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There may be fundamental flaws with our understanding of the universe ...

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#26 llanitedave

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 06:36 PM

Yeah, several of my closest friends assumed room temperature from lung cancer.  One was a doctor, a gas-passer and respiratory specialist, who smoked like a coal fire power plant.  After I stopped smoking  40 years ago I bugged him to stop right up to ten minutes before he expired.  He was one of the few real geniuses that mixed medicine, music, humor, astronomy and telescope making, and was a pioneer in imaging. I guess my arguments against smoking were not convincing enough.  Now they are all gone, but me.  Why?  

 

I never argue about religion and such, but interested in what people believe.  I can justify hating back holes because no one will ever observe what makes them work, at least from inside one.  That doesn't mean black hole science is wrong or will stop anyone from doing it.   I like steady state because some of it fits what we observe.  I love to study clouds on Mars, but will never go there to see them up close.  Just assume those who taught me about them were not crazy.

I don't normally argue with those (the generic those) people on a day-to-day basis, but sometimes circumstances force my hand.  As a geologist, I've been accused on a number of occasions of various irreligious and blasphemous beliefs, by those who believe that accepting evolution is evil, and teaching it to children should be criminal.  I would have thought people like that were genuinely rare, but in my experience there are more than I would have expected.

 

Teaching falsehoods as fact, for whatever reason, however comforting those falsehoods may be, is with few exceptions ultimately dangerous and destructive to all of us.  I say this as someone who enjoys mythology from many cultures, and finds it often poetic and beautiful.  It can even be useful from the standpoint of finding perspectives and descriptive metaphors for solving problems.  It often encompasses many deep truths.  But it is not, itself, truth.  It's art, and should be accepted as such.  It's not analysis, and it's not fact.

 

We're facing tremendous challenges and dangers in this life, and mythology will not overcome them.  Maybe it can help us be better people.  More than likely not.  But when taken as fact, it leads to denialism of actual facts, the neglect of potential solutions, and tribalism, prejudice, and bigotry instead of the ability to work together to resolve the issues that we all are faced with.

 

And yes, I'm thinking of several current examples of denialism of important facts and the neglect of existential threats, based on nothing more than mythological and tribal virtue-signalling.


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#27 DaveC2042

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 07:31 PM

"No one is suggesting we do understand it all.  If we did, there would be nothing to research, and wouldn't that be boring."

 

Yes. Yes it would, its the mathematical "fix" of dark matter/energy that has no place in particle accelerator artifacts or observational reality that makes it suspect.

 

Robert

But the point is that they are not 'just' 'mathematical fixes' with 'no connection to observational reality'.  Both dark matter and dark energy are specifically motivated by observations that do not fit it with previously accepted theories.

 

Now that being the case, unless you are just going to give up, you have to propose something.  Whatever you propose is going to be mathematical in character, because that is how all physical theories are structured.  Then you go and try to observe further things that your hypothesis implies.

 

At this point, the jury is still out on what dark matter and dark energy actually are, with dark energy much less nailed down than dark matter.  Maybe you don't like any of the current proposals - that's legitimate.  Maybe the current proposals will all turn out to be wrong - that's a real possibility.  But it simply isn't the case that either has no connection with observation.


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#28 EJN

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Posted 31 July 2019 - 07:53 PM

One was a doctor, a gas-passer and respiratory specialist, who smoked like a coal fire power plant.  After I stopped smoking  40 years ago I bugged him to stop right up to ten minutes before he expired.  He was one of the few real geniuses that mixed medicine, music, humor, astronomy and telescope making, and was a pioneer in imaging.

 

Donald Parker?



#29 greenstars3

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 11:16 AM

Dave C while your point of view has validity, the issue with "dark matter/energy" is based on the fact that large mass bends light so this "nonbaryonic" stuff that is to encompass more of the universe than the baryonic should make the Hubble deep field fuzzy instead of sharp, if light can pass through something that can move entire galactic clusters in inexplicable ways then something with Planck mass will also be effected by this much missing gravity. It may be that Einstein was wrong about eather and dark matter/energy is actually spacetime itself?

 

Robert  



#30 Jeff B1

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Posted 01 August 2019 - 12:08 PM

See, lots of questions about current theory.



#31 Jeff B1

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Posted 03 August 2019 - 08:43 AM

Flat Steady State.?



#32 Jim_V

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 10:53 AM

See, lots of questions about current theory.

Which shows we have much to yet learn

Flat Steady State.?

AS above having questions about the model that most fits the observed, does not mean the model is incorrect. Steady state theory has shown to be incorrect against the observable, does this mean the "big bang" is the correct theory, no, it just means we have more to learn. However questions over the "big bang" should not lead one to surmise the "steady state" as the answer.


Edited by Jim_V, 07 August 2019 - 10:54 AM.

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#33 Jeff B1

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 12:38 PM

Well Jim V., Sometimes discussing conventional science thinking gives me a headache so I like to enter abstract thought, such as “steady state” or the like to see if anyone has a realistic counter argument.  Usually, as it is herein, immature posts fill the thread before any sober discussion ensues.  Before the “big bang,” back when I first started learning science, was mainstream thinking.  I just wonder if anyone else even gives it a second thought or even remembers what it is.  Then again, I read posts herein that represent misunderstanding of modern theory.  Oh well, there is more to it than what is popular belief.



#34 EJN

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 07:03 PM

Well Jim V., Sometimes discussing conventional science thinking gives me a headache so I like to enter abstract thought, such as “steady state” or the like to see if anyone has a realistic counter argument.

 

 

Well, in addition to the CMB which I mentioned on page 1, steady state would have a very hard time 

explaining the high-z (redshift) distribution of quasars. One of the underlying assumptions of steady state

is that the universe looks pretty much the same at all places and at all times.

 

Quasars are mostly found with redshifts z > 0.5, with a peak near z = 1.6

All the quasars are far away and long ago. We don't see them nearby, for instance in the local

supercluster. So the universe has appeared to change with time, which violates steady state

but is not only consistent with, but predicted by big bang cosmology.

 

The alternative, that quasars are collapsed stars with an extremely high gravitational redshift, would

put them close enough in our galaxy that they would have detectable proper motions or exhibit parallax.

 

Besides, Hubble images have shown most quasars are embedded in galaxies, they are ultra-active

galactic nuclei. Also the Lyman-alpha forest seen in the spectra of many quasars is strong evidence

they are at cosmological distances.

 

 

Distribution of quasars from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey:

 

count

 

Redshift-distribution-of-the-quasars-A-s

 

                                                                    z (redshift)

 

 

 


Edited by EJN, 07 August 2019 - 10:44 PM.

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#35 Jim_V

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Posted 07 August 2019 - 07:42 PM

Well, in addition to the CMB which I mentioned on page 1, steady state would have a very hard time 

explaining the high-z (redshift) distribution of quasars. One of the underlying assumptions of steady state

is that the universe looks pretty much the same at all places and at all times.

 

Quasars are mostly found with redshifts z > 0.5, with a peak near z = 2. All the quasars are far away and

long ago. We don't see them nearby, for instance in the local supercluster. So the universe has appeared

to change with time, which violates steady state but is not only consistent with, but predicted by

big bang cosmology

Why bother?

 

I am sure you are familiar with the old story, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink.



#36 Jeff B1

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 05:31 AM

Many years ago whilst sitting in the Coude room under the UH88, I was thinking similar thoughts as you describe. Then someone woke me up and gave me a green walk-around bottle of oxygen so I would not babble so much to myself.  You see, up high on a mountain the lack of oxygen makes one think weird abstract thoughts.



#37 CygnuS

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Posted 08 August 2019 - 07:27 PM

  You see, up high on a mountain the lack of oxygen makes one think weird abstract thoughts.

I don't need a mountain for that. I don't even need alcohol or other mind altering drugs. It just comes naturally for me. I guess I was just lucky to be born that way. 



#38 Jeff B1

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 05:10 AM

I don't need a mountain for that. I don't even need alcohol or other mind altering drugs. It just comes naturally for me. I guess I was just lucky to be born that way. 

Hey, when must younger my brain thought abstractly enough.  At nearly 79 I'm lucky to just think.



#39 Jeff B1

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 05:41 AM

Yikes!  lol.gif

 

https://www.express....nomy-space-2019


Edited by Jeff B1, 09 August 2019 - 05:41 AM.


#40 Jeff B1

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 05:44 AM

laugh.gif

 

37846548_944502949066549_2781509739597529088_n.png


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