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Takahashi TSA120N

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#76 peleuba

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 07:54 PM

Have you ever seen refractors at these levels with some degree of inferior color correction produce nicer contrast or detail than one with less color?

 

Yes, I have.  My FS152 was not color free - by any stretch - but its the first telescope to show me what 6" of unobstructed aperture can really do.  It would fail Scott's "Vega test" in terms of color correction. But, in times of good seeing, I have seen Galilean disks cross the face of Jupiter with it.  I don't mean the typical shadow transits that are visible in 80mm or less of aperture but, rather, the actual disk of a moon transiting the face of Jupiter.  Now, some will say this is not a big deal, but try doing it with similar or even slightly larger (1 to 2 inches to make up for the CO) reflector or some other APO that's not figured as well.  It cannot be done, believe me, I have tried. 

 

I am not a "Fluorite, or go home" type.  But in this instance - this FS152 was astounding in what it could show.    


Edited by peleuba, 03 September 2019 - 07:56 PM.

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#77 agmoonsolns

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 08:16 PM

"Have you ever seen refractors at these levels with some degree of inferior color correction produce nicer contrast or detail than one with less color?"

 

Heck, yes. How many examples do you want? An exceptionally well-made doublet achromat with a slower focal ratio can be absolutely exceptional on the planets and will blow away many mass-produced ED doublets and triplets of only average quality. A high end fluorite or ED doublet even more so.

 

I used to own a Takahashi FC-125 and while it definitely showed chromatic aberration, it was one of the finest moderately sized planetary instruments of any type I have ever owned. It showed more detail on the planets than a superbly color corrected Astro-Physics 130mm triplet. The AP was terrific and had 5mm more aperture, but the Takahashi had an exceptionally fine, very smooth figure and was just that little bit sharper and higher contrast. There were tiny swirls in Jupiter's clouds we could see with the FC-125 which couldn't be seen in the AP. They were close, but we could all see the Takahashi had the edge.

 

There are many factors involved in determining which scopes will show the most detail, color correction is only one of them.


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#78 gjanke

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Posted 03 September 2019 - 08:25 PM

I am not a "Fluorite, or go home" type.  But in this instance - this FS152 was astounding in what it could show.


Paul,

I have a TSA102 maybe while I am recovering from surgery we can get together and DPAC this scope and see what’s what.

Gerald

#79 Marcus Roman

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 04:59 AM

"Have you ever seen refractors at these levels with some degree of inferior color correction produce nicer contrast or detail than one with less color?"

 

Heck, yes. How many examples do you want? An exceptionally well-made doublet achromat with a slower focal ratio can be absolutely exceptional on the planets and will blow away many mass-produced ED doublets and triplets of only average quality. A high end fluorite or ED doublet even more so.

 

I used to own a Takahashi FC-125 and while it definitely showed chromatic aberration, it was one of the finest moderately sized planetary instruments of any type I have ever owned. It showed more detail on the planets than a superbly color corrected Astro-Physics 130mm triplet. The AP was terrific and had 5mm more aperture, but the Takahashi had an exceptionally fine, very smooth figure and was just that little bit sharper and higher contrast. There were tiny swirls in Jupiter's clouds we could see with the FC-125 which couldn't be seen in the AP. They were close, but we could all see the Takahashi had the edge.

 

There are many factors involved in determining which scopes will show the most detail, color correction is only one of them.

Had same experience comparing my FS102 with my (then sold) TSA102...better geometry and correction in TSA but crisper and more pleasant views in FS102. Just my experience with those two samples...



#80 gjanke

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 06:51 AM

Had same experience comparing my FS102 with my (then sold) TSA102...better geometry and correction in TSA but crisper and more pleasant views in FS102. Just my experience with those two samples...

I had three different FS102s and one TSA102. I would tend to agree with you. Just to my untrained eye the FS did really well ( dare I say, better) on the star doubles but when it came to planets the TSA was the better performer. I am a planet guy for the refractors and that's why I stayed with the TSA, In fact,  had I not missed the boat,  I would have picked up the TSA 120 OPT had used but it was gone by the time I got to it.



#81 bobhen

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 08:22 AM

HERE you go.

 

Bob


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#82 peleuba

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 11:37 AM

I have a TSA102 maybe while I am recovering from surgery we can get together and DPAC this scope and see what’s what.
 

 

 

Hi Gerald - absolutely.  I'd like that.  I am sure your TSA102 is quite good.  I think now, in an available triplet, the TSA102 and TSA120 are tough to beat.  I'd like to get a TSA120 at some point for myself.


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#83 RAKing

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 11:58 AM

Hi Gerald - absolutely.  I'd like that.  I am sure your TSA102 is quite good.  I think now, in an available triplet, the TSA102 and TSA120 are tough to beat.  I'd like to get a TSA120 at some point for myself.

I wish the TSA-102 was still available.  But I think Tak killed it to bring out the new FC-100D series.

 

Ron


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#84 25585

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 03:00 PM

I wish the TSA-102 was still available.  But I think Tak killed it to bring out the new FC-100D series.

 

Ron

I agree. One of the reasons I went for a TSA120. My 120 Equinox doublet is very good, so another, even a Tak, would be less desireable.


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#85 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 04 September 2019 - 07:20 PM

Yes!  Definitely yes.  As I've said I don't see a tiny bit of false color as a "defect" - it's just a way to describe the lens design. 

 

Scott,

Good, so now that we're on the same page and we've established that, I'll get to my point. I can't rely on color curves and draw conclusions about optical quality and contrast. I also can't rely on Strehl ratios or any type of certification and conclude how good a lens will actually perform in the field. I can only rely on the experiences I have learned from evaluating optical systems over the years while comparing them. Color is merely one part of an evaluation. It does not encompass or determine the final outcome regarding visual performance as so many are obviously led to believe. I'm not aiming this at Tak since they are a well established and a proven brand I absolutely love with a passion and you know I have a number of them myself, but color correction and glass types have become the biggest marketing strategy of this refactor era and enthusiasts continually fall for it.

What saddens me most is to see the heart and soul fewer and fewer opticians are able to pour into preparing an absolutely exquisite lens like the 1920's Zeiss refractor Derek Wong has, only to have inexperienced observers look through them and say the saw some color. An enthusiast doesn't need good seeing in order to see some false color, but they certainly do need good seeing if they intend to see and judge the intricate, subtle details and fine contrast of our neighboring worlds. It's so easy to why why companies play the color correction card. It's because that's all today's enthusiasts seem to look at. Certainly we all want nice color, I agree. It's just not that simple. 


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#86 bobhen

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 06:46 AM

Scott,

Good, so now that we're on the same page and we've established that, I'll get to my point. I can't rely on color curves and draw conclusions about optical quality and contrast. I also can't rely on Strehl ratios or any type of certification and conclude how good a lens will actually perform in the field. I can only rely on the experiences I have learned from evaluating optical systems over the years while comparing them. Color is merely one part of an evaluation. It does not encompass or determine the final outcome regarding visual performance as so many are obviously led to believe. I'm not aiming this at Tak since they are a well established and a proven brand I absolutely love with a passion and you know I have a number of them myself, but color correction and glass types have become the biggest marketing strategy of this refactor era and enthusiasts continually fall for it.

What saddens me most is to see the heart and soul fewer and fewer opticians are able to pour into preparing an absolutely exquisite lens like the 1920's Zeiss refractor Derek Wong has, only to have inexperienced observers look through them and say the saw some color. An enthusiast doesn't need good seeing in order to see some false color, but they certainly do need good seeing if they intend to see and judge the intricate, subtle details and fine contrast of our neighboring worlds. It's so easy to why why companies play the color correction card. It's because that's all today's enthusiasts seem to look at. Certainly we all want nice color, I agree. It's just not that simple. 

What you say is absolutely true in general, however…

 

We are talking about Tak triplets versus Tak doublets (TSA vs FS) and if the optical quality were equal then the color curves would indicate the triplet has the better correction and would give the better images because of it.

 

You often hear FS uses say they like the very slight warmish tone versus the cold, cool, clinical tone of the TSA. What they are seeing in the FS is some very very slight residual unfocused light.

 

One must also consider that the TSA 102 and TSA120 are not even fast triplets but have close to or the same FL as do Tak doublets. A mid FL triplet with high quality glass like Tak uses and with a superb polish and figure like the Taks will always best a doublet of the same FL.

 

Of course, for visual use, these differences are slight and usually not as important as other factors.

 

I would suggest that anyone who does not like the TSA’s clinical, cool or cold view, never look through a Mewlon.

 

I thought the FS was color free until I compared it to my TSA.
I thought the TSA was color free until I compared it to my Mewlon.

 

Bob


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#87 gjanke

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 07:19 AM

 

One must also consider that the TSA 102 and TSA120 are not even fast triplets but have close to or the same FL as do Tak doublets. 

 

 

Bob

Bob,

 

Great point and thats why when considering the straight absolution of performance the FS can't compete with the TSA. 

 

Gerald


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#88 StarDust1

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 09:53 AM

 

You often hear FS uses say they like the very slight warmish tone versus the cold, cool, clinical tone of the TSA. What they are seeing in the FS is some very very slight residual unfocused light.

 

I thought the FS was color free until I compared it to my TSA.
I thought the TSA was color free until I compared it to my Mewlon.

 

Bob

I see the warmish tone in the FS-102 as well. I think this has more to do with the applied coatings then the optics. The FC-100D color tone looks more neutral then the FS-102. 



#89 bobhen

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 10:56 AM

I see the warmish tone in the FS-102 as well. I think this has more to do with the applied coatings then the optics. The FC-100D color tone looks more neutral then the FS-102. 

Here are a few quotes from Ed Ting’s comparison between an AP Traveler and a Tak FS 102.

 

NOTE: The Traveler is a very fast F5.9 while the Tak is a mid FL F8. Make the Traveler F8 and the difference would be even more pronounced.

 

“You would expect the Takahashi to excel on planets, but because the Traveler takes high magnification so well, it performs equally well (perhaps even more so, due to its superior color correction.)

 

Also, on the limb of Jupiter, I noticed a tiny touch of false color in the FS102, which seemed independent of the eyepiece used.  This wasn't entirely noticeable until I looked at the Traveler at the same object and at the same magnification.”

 

“Both the FS102 and the Traveler are superb telescopes. The Traveler has a slight edge in color correction.

 

Bob



#90 StarDust1

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 12:05 PM

Bob, I wonder what you think about the color difference.

 

I respect the reviews of Ed Ting's. I have read all his reviews. To me these are personal observations. Even at our local club, everyone has their own opinion from their experience.

 

Each eye is different, to me the sample of the FS-102NSV that I have is color free, though with a little yellow tint as mentioned. The FC-100D is almost color free. The FC-100DL was color free as it gets. After comparing the TSA-102 vs FS-102 and FC-100D vs TSA-120. I'm very happy with the performance of the FS-102 and FC-100D. Between the FS-102 and FC-100D, to me the FS-102NSV is a better scope, it can take higher magnification. 


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#91 edif300

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 12:27 PM

NOTE: The Traveler is a very fast F5.9 while the Tak is a mid FL F8. Make the Traveler F8 and the difference would be even more pronounced.

Bob


I had a chance in the past to check the Traveler. I must say that it is so much mytified. The traveler in question was sent to Rohr and till now its not with the apochromats section but in semi-Apo. Numbers as evidences.

http://r2.astro-fore...tro-physics-usa
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#92 bobhen

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 02:28 PM

Bob, I wonder what you think about the color difference.

 

I respect the reviews of Ed Ting's. I have read all his reviews. To me these are personal observations. Even at our local club, everyone has their own opinion from their experience.

 

Each eye is different, to me the sample of the FS-102NSV that I have is color free, though with a little yellow tint as mentioned. The FC-100D is almost color free. The FC-100DL was color free as it gets. After comparing the TSA-102 vs FS-102 and FC-100D vs TSA-120. I'm very happy with the performance of the FS-102 and FC-100D. Between the FS-102 and FC-100D, to me the FS-102NSV is a better scope, it can take higher magnification. 

Single scope observing reports can be problematic because of conditions and the lack of any comparisons, etc. Side-by-side comparisons are less problematic. Side-by-side comparisons with multiple observes are even better. The Ting review of the Tak FS 152 vs the AP 155 and the Tak 102 vs the Traveler did have multiple observers.

 

Don’t get me wrong, these are all really really great scopes. And as Daniel said, color is just part of the story. For visual, there are other factors that can be "much more important" than color. But if all those other factors are the same or are eliminated and ONLY the color difference remains, that can/might make a difference.

 

Being happy with a scope is also a great thing but that says little about absolute performance. And, of course, sample variation can also play a part.

 

But “if executed to the same equally high standards,” the color crossing charts between a TSA 102 and an FS 102 will tell “part” of the story, again if all other factors are the same.

 

I have not observed with the new 100 series but have observed many times with an FS 102 and FS 128. I have owned a TSA 120 and a Mewlon 210 for many years. I also owned an AP 155 F 7 and 152mm F9 refractor for many years, along with TV, a Vixen Fluorite refractor, and a refractor with a great LZOS 105mm triplet lens and a couple of achromats as well. 

 

Visually they were/are all pretty great. 

 

Bob


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#93 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 06:00 PM

Yes, I have.  My FS152 was not color free - by any stretch - but its the first telescope to show me what 6" of unobstructed aperture can really do.  It would fail Scott's "Vega test" in terms of color correction. But, in times of good seeing, I have seen Galilean disks cross the face of Jupiter with it.  I don't mean the typical shadow transits that are visible in 80mm or less of aperture but, rather, the actual disk of a moon transiting the face of Jupiter.  Now, some will say this is not a big deal, but try doing it with similar or even slightly larger (1 to 2 inches to make up for the CO) reflector or some other APO that's not figured as well.  It cannot be done, believe me, I have tried. 

 

I am not a "Fluorite, or go home" type.  But in this instance - this FS152 was astounding in what it could show.    

Paul,

Thank you for sharing. 



#94 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 06:04 PM

 if the optical quality were equal

And that's the appreciation factor I'm referring to. BTW, I love the TSA's so I'm not barking. 



#95 Daniel Mounsey

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 06:09 PM

At about the same aperture; no.

Sorry to hear that. Maybe if you get an opportunity to compare more scopes, you'll have an opportunity to see it for yourself. 



#96 Auburn80

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 07:27 PM

Sorry to hear that. Maybe if you get an opportunity to compare more scopes, you'll have an opportunity to see it for yourself.

Not sure I follow you. Maybe I misconstrued your earlier statement. What came to mind was a comparison a friend and I made between his FS 152 and my EDF155. His showed a slight bit more CA and did Not best the 155.

So no, a scope with a bit more CA didnt provide the better image.

Maybe you were referring to something like the FS vs a 6-8" dob? Or sct? Or ? If so, then yes of course, the 152 excels; even with its tiny bit of CA.

Edited by Auburn80, 05 September 2019 - 08:02 PM.


#97 gjanke

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 07:39 PM

I respect the reviews of Ed Ting's. I have read all his reviews. To me these are personal observations. Even at our local club, everyone has their own opinion from their experience.

I have been reading Ed Tings reviews for two decades. I appreciate the shear numbers of scopes he has looked through but as you have stated the reality is they are nothing more than personal observations. There is no scientific process applied but I love the prose and in the end its just subjective opinions of apple and oranges.  
 
I don't just love the TSA102. I love taking it to star parties and as my fellow members wait for their optics to cool during our monthly out reach, I have a line of 20 people waiting to look into the depths of space. People marvel at the views, they round their way around to the dobs and the SCTs and make their way back to me for seconds. As one person said to me "looking in these other telescopes is like watching a hot soupy mess" I tell them those scopes are going to crush my telescope in a bit. Four hours later I walk over to the 10 SCT look at the jewel box of M13 and I am amazed. I call out for everyone to come and look but as I turn to beckon others I realize everyone left two hours ago (except for the members of the club). Go Tak

Edited by gjanke, 06 September 2019 - 04:15 AM.

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#98 NC Startrekker

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Posted 10 February 2021 - 10:53 AM

Parallax Rings with Losmandy Universal 14'' Dovetail

What color is the powder coat on them?  Were you able to order them from Parallax finished in that color or did you repaint them?



#99 Paul G

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Posted 10 February 2021 - 03:00 PM

I see the warmish tone in the FS-102 as well. I think this has more to do with the applied coatings then the optics. The FC-100D color tone looks more neutral then the FS-102. 

It's a result of the design, there isn't a single point at which all the blue is in focus, resulting in a slightly yellow or warm tone. It is more pronounced in the FS 128, and even more in the FS 152 because going from the 102 to the 128 to the 152 the focal length scaled up less than the aperture at each step. Still superb scopes by any measure, I loved my 128 and would be quite satisfied with another, the color tone is still very subtle and one's brain color corrects it after just a few seconds and it becomes a non issue unless you have it side by side with another scope.

 

But the TSA design is absolutely top shelf and I'd take it over the FS 102 in a heartbeat.


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#100 SandyHouTex

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Posted 10 February 2021 - 10:42 PM

Here are a few quotes from Ed Ting’s comparison between an AP Traveler and a Tak FS 102.

 

NOTE: The Traveler is a very fast F5.9 while the Tak is a mid FL F8. Make the Traveler F8 and the difference would be even more pronounced.

 

“You would expect the Takahashi to excel on planets, but because the Traveler takes high magnification so well, it performs equally well (perhaps even more so, due to its superior color correction.)

 

Also, on the limb of Jupiter, I noticed a tiny touch of false color in the FS102, which seemed independent of the eyepiece used.  This wasn't entirely noticeable until I looked at the Traveler at the same object and at the same magnification.”

 

“Both the FS102 and the Traveler are superb telescopes. The Traveler has a slight edge in color correction.

 

Bob

It’s important to point out the Traveler is a triplet and the FS-102 is a doublet.  Properly done, a triplet should always do better than a doublet.  That the FS-102 can keep up, is a testament to it’s excellent design.


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