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Best upgrade ep’s for DOB 14”

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#1 CarrieTN

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 07:17 PM

I am new to this forum.  We purchased a Orion Starquest. 14”.  Focal length: 1650 mm.  356 mm aperature.  f/4.6:  originally we have the set of ep’s we got along with the scope and wanted to look at updating.

we were told to get the Paracorr;  31 Nagler; 17 Ethos;  10 Ethos and possibly 6 or 7 Delos or Naglar. 

other people said to get the Delos.   We have read the info on the Ethos 100FOV and would like to experience, we do not know anyone who has any to try. 

 

Neither of us wear glasses and we have both a 90 degree and straight Orion 9 x 50 with lighted crosshairs

 

Any thoughts?  


Edited by CarrieTN, 14 August 2019 - 05:13 PM.


#2 ShaulaB

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 08:06 PM

Yes, purchase a Paracorr.

 

Please purchase a collimation tool. Some have lasers.There are YouTube videos on collimating a reflector optical tube, or find a local club member who can give good advice. If you don't keep your optics aligned well, stars will resemble sea gulls. Resolution of fine detail on planets will not be possible.

 

It is not necessary to buy all the eyepieces at once. The focal lengths suggested to you (listed in your post), are reasonable, and adding a 20 to 26mm into the mix would not be so bad. The types suggested are expensive, as you might know if you investigated them. There are other brands like ES Explore Scientific which provide similar products at lower prices.

 

Some people really like the 100 degree apparent field of view. Some people hate it. You might be satisfied with a good quality Televue Plossl for one of your choices. Do you need to wear glasses? Make sure you check out something called eye relief in the specifications.

 

Cloudy Nights has a classifieds section. It is ok to sell gear you don't care to use.

 

You did not mention a finder. A right-angle 10x50mm finder would be a good purchase, as would a Telrad. A red dot finder, or a 30mm finder might prove frustrating to use.

 

I would avoid Amazon.


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#3 CrazyPanda

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 08:24 PM

I am new to this forum.  We purchased a Orion Starquest. 14”.  Focal length: 1650 mm.  356 mm aperature.  f/4.6:  originally we have the set of ep’s we got along with the scope and wanted to look at updating.

we were told to get the Paracorr;  31 Nagler; 17 Ethos;  10 Ethos and possibly 6 or 7 Delos or Naglar. 

other people said to get the Delos.   We have read the info on the Ethos 100FOV and would like to experience, we do not know anyone who has any to try. 

 

Any thoughts?  

A good general purpose focal length for that scope would be something like an 8, 9, or 10mm eyepiece.

 

If you have the funds, the 8 Ethos, 10 Ethos, or 9mm Lunt/APM XWA, or 9mm Explore Scientific 100 would be a fantastic general purpose eyepiece for everything from planetary observing (when the atmosphere cooperates), to viewing most DSOs.

M82, M27, M13, M3, M51, and many other similar sized objects look stunning in my 8 Ethos in my 12" F/5 dob and 15" F/4.5 dob.

 

Lean towards the 8 if you want more magnification and a slightly dimmer view, lean towards the 10 if you want less magnification and a slightly brighter view. IMO, the greater magnification is more beneficial for most objects, but it's really a matter of preference.

 

Note that an 8mm or 10mm Delos would work as well, just the view is a bit less immersive.

 

But that focal length range (8 to 10mm) would be where I would start with the upgrades. A good quality wide angle in that focal length range will be extremely versatile.

 

After that, you can decide if you want to go with a lower power wide angle for bigger targets, or go with even more magnification for small targets like planetary nebulae (which can handle mags up to 1,000x in a 14")


Edited by CrazyPanda, 13 August 2019 - 08:27 PM.

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#4 turtle86

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 08:32 PM

Welcome to Cloudy Nights!

 

I also recommend a Paracorr and a set of collimation tools.  Catseye, Astrosystems, and Farpoint all make quality collimation tools.  

 

As for eyepieces, you wouldn’t go wrong with the ones recommended, though I personally would recommend an 8-13-21 Ethos combo.  In any case your wallet will certainly be a bit lighter afterwards.  :lol: The Explore Scientific equivalents aren’t quite as good as the Ethos, but are still excellent performers and are a bit less expensive.  100 degrees may not be for everyone but if you’re curious you might as well try at least one.  The Delos might be a better choice if you observe with glasses as it has more eye relief.


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#5 RubyCruxis

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 09:12 PM

I have the 14 inch Skywatcher dob which is essentially the same optics. I have the 13 and 17mm Ethos and the 13 Ethos is the eyepiece that occupies the focusser the most combined with a coma corrector. It is a fantastically versatile combination with the scope that is great for viewing all DSO’s and has a higher magnification to give a black sky background and great contrast. The 17 Ethos gets used often as well, particularly on nights when the seeing isn’t so good and on extended objects too.


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#6 Kunama

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 11:35 PM

As mentioned by ShaulaB above, consider if the eyepiece will actually work for you especially if you or someone regularly using the scope wear glasses.  The Ethos is a nice eyepiece but it has a claimed 15mm eye relief which in reality is less due to the recessed eye lens.

 

For me they were borderline suitable but I struggled to use the entire field and have sold all my Ethos and now use the Nagler 22mm and the Delos lineup which offer a more useable eye relief.


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#7 cimar

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:14 AM

Hi, I have a similar Dobsonian and use the following eyepiece set:

 

Baader Aspheric 31mm & Delos 17.3mm, 10mm, 6mm, 3.5mm

 

My mirror is really good and I have wonderful observations of small details and faint objects with the 3.5mm, that I would not like to miss.


Edited by cimar, 14 August 2019 - 09:24 AM.


#8 25585

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:32 AM

I am new to this forum.  We purchased a Orion Starquest. 14”.  Focal length: 1650 mm.  356 mm aperature.  f/4.6:  originally we have the set of ep’s we got along with the scope and wanted to look at updating.

we were told to get the Paracorr;  31 Nagler; 17 Ethos;  10 Ethos and possibly 6 or 7 Delos or Naglar. 

other people said to get the Delos.   We have read the info on the Ethos 100FOV and would like to experience, we do not know anyone who has any to try. 

 

Any thoughts?  

Obviously Tele Vue sales oriented advice. 

 

While I agree with a coma corrector, there are other less expensive makes of high quality. Thus forum has a high Tele Vue partisanship, but also there are good reports on eyepieces from Explore Scientific, Pentax XW, Baader Morpheus and others.


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#9 rkelley8493

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 09:36 AM

Hi there, and welcome to Cloudy Nights welcome.gif Sounds like you have good taste! All the eyepieces you mentioned are top shelf. If you can only get just one for now, something in the 13mm-17mm range would be very versatile. But if you can afford them all, looks like you have nicely spaced increments of focal lengths. I like the Ethos for deep sky viewing and the Delos for lunar & planetary viewing. The only Ethos I use primarily for planetary is the 4.7-SX. I also really like the Pentax XW for planetary, lunar, and also deep sky because of their image brightness, sharpness, and neutral color rendition. 

Some other really good hyper-wide fields are the Explore Sci 92° Series 17mm & 12mm. They have huge eye lenses and are very comfortable to use. You can see the full 92° field of view without having to move your head around. Another that seems to get great reviews is the Nikon NAV-HW Series. They have a 102° field of view, and some prefer it over the Ethos. 

Good luck deciding! 


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#10 MitchAlsup

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 11:13 AM

we were told to get the Paracorr;  31 Nagler; 17 Ethos;  10 Ethos and possibly 6 or 7 Delos or Naglar. 

31NT5 is a definite must.

I would do a 21E over the 17E this is a 50% magnification jump from 31NT5

I would do a 13E as this is another 50% jump in magnification from 21E

I could recommend 8E at this point, but instead I recommend 9ES120.

I would also get a 2" 2× PowerMate.


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#11 SeattleScott

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 12:45 PM

I would say your original advice is great if you can afford it, and depending on if you need to observe with glasses. Certainly there are cheaper coma correctors that work great at F4.6 and there are cheaper eyepieces too. You can’t really go wrong with TV especially for ultra wide/hyper wide but there are other competitive models, either similar quality for similar price, or more value oriented like say 90% of the performance for 50% of the price.

A 31 Nagler or 30 ES 82 deg would be great for low power and then jump down to 17 or so. Which 17 depends on if you need glasses and your budget. If you tell us if you wear glasses and what you prefer in terms of buy once, cry once or getting something more value oriented that will perform similar at half the cost, we can provide better guidance.

Scott

#12 25585

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 02:01 PM

+1 for Explore Scientific 92s. 


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#13 CarrieTN

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 02:03 PM

Thanks all.  Neither I or my husband wear glasses, and I agree culminations very important and will look into suggestions. Question which relates to another forum subject I read.  Some people have used very high magnifications for planets with great success.  I do not at this time the ability to magnify 500x or higher.  What have you found to be the highest magnification for planets on a DOB?



#14 CarrieTN

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 02:06 PM

Also because we all have different scopes, could you please state the magnification with the eyepiece that you get on your scope. Again, ours is 14” dob skyquest. f/4.6



#15 rkelley8493

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 03:25 PM

Thanks all.  Neither I or my husband wear glasses, and I agree culminations very important and will look into suggestions. Question which relates to another forum subject I read.  Some people have used very high magnifications for planets with great success.  I do not at this time the ability to magnify 500x or higher.  What have you found to be the highest magnification for planets on a DOB?

Nights are rare when you can use over 400x on the planets, and even on nights when you can, it still depends on which planet you are viewing. Jupiter is really picky when it comes to high magnification, especially this year because it is so low in the sky. I usually don't go any higher than 200x on Jupiter in any of my scopes. 130x-200x have given me the best views. Saturn & Mars can handle high magnification much better. On good, clear nights, the highest I usually go is 360x +/- depending on how steady the air is.

But keep in mind that the highest magnification isn't always the best magnification. A good rule of thumb that I learned recently, an eyepiece focal length that is equal to the scope's f/ratio will give you the "resolving magnification" where the finest details can be seen while keeping an elevated level of contrast. This will also yield a magnification that is equal to the telescope's aperture, 1:1 ratio. For example, in my 10" [254mm] f/5 Dob, a 5mm eyepiece will give me 254x. In my 130mm f/7 refractor, a 7mm eyepiece will give me 130x. Theoretically, the "highest useful" magnification is a 2:1 ratio [2x the aperture in millimeters]. However, the Earth's atmosphere is the biggest limiting factor on anything above 350x [+/-].


Edited by rkelley8493, 14 August 2019 - 03:29 PM.

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#16 turtle86

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 07:26 PM

Thanks all.  Neither I or my husband wear glasses, and I agree culminations very important and will look into suggestions. Question which relates to another forum subject I read.  Some people have used very high magnifications for planets with great success.  I do not at this time the ability to magnify 500x or higher.  What have you found to be the highest magnification for planets on a DOB?

 

One thing to remember is that the the Paracorr will increase the mag by 15%. Another thing to remember is that the “seeing” (the steadiness of the air) where you observe is going to have a much bigger impact on how high you can go than on which brand eyepiece you use.  A humble $40 Plossl on a perfect night will beat an $800 Zeiss Abbe Ortho on a so-so night every time.

 

Theoretically, my 18” can handle 50x per inch or 900x, but that assumes perfect collimation, excellent seeing, and thermal equilibrium with the primary.  I live in Florida, where the seeing is better than most places, and on a few special nights when everything came together, I’ve been able to take the mag to at least 1000x using a high power eyepiece and a Barlow on several occasions over the years.  But that’s not really typical, at least for me.  I do find I can usually go to about 475x with a 4.7 Ethos on planets on many nights here and can occasionally hit 600x with a 3.7 Ethos on better nights.  If I lived under the jet stream or otherwise had typically mediocre seeing I would never attempt to bother with such high mags.  

 

IIRC, Televue recommends not going higher than 300x.  That’s too conservative an estimate for where I live but sounds about right for other places based on what I’ve heard.  I would definitely recommend finding out about the prevalent seeing conditions where you observe before spending a lot of money on a high power eyepiece that may wind up not getting much use.  


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#17 Usquebae

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 07:20 AM

One thing to remember is that the the Paracorr will increase the mag by 15%.

This is a crucial point when planning an eyepiece lineup.  With a TeleVue Paracorr II your scope would effectively have a focal length of 1897.5 and a focal ratio of 5.33.  The magnifications and exit pupils of every prospective eyepiece will be different with the Paracorr in place.  Note that different coma correctors may yield a different magnification increases.  The discontinued Paracorr I, for example, gives a 10% increase.  So you may want to pick a coma corrector first and then plan your eyepieces.


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#18 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 08:45 AM

Obviously Tele Vue sales oriented advice. 

 

While I agree with a coma corrector, there are other less expensive makes of high quality. Thus forum has a high Tele Vue partisanship, but also there are good reports on eyepieces from Explore Scientific, Pentax XW, Baader Morpheus and others.

 

I own several fast Dobs and even a couple of fast refractors. I have a set of TeleVue eyepieces I have built up over the past 20 or so years.  I don't wear glasses at the eyepiece and for what I do, for what I've seen comparing them to others, I think they're the best..

 

But they're expensive and the differences I see between the TeleVue eyepieces and the others are relatively small and require an experienced eye to see. Budget/cost is a big player. A Paracorr 2 plus sufficient TV eyepieces to cover the full range of useful magnifications will cost more than the scope itself.

 

I think there are other viable choices that are more affordable and offer very good performance. My friend Tomykay12 has a set of Explore Scientific 68s and 82s that are very good performers even in a fast scope like the 14 inch Orion.  Such eyepieces did not exist when i was building my initial set. If they had, I very likely would have gone that route as well.

 

Jon


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#19 CarrieTN

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 10:02 AM

Wee have looked at the explorer Scientific, but because I have worked in a company that did a lot of R&D and watched other companies copy and sell cheaper, We try , when we can to support those that invent and innovate.  I have learned a lot from Tele vue and they make a great quality eyepiece which they inspect 100%.  

 

When I called them, Al himself answered the phone and we talked for some time about eyepieces.  After we got off the phone, I called one of his distributors and they tried their best to move to other brands.  They are thinking they are helping me with cost.  When we purchase anything, we only want to do once and get the best we can.  Now with also all of your advice, we will determine the upgrades first buying the paracorr and just order them ourselves online.  Definitely getting a cullimator, probably Farpoint as was mentioned above.

 

Thank you all so much I know I need to at least try an Ethos just for the experience.  Many have said that when using you have to relax and enjoy the experience, not try to see it all at once.  

 

On to the adventure!!


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#20 turtle86

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 11:01 AM

Wee have looked at the explorer Scientific, but because I have worked in a company that did a lot of R&D and watched other companies copy and sell cheaper, We try , when we can to support those that invent and innovate.  I have learned a lot from Tele vue and they make a great quality eyepiece which they inspect 100%.  
 
When I called them, Al himself answered the phone and we talked for some time about eyepieces.  After we got off the phone, I called one of his distributors and they tried their best to move to other brands.  They are thinking they are helping me with cost.  When we purchase anything, we only want to do once and get the best we can.  Now with also all of your advice, we will determine the upgrades first buying the paracorr and just order them ourselves online.  Definitely getting a cullimator, probably Farpoint as was mentioned above.
 
Thank you all so much I know I need to at least try an Ethos just for the experience.  Many have said that when using you have to relax and enjoy the experience, not try to see it all at once.  
 
On to the adventure!!



Great that you got to speak with Al Nagler himself! The Ethos are expensive but worth every penny IMHO. Enjoy the adventure!
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#21 rkelley8493

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 12:27 PM

Wee have looked at the explorer Scientific, but because I have worked in a company that did a lot of R&D and watched other companies copy and sell cheaper, We try , when we can to support those that invent and innovate.  I have learned a lot from Tele vue and they make a great quality eyepiece which they inspect 100%.  

 

When I called them, Al himself answered the phone and we talked for some time about eyepieces.  After we got off the phone, I called one of his distributors and they tried their best to move to other brands.  They are thinking they are helping me with cost.  When we purchase anything, we only want to do once and get the best we can.  Now with also all of your advice, we will determine the upgrades first buying the paracorr and just order them ourselves online.  Definitely getting a cullimator, probably Farpoint as was mentioned above.

 

Thank you all so much I know I need to at least try an Ethos just for the experience.  Many have said that when using you have to relax and enjoy the experience, not try to see it all at once.  

 

On to the adventure!!

Nice! There are quite a few imitators of the TeleVue Ethos, and some are almost as good [e.g. ES 14/100°] but not the original. There are some other companies with their flag ship eyepieces that are pretty innovative. The Explore Sci 92° are the best ES has to offer, and they're pretty much the only hyper-wides that feature long eye relief. The TeleVue Apollo will be a competitor on the market soon . The Pentax XW's are also O-G's [original gangsters] and were out before the TeleVue Delos. I wouldn't say the Delos is an imitator of the XW though, but they do share very similar characteristics. 

Anyhow, you can't go wrong with any of these or the ones you mentioned. There aren't any "upgrades" when you buy top shelf equipment.


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#22 25585

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 04:00 PM

Also because we all have different scopes, could you please state the magnification with the eyepiece that you get on your scope. Again, ours is 14” dob skyquest. f/4.6

If you go to astronomy.tools it will give you an idea of any eyepiece for yiur scope, especially field of view.

 

Manual tracking, I find a challenge over 150x. GOTO tracking accuracy is a good question for the Mounts or Reflectors forum.

 

For either at high magnification, the wider field, the better.



#23 CarrieTN

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 04:14 PM

Yes, we do use astronomy.tools. Very good site.  our telescope is a Goto and does track somewhat...  from looking at astronomy.tools.  I get the idea that tracking would be easier with a wider degree of field at a higher mag.   But until I spend the money and get the EP I won’t see the actual vs the theoretical!!!

 

 I have read this site before and found it to be so helpful, and finally signed up.  Great site with so much knowledge from people who really go out there and explore this great universe!

 

ps I still not sure how to answer a individual on this post.


Edited by CarrieTN, 15 August 2019 - 04:15 PM.

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#24 John Huntley

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 05:56 PM

My dob is a 12 inch F/5.3 so nearly the same focal length as your 14 inch.

 

I don't find that I need a coma corrector with my F/5.3 scope but I agree that you will benefit from one with your F/4.6 especially if you use ultra / hyper wide eyepieces with it.

 

For my dob, the eyepiece set that I have built up after quite a few years of trying different eyepieces is:

 

Nagler 31mm

Ethos 21mm, 13mm, 8mm and 6mm

Pentax XW 5mm and 3.5mm

 

In working my way to this eyepiece set for the dob I have owned and used many other eyepieces including other brands 100 degree eyepieces and a few other Tele Vue Naglers and Ethos as well.

 

Of the above eyepieces, the 21mm - 6mm Ethos set handle 80%-90% of the observing situations. The other eyepieces work exceptionally well too but are not used quite as much with the 12 inch scope.

 

There are lower cost options than Tele Vue and a couple of more expensive ones as well. I feel very comfortable and satisfied with the Tele Vue brand though and I'm happy to pay a little more to own them smile.gif



#25 CarrieTN

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 06:18 PM

By the way, another thing Al Naglar told me was to get the Paracor but not the Barlow or the powermate.  He said just get the eyepieces with the magnification you want ( while looking at FOV).  I found that interesting, but since I haven’t handled one of these “large” EP’s. I wonder how high up the stack would be and hard on the balance of the scope.  I would probably need a higher stool!   Lol 

 

so so when or if I want a powermate, I will wait and see.  


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