I should sell my ES 11mm and 8.9mm and use the money to buy an 10mm XL???

Wish I could find a 10.5 XL. 

https://www.cloudyni...s-pentax-xw-10/



#15 Ronofthedead07

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 07:28 PM

Well with the XWs I would have something like this:

35 Pan: 20x, 3.1 FOV

22T4: 32x, 2.5 FOV

XW 10: 71x, 1.0 FOV

XW 7: 102x, 0.7 FOV

 

Could either Barlow the XWs for (142/204x) or maybe try and pick up a 3-6 Nagler Zoom for high power stuff (119-238x...pretty much tops out a 4" scope).

I had an NZ in the past...sharp EP, not the best eye relief or AFOV but you really can't beat it in terms of versatility.

 

Also might consider swapping the 35 Pan for something like a 17T4. I have a good amount of light pollution so super long FL eyepieces tend to be a washout most nights.



#16 buddy ny

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 08:36 PM

I own// use the 5, 7, 10mm XW's & the 17 & 22 T4 Naglers.
Both, To me , are the most comfortable ep's I've ever used
It's a tough comparison as the FL's are spread out
I find the XW's to be almost perfect.. sharp field stop ,70°FOV " my " perfect FOV. Sharp clear optically.
The T4' are almost as crisp optically, splitting hairs here .Really easy on the eye WOW factor still there after all these years. Comfy to the max.I've used the 20 XL& the 22 T4 side by side
That's as close as I've compared similar FL's. The 22 Nag out shined the XL in that shoot out (by a hair) years ago. If I Had to keep only 2 of what I own , it would be the 10 XW & the 22 Nag

I think a better comparison would be the XW's.  Vs. Similar FL Delos 

But. That's another thread entirely


Edited by buddy ny, 25 June 2019 - 08:45 PM.

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#17 Tank

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:12 PM

cant really compare no FLs are the same

I do think the 12,17,22 T4s are better than the 14,20 XWs



#18 BillP

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 12:21 PM

I like the 12T4 but it has weird back-focus issues (even with the extension) and tends to black out unless I put the Instajust so far up that I can’t see the entire FOV.

 

I used to have the 12T4 also, and same experience as you.  I definitely did not like the dual skirt and the eye positioning was difficult at times, especially if wanted to take in the entire FOV.  I also had the Radians as my main eyepieces for a few years.  Finally sold them and got the XWs and comparatively I felt like my eyes went to the spa with the XWs.  Way more comfortable than the 12T4 or the Radians or the T6s. 


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#19 jakecru

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 01:51 PM

A 5, 7, 10 XW  and 17, 22 Nagler T4 combo would be very nice. Could throw in a 12.5 Morpheus and have a killer set. 


Edited by jakecru, 26 June 2019 - 01:51 PM.

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#20 25585

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:18 PM

Go up in AFoV and get the 12 and 17 ES92s! 

 

For 80° I have the less heavy Orion LHDs. For me, they have better eye comfort than T4s, and sharp bright views.  


Edited by 25585, 26 June 2019 - 05:19 PM.


#21 Ronofthedead07

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 07:07 PM

Go up in AFoV and get the 12 and 17 ES92s! 

 

For 80° I have the less heavy Orion LHDs. For me, they have better eye comfort than T4s, and sharp bright views.  

I've tried the 17mm ES 92 and I found that 92 degrees is a bit too much field for me. I've also found that I like adjustable eye guards...which ES doesn't do.

The main issue I've had with the other T4s and Delos is the tendency for blackouts to occur. They (at least to me) seem to be finicky about eye placement and I find myself constantly having to adjust. I don't have to do that with the 22T4. I also find my 35mm Panoptic to be very comfortable and the 68 degree field is more than adequate.

 

The Pentax XW 7 and XW 10 arrived today, and so far they seem to be a significant ergonomic upgrade. No blackouts that I can see, and the twist adjustment seems to be well thought out and engineered. I won't get a chance to test them in a scope until tomorrow at the earliest, though...


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#22 Ronofthedead07

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 07:23 PM

I used to have the 12T4 also, and same experience as you.  I definitely did not like the dual skirt and the eye positioning was difficult at times, especially if wanted to take in the entire FOV.  I also had the Radians as my main eyepieces for a few years.  Finally sold them and got the XWs and comparatively I felt like my eyes went to the spa with the XWs.  Way more comfortable than the 12T4 or the Radians or the T6s.

I considered the Radians and DeLites, but the 68-72 AFOV fields seem to hit a happy spot for general observing. I also realized that there were great options outside of Tele Vue (it is easy to get sucked into the "green and black" craze)


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#23 Ronofthedead07

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 07:35 PM

A 5, 7, 10 XW  and 17, 22 Nagler T4 combo would be very nice. Could throw in a 12.5 Morpheus and have a killer set. 

When I had the 17T4, I found myself skipping over it the vast majority of the time, straight to the 12T4. The XW 14 is an ideal focal length but seems to be a mixed bag due to the FC concerns. It seems like it would be okay in a refractor. Honestly, my 35 Pan had some FC in my 80mm f/6 and it didn't really bother me. I'm not really too worried about filling the gap between the 22T4 and XW 10 right now.

 

The XW 5 is definitely next on the list, assuming the 10 and 7 are as good as I'm sure they are...and maybe the 3.5 as well.

 

I appreciate the input!



#24 SteveG

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 09:35 PM

A 5, 7, 10 XW  and 17, 22 Nagler T4 combo would be very nice. Could throw in a 12.5 Morpheus and have a killer set. 

My main set is 3.5, 5, 7, 10 XW's, 12.5 Morpheus, and N22T4. I also love my ES14/100.


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#25 RAKing

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Posted 27 June 2019 - 07:45 AM

When I had the 17T4, I found myself skipping over it the vast majority of the time, straight to the 12T4. The XW 14 is an ideal focal length but seems to be a mixed bag due to the FC concerns. It seems like it would be okay in a refractor. Honestly, my 35 Pan had some FC in my 80mm f/6 and it didn't really bother me. I'm not really too worried about filling the gap between the 22T4 and XW 10 right now.

 

The Pentax XW 14 has received more than its fair share of criticism here on CN over the years and if I had seen the complaints before I tried it, I might never have known how good it is.  But I bought mine before I saw the posts and I have never had any problems with it the past 12 years.  It works fine for me in all of my scopes - refractors, SCTs, and Maks.

 

Like many Field Curvature issues, it depends on your eyes.  Some can adjust better than others and you won't know until you try it for yourself.

 

Cheers,

 

Ron


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