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Future cameras coming to the market?

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24 replies to this topic

#1 DynamicUniverse

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 06:50 AM

I'm playing with the idea of getting a new camera mostly for deepsky.  I sort of could care less right now if it would be mono or color.  However, every time I've purchased a camera, the next best thing hits the market.  Had I waited, the newest model would "have fit the bill" better than my purchase.  I've searched around here but can't find any good threads talking about what that "next best thing" would be.  I understand the risk of buying a new model that hasn't been thoroughly tested by other users, but what are we really in store for of what would be the next models of relatively affordable cameras and how soon?

 

Thanks,

Chris



#2 Konihlav

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 07:16 AM

not much to come and - in the relatively affordable - cameras even nothing... zero news, no revolution on the horizon... there will hopefully be a revolution in the large chip camera market, say within 1 year.

 

the cheapest (best bang for buck) and still very good in performance are and will be the PANA34320 or IMX183 chip based cameras like (in the mono World) ZWO ASI1600MM and ZWO ASI183MM... these are safe bets now...

 

BTW there were recently some announcement from SX, but I have no information about their cameras if they exist already or are still on paper... but these are everything but cheap.



#3 Tapio

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 07:21 AM

Well, waiting for 'next best thing' is a never ending battle which you can't win.

Like Konihlav wrote these cmos cameras are the best and very price efficient.

Even bigger chip cameras, like IMX455 based, but unless you are willing to spend +$5000 then they might not be your choice.


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#4 Ian Robinson

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 07:22 AM

I'm hanging out for canon 90D or the next version of the 7D ( 8D ?)

 

Not holding my breath as there have been rumours about the 90D for nearly 2 years now and it's still a no show.



#5 WadeH237

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 07:59 AM

However, every time I've purchased a camera, the next best thing hits the market. 

You can't beat this.

 

In a market where the technology is evolving rapidly, like CMOS cameras, the changes are constant.  Even if you could predict what's coming out next month to make your decision, there will still be something better that comes out right after it.

 

The best strategy is to thoroughly understand your requirements, and then buy something that meets them.  Whatever it is you get won't stop working when something newer comes out.  If you can avoid latest-and-greatest-itis, then you'll be set even if something shinier comes out tomorrow.


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#6 sg6

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 08:20 AM

For our application - remembering that they do not make sensors specifically for AP, we sort of make use of what is available, I would say the stuff we want are: No micro lens to upset the image, and CMOS amps that were "passive" as in did not produce any "amp glow".

 

Sure I read of sensors that were predicted to be micro-lens free, eCMOS or something - just recall the "e" as the start bit.

 

Not heard of low noise amps in CMOS chips, but someone is likely working along that line. We cannot be the only people that find amp glow a problem. Also the glow is I assume thermal and so produces noise. Noise in an optical sensor is best avoided so as said expect someone somewhere is working on such.

 

So at a guess the absense of the micro lens may appear, but low or zero noise CMOS amps probably further along the time line.



#7 petert913

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 08:47 AM

 

there will hopefully be a revolution in the large chip camera market, say within 1 year.

I just saw that QHY is coming out with a full frame monochrome sensor.   The 600 or something like that.  Looks fantastic.  I'm sure it is pricey.

 

Sorry to divert the conversation.....



#8 OleCuss

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:27 AM

Given that you appear most likely to image with the C11 or 90mm Apo, get the ASI971MC Pro (or equivalent) and don't look back.

 

Your image circle and sensor should be fairly well matched for most imaging purposes and it has good SNR with little in the way of amp glow issues.

 

I really just don't see anything much better which is likely to appear in the reasonably near future.

 

I have the ASI071 and think it performs well.  I'll likely not replace it for a long time to go.

 

I also have the ASI183MM Pro and tomorrow my OSC version (uncooled) should arrive.  Great if your image circle is small.  Doesn't have the dynamic range of the ASI071.  My OSC ASI183 will be devoted to Observational AP with the Night Owl reducer/corrector and should  be very well suited for that particular use.

 

Lots of options but I don't see anything revolutionary coming up.



#9 Coconuts

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:11 PM

While they will be pricey, I am looking forward to the two cooled Sony IMX455 based CMOS cameras that should arrive before the end of the year from ZWO and QHYCCD (ASI6200 and QHY600, respectively).  Full frame, mono and OSC, 16 bit A:D converter, 50k e- full wells, back illuminated (so high QE), 60 Mpixels, read noise 1-2 e-, 3.76 um square pixels, ultra low dark current, taken together, that feels more than a little bit revolutionary.

 

QHYCCD has a page up on theirs: https://www.qhyccd.c...&catid=94&id=55

 

I'm pretty sure that the 2X2 and 3X3 binning claims are weak, as it is almost certainly four or nine read digital summation, not CCD-like charge transfer.

 

All the best,

 

Kevin


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#10 rockstarbill

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:31 PM

I'm playing with the idea of getting a new camera mostly for deepsky.  I sort of could care less right now if it would be mono or color.  However, every time I've purchased a camera, the next best thing hits the market.  Had I waited, the newest model would "have fit the bill" better than my purchase.  I've searched around here but can't find any good threads talking about what that "next best thing" would be.  I understand the risk of buying a new model that hasn't been thoroughly tested by other users, but what are we really in store for of what would be the next models of relatively affordable cameras and how soon?

 

Thanks,

Chris

KAF-16200. Plenty of options to choose from affordable to expensive. Filters can be a challenge given the size requirements (2"+) there is a camera on the market that is a 16200 that uses 36mm filters with minor vignetting, the Astrel 16200.

 

Excellent chip, IMO its the best on the market for a number of reasons, other than its sheer size. The biggest being size + compatibility with many different scope combinations. 


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#11 Dean J.

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 11:42 PM

+1 for me on the ZWO ASI6200MM Pro

 

Full frame, 3.76um pixels and 1e to 2.3e read noise.  Sounds pretty good.

 

I may have to finally get that 645 reducer for my FSQ-106.

 


Edited by Dean J., 15 August 2019 - 11:50 PM.

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#12 Coconuts

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 12:26 PM

I just realized that QHYCCD has a below the radar, starting next week, $3K discount for preorders of the QHY600.  It's still pricey ($5K), but I have been looking forward to this camera for some time, and just placed my order.  The 38% discount certainly helps.  Preorders such as this are not without risk; the camera could experience teething pains, I have yet to see a dark frame, etc., but I deal with cutting-edge sensors at work, and the specs on the Sony IMX455 that this camera is based on look awesome, approaching perfection. 

 

Tolga:  "According to Dr Q, the camera is performing well. He doesn't say that about many cameras".

 

QHY page here: https://www.qhyccd.c...&catid=94&id=55

 

A first pass at specs here: https://www.qhyccd.c...=94&id=55&cut=1

 

EDIT:  Whoops... not so fast.  Things are more complicated, but there is also some good news.  The $8K discounted to $5k thing is for the mono version, and is because this is actually the "Scientific version" with GigE hardware but "Photographic version" firmware, so you would have to pay later to make it really SV.  The PV is shipping in a few months, but it will be priced at $5K, which puts it on par with what we have heard about the ZWO ASI6200.  So I will wait and get the OSC when it comes out, and after reviews surface.  I'm not sure if the SV has any advantage other than GigE.

 

All the best,

 

Kevin


Edited by Coconuts, 17 August 2019 - 01:32 PM.


#13 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 01:34 PM

I just returned from SPIE in San Diego where I'm always on the lookout for new camera technologies.  Gary Sims at Spectral Instruments (Tucson, AZ) is one of my "go-to" guys when I want to check out what's happening in the world of professional high end cameras.  Spectral Instruments always has something interesting on display.  This year they had a 4096 x 4096 CMOS camera with 6.4 micron pixels (from memory) on display.  As I recall, it could cool to around -100C below ambient.  Unfortunately, the sensor was custom and was supplied by their customer so it's not a camera that we'll ever see on the market.  Overall, Gary tells me that the push is toward large format CMOS sensors...just as in the world of amateur imaging.  He feels that CMOS sensors are rapidly closing the gap in performance with CCD technology, which he tells me is still considered to be the gold standard in the world of professional applications.  There were a number of extremely large CMOS sensors on display but most had pixels in the range of 11-20 microns so these are used with telescopes with long focal lengths (>~ 6m).  One of the technologies that has been developed is non-destructive read out (NDRO) CMOS, which allows an image to be read while the sensor is integrating signal.  The prototype sensor (called DaVinci) was developed by ImagerLabs in a 4096 x 4096 array of 15 micron pixels.  NDRO allows real time guiding during a long exposure.  Read noise in the early sensors appears to be much larger than in smaller CMOS sensors but it's on par with current CCD sensors.

 

Most of this stuff doesn't apply to the world of amateur imaging--at least yet.  The one tid-bit that might apply to us is Gary's observation that CCD production is generally being ramped to zero.  He predicts the end of production for the KAI-16803 and KAI-16200 within just a few years.  Those are still very widely used chips so we'll just have to wait to see if that prediction comes true.

 

You can find the Spectral Instruments website here:   http://www.specinst.com/index.html.

 

John


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#14 akulapanam

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Posted 17 August 2019 - 04:18 PM

Moravian and Atik are working on a couple of new CMOS cameras, including a GSense one in the case of the former.  The new SX CMOS are nice too and pretty FPN free.  



#15 Coconuts

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 01:31 PM

What does SX stand for?



#16 OleCuss

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 02:23 PM

What does SX stand for?

I'm not sure either, but I'm guessing Starlight Xpress.



#17 akulapanam

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 04:18 PM

I'm not sure either, but I'm guessing Starlight Xpress.

That is correct.



#18 mclewis1

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 04:53 PM

In the context of new full frame CMOS cameras I was going to say it means Super Xpensive.

 

(nothing against Starlight Xpress, I like their products)



#19 akulapanam

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Posted 18 August 2019 - 07:18 PM

In the context of new full frame CMOS cameras I was going to say it means Super Xpensive.

(nothing against Starlight Xpress, I like their products)


You get what you pay for here. Zero fpn and deeper cooling.

#20 Coconuts

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 11:14 AM

Do you have a link on SX full frame CMOS?  I looked there, but only saw CCD.

 

All the best,

 

Kevin



#21 2ghouls

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 01:03 PM

The new SX CMOS are nice too and pretty FPN free.  

Do you have a link on SX full frame CMOS?  I looked there, but only saw CCD.

This is the only Starlight Xpress CMOS imaging camera I can find for sale anywhere: CSX-304. I think it is fairly new.

Not full frame though: Sensor Size (mm) 14.13 x 10.35



#22 Swanny

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 01:14 PM

The only problem I have with these big sensors is my computer. It already labors with the 367c size subs when stacking. Then imagine these big hogs and the drain on your laptop.

#23 Coconuts

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 06:58 PM

Swanny:  AMD has a solution for your computer woes!

 

All the best,

 

Kevin



#24 Swanny

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Posted 19 August 2019 - 10:49 PM

I am an MSI fan for PC. Mine works well.....just labors through those stacks.

#25 james7ca

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 04:07 AM

...We cannot be the only people that find amp glow a problem. Also the glow is I assume thermal and so produces noise. Noise in an optical sensor is best avoided so as said expect someone somewhere is working on such...

I'm pretty sure that most amp glow is caused by electroluminescence from the output stages of the CMOS sensor, not heat (although these circuits also generate some heat which can add to the thermal noise).

 

Here is a good summary from ZWO, talks about what causes amp glow and the design techniques used to reduce it and how to handle it in processing:

 

  https://astronomy-im...s-amp-glow.html




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