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Binos vs Scopes with Binoviewers - Experiences/Comparisons

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#1 RickyD85

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 07:25 AM

As some of you may already know, I am a relative newcomer to astronomy, and started the hobby with 100mm APM ED APO's. I've wanted to step up the magnification to the 150-250x sort of range for more dedicated viewing of the moon/planets/deep sky, and thought a nice big aperture scope would be the easiest and most cost-effective way to do this. Hence my recent purchase of a Celestron CPC 1100.

 

With my experience of the APM bino and being 'spoilt' by the two-eyed views, I was confident that I would probably need a binoviewer to go with my scope in order to have a comparable experience, and that is something I am currently looking into to, however for the time being it is being used with a single eyepiece only, side by side with the APM's. Using the CPC with the supplied 40mm eyepiece, I was a little dissappointed to find eye placement particularly difficult, contrast wasn't great, and as an overall experience not especially enjoyable.

 

Back on the APM's, (with Baader Morpheus 12.5mm eyepieces) and the difference in experience was significant - the comfort, clarity, ease of view, of the APM's were just in a different league and has really made me appreciate them as an astronomy tool even more. So effective and a real joy to use, something that I had obviously taken for granted previously. 

 

That completely confirmed for me that I need to at the very least invest in a binoviewer for the CPC. But have reservations that possibly the APM optics are just far superior, and perhaps the Celestron 40mm eyepiece is just junk?

 

I'd be interested in hearing your experiences in using dedicated bino's vs using scopes with a binoviewer, and whether binoviewing offers the same experience as a proper pair of dedicated binoculars?

 

 

 



#2 edwincjones

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 08:37 AM

easy to answer question

 

-get both and see what you like better for which viewing

-your personal preference will be different from mine/ours

 

edj


Edited by edwincjones, 20 August 2019 - 08:39 AM.

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#3 Mark9473

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 08:42 AM

In my personal experience, a binoviewer on a scope is really nice for lunar and planetary viewing, but not at all for DSO viewing.

Both my refractors allow binoviewing without a magnifying lens (barlow, GPC, you name it) so I can get to relatively low magnifications and large exit pupils. Even so, the DSO view through a binoviewer is dull and dim compared to monoviewing.


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#4 markb

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 09:02 AM

I am a big fan of binocular viewing, but it sounds like your first issue is not the bino viewing, but the eyepiece choice.

 

Anything you like in your APMs you should try in the 11.

 

The second half of the scope is the eyepiece, and awesome eps maximize what a scope delivers to the eye, poor eps just waste that potential. The three legs of scope expense to me are scope, eyepieces and mount.  The CPC11 covers the mount and scope, now you just need to heap money into the eyepieces, unless... you already own them! Those Baaders will do the trick for you.

 

The eyepieces that come with scopes are rarely anything above mediocre. The starter 40mm is not too wide, likely has too much eyerelief, too little power for many objects, etc.

 

These scopes, in my opinion, are wonderful with 82-100 degree eyepieces as the extra power that comes with shorter focal lengths, for the same field as a narrow field longer fl ep, darkens the background for a more pleasing view.

 

The Meade series 4000 26mm plossls that shipped with scopes in the 80s and 90s stand out as an exception to the 'starter ep with scope' issue , good but not amazing; cheap used if you want to pick one up as you get started. It will give about 107x. Cheap enough to buy in pairs, too. I have always assumed the 24-26mm range was the easiest to manufacture inexpensively.

 

I have no clue what your financial status is, but buying wide view, sharp, high contrast and well reviewed eps is always best.

 

I hope you have used your Morpeous eyepieces in the CPC11, they give 216x, right where you asked to be.

 

Did your APMs come with the usual 18mm Ultra Flat Fields? Another nice one to use in the CPC11! Power will be 150x. The Baaders are not an APM product, so look at the rest of the great Baader line, wonderful in my opinion. The UFFs review well and are an APM product, I love mine. It is hard go go wrong with either. Their new wide line is nice too.

 

You have already suffered the expense of buying pairs, so getting a binoviewer is easier for you than most folks.

 

There are several out there at various price points, but I have a Baader Maxbright, and love the easy power adjusting Glasspath corrector system. Pricing is very reasonable,and the Maxbright IIs look very good. No need to spend $1000 plus, but you can.

 

if you are on a budget, used 4.8mm and 7mm Naglers remain one of the best bargains on the used market in my opinion, cheap enough to go bino.

 

Buy a pair and try them in your APMs also, if you have a well assembled and collimated pair they can be used as a higher power binocular telescope, 4m  Naglers are sweet in my 100 APOs at about 115x.

 

The 4.8 and 7mm Naglers in the CPC11 will be amazing on nights of good seeing, finally presenting excellent image scale absent in short fl scopes (hey, not everybody WANTS to extract information from a tiny, but sharp, planetary image in a fast 3 or 4in scope) Photo-like views of Jupiter and Saturn directly to the Mark I eyecall, without a camera , stacking and processing. Jovian moons are easily seen as discs, not points. I have not binoed my 11 yet, waiting for the move West. I am working from using 3" f16, 5" f5 refractors, 90mm and 5" mak and 8 and 11 scts and the apms. They all serve different purposes, but if I had to reduce, it would be to the apms, c8 and gps11.


Edited by markb, 20 August 2019 - 11:20 AM.

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#5 RickyD85

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 04:35 PM

easy to answer question

 

-get both and see what you like better for which viewing

-your personal preference will be different from mine/ours

 

edj

 

I am intending on getting another binoviewer. I originally purchased the scope with a Baader Mark V but it didn’t come with the necessary adaptor to fit to the CPC. So i never bothered fitting it and felt that it was probably not £1,140 wisely spent.

 

Was going to go for the celestron binoviewer to see how I got on with it, however with the announcement of the Baader Maxbright 2 I may hold out for that instead.

 

I know our preferences will all vary, and I think that’s what i’m looking to find with my post. People’s preferences, and more importantly why? I want to have the right expectations if investing in a binoviewer with the scope, and I think having started with the APM’s perhaps my expectations may be a little high?

 

You rightly say I won’t know for sure until I try, but until I get another binoviewer I’d like to know some fellow ‘two-eyed’ enthusiasts opinions, experiences, and advice  smile.gif



#6 Beg

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 04:36 PM

Your C11 is an awesome instrument. Put a 20mm Tele Vue plossl in there, and look at the spiral structure in M51 on a dark night, and you will be hooked big time. It is quite stunning..

 

I have two binoviewers for my C9.25. A William Optics which cost about $350, which got me hooked. I use 24 Pans and 20mm TV plossls with mine, as well as my Morphs. And then a Denk Binotron with a power switch diagonal. To be honest the WO does just fine and will do what you want, which is a super extension of your binos. It takes some time to get used to a SCT and than again when you put a binoviewer on it. The two eyed views can be quite stunning with a SCT for darn sure......

 

 

20170828_114646_resized.jpg

 

 


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#7 RickyD85

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 04:40 PM

In my personal experience, a binoviewer on a scope is really nice for lunar and planetary viewing, but not at all for DSO viewing.

Both my refractors allow binoviewing without a magnifying lens (barlow, GPC, you name it) so I can get to relatively low magnifications and large exit pupils. Even so, the DSO view through a binoviewer is dull and dim compared to monoviewing.

 

My reasoning for the CPC1100 over say an 800 or 925 (or any other smaller scope)  was that it would somewhat make up for the light loss from the binoviewer. I was assuming that it would be maybe equivalent brightness to say monoviewing with a  cpc800 in terms of brightness? 



#8 RickyD85

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 04:59 PM

I am a big fan of binocular viewing, but it sounds like your first issue is not the bino viewing, but the eyepiece choice.

 

Anything you like in your APMs you should try in the 11.

 

The second half of the scope is the eyepiece, and awesome eps maximize what a scope delivers to the eye, poor eps just waste that potential. The three legs of scope expense to me are scope, eyepieces and mount.  The CPC11 covers the mount and scope, now you just need to heap money into the eyepieces, unless... you already own them! Those Baaders will do the trick for you.

 

The eyepieces that come with scopes are rarely anything above mediocre. The starter 40mm is not too wide, likely has too much eyerelief, too little power for many objects, etc.

 

These scopes, in my opinion, are wonderful with 82-100 degree eyepieces as the extra power that comes with shorter focal lengths, for the same field as a narrow field longer fl ep, darkens the background for a more pleasing view.

 

The Meade series 4000 26mm plossls that shipped with scopes in the 80s and 90s stand out as an exception to the 'starter ep with scope' issue , good but not amazing; cheap used if you want to pick one up as you get started. It will give about 107x. Cheap enough to buy in pairs, too. I have always assumed the 24-26mm range was the easiest to manufacture inexpensively.

 

I have no clue what your financial status is, but buying wide view, sharp, high contrast and well reviewed eps is always best.

 

I hope you have used your Morpeous eyepieces in the CPC11, they give 216x, right where you asked to be.

 

Did your APMs come with the usual 18mm Ultra Flat Fields? Another nice one to use in the CPC11! Power will be 150x. The Baaders are not an APM product, so look at the rest of the great Baader line, wonderful in my opinion. The UFFs review well and are an APM product, I love mine. It is hard go go wrong with either. Their new wide line is nice too.

 

You have already suffered the expense of buying pairs, so getting a binoviewer is easier for you than most folks.

 

There are several out there at various price points, but I have a Baader Maxbright, and love the easy power adjusting Glasspath corrector system. Pricing is very reasonable,and the Maxbright IIs look very good. No need to spend $1000 plus, but you can.

 

if you are on a budget, used 4.8mm and 7mm Naglers remain one of the best bargains on the used market in my opinion, cheap enough to go bino.

 

Buy a pair and try them in your APMs also, if you have a well assembled and collimated pair they can be used as a higher power binocular telescope, 4m  Naglers are sweet in my 100 APOs at about 115x.

 

The 4.8 and 7mm Naglers in the CPC11 will be amazing on nights of good seeing, finally presenting excellent image scale absent in short fl scopes (hey, not everybody WANTS to extract information from a tiny, but sharp, planetary image in a fast 3 or 4in scope) Photo-like views of Jupiter and Saturn directly to the Mark I eyecall, without a camera , stacking and processing. Jovian moons are easily seen as discs, not points. I have not binoed my 11 yet, waiting for the move West. I am working from using 3" f16, 5" f5 refractors, 90mm and 5" mak and 8 and 11 scts and the apms. They all serve different purposes, but if I had to reduce, it would be to the apms, c8 and gps11.

 

Mark, many thanks for your post, very informative.

 

i did suspect that a good part of my disappointment was coming from the supplied celestron eyepiece, rather than just the ‘one-eyed’ view. Found it uncomfortable to use but couldn’t quite pin it on it being a mediocre eyepiece or just the fact I was only using one eye. Believe it or not, it was the first time i’ve used a scope!



#9 markb

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 06:19 PM

Absolutely, glad it helps you.

 

An 11 is bigger than the usual first scope! 

 

Besides the image scale, it will absolutely offset the light loss on the binoviewer.

 

I have gone over the reviews, and my take was that the Baader Maxbrights are a step or two ahead of the similarly sourced chinese source look-alikes. As with APM, Baader specs them differently and, I believe, orders only the cream of production. And their coatings are worth the difference.

 

They sold lots of Maxbrights, but they very seldom pop up used, a good sign I think.

 

The Mark Vs sell used for close to the new price, as there is almost nothing in its class. The Glasspath correctors work in the Mark Vs and the Maxbrights, with once (2.5x??) needing a element to be flipped.

 

The version 2 Maxbrights are listed as finally available but sold out on the Baader site, and they have very good specs (and Clicklocks). 

 

Anything you are missing for the Mark V can be bought, look on the Baader site and then search for the stock number in the US or wherever you are.

 

My back complains when I move my GPS11, but the views are so much better than my 6" fast achromat (very high grade from the 60s/70s) it isn't funny. A really, really good C8 is also very pleasing and easier to move, but the 11 is awesome.  Except for awful seeing it is great, and it can easily be stopped down to a mere 4" unobstructed f25 or so.

 

But do try that APM 100 with 4.8 Naglers, or a Baader Mk IV zoom with matched barlow (buying the set is cheaper, and available from England), if it is well collimated and assembled it will be amazing. Apparently you can afford the good stuff, so hit the Nagler sellers and look for other well reviewed eps (and the Baader Zooms fall into that category, I will not give mine up).


Edited by markb, 20 August 2019 - 06:20 PM.


#10 markb

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 06:25 PM

I just saw that you list your location, Kent in the UK.

That makes ALL the Baader stuff easy, go to 365Astronomy.com's website, and/or call Zoltan that runs it. I think they are in Brighton.

Great place, they will special order anything they do not stock (their site lists stock levels). Anything on the Baader site, and parts, should be available.

You should have no problem putting that Mark V to work.

And look into getting the 3.25" SCT Clicklock back to open up the rear of that scope.

Edited by markb, 20 August 2019 - 07:06 PM.


#11 25585

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Posted 20 August 2019 - 07:44 PM

MaxBright II will be revealed at AME 2019 on 14th Sept. 

 

Price per Baader will be €425. 25.5mm aperture for up to 35mm 1.25" fit eyepieces. (So Eudiascopics/Ultimas/Ultrascopics/Parks Gold 35s are good.)

 

Sign up for notice of availability!     



#12 RickyD85

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 07:04 AM

Your C11 is an awesome instrument. Put a 20mm Tele Vue plossl in there, and look at the spiral structure in M51 on a dark night, and you will be hooked big time. It is quite stunning..

 

I have two binoviewers for my C9.25. A William Optics which cost about $350, which got me hooked. I use 24 Pans and 20mm TV plossls with mine, as well as my Morphs. And then a Denk Binotron with a power switch diagonal. To be honest the WO does just fine and will do what you want, which is a super extension of your binos. It takes some time to get used to a SCT and than again when you put a binoviewer on it. The two eyed views can be quite stunning with a SCT for darn sure......

 

 

attachicon.gif 20170828_114646_resized.jpg

 

Hi Beg, i'm glad to see you have 'been there done that' with an SCT and binoviewer and that you are very happy with the set up. I'm a bit more confident now that all will be well as soon as I get a binoviewer. Your SCT setup pictured is pretty much exactly what I want. Have a Telrad on order as I cannot stand the supplied finder scope with the C11. Going from the binoculars with the correct view, over to that finder, upside down/back to front etc was extremely frustrating! 

 

I'm looking into the Baader Amici Prism correct image diagonal, but am a little unsure of it's performance, especially so combined with a binoviewer. It seems to have good reviews. If its a good performer I will almost certainly get one.

 

The 24mm TV Panoptics seem to be highly recommended and that will more than likely be my next eyepiece purchase. They should also work nicely in my APM's @ 23x magnification which is the direction I want to head in with the APM's now. After having nearly 18 months experience in using them, i'm finding that my preference with the APM's is generally lower power, wider views. They will give 116x in the C11 which will be a nice low/mid power, and I can use the Morpheus 12.5mm to give 225x which should be plenty for me at the moment.


Edited by RickyD85, 21 August 2019 - 07:04 AM.


#13 RickyD85

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 07:34 AM

Absolutely, glad it helps you.

 

An 11 is bigger than the usual first scope! 

 

Besides the image scale, it will absolutely offset the light loss on the binoviewer.

 

I have gone over the reviews, and my take was that the Baader Maxbrights are a step or two ahead of the similarly sourced chinese source look-alikes. As with APM, Baader specs them differently and, I believe, orders only the cream of production. And their coatings are worth the difference.

 

They sold lots of Maxbrights, but they very seldom pop up used, a good sign I think.

 

The Mark Vs sell used for close to the new price, as there is almost nothing in its class. The Glasspath correctors work in the Mark Vs and the Maxbrights, with once (2.5x??) needing a element to be flipped.

 

The version 2 Maxbrights are listed as finally available but sold out on the Baader site, and they have very good specs (and Clicklocks). 

 

Anything you are missing for the Mark V can be bought, look on the Baader site and then search for the stock number in the US or wherever you are.

 

My back complains when I move my GPS11, but the views are so much better than my 6" fast achromat (very high grade from the 60s/70s) it isn't funny. A really, really good C8 is also very pleasing and easier to move, but the 11 is awesome.  Except for awful seeing it is great, and it can easily be stopped down to a mere 4" unobstructed f25 or so.

 

But do try that APM 100 with 4.8 Naglers, or a Baader Mk IV zoom with matched barlow (buying the set is cheaper, and available from England), if it is well collimated and assembled it will be amazing. Apparently you can afford the good stuff, so hit the Nagler sellers and look for other well reviewed eps (and the Baader Zooms fall into that category, I will not give mine up).

 

Just figured that if I am going to invest in a scope I might as well just go for the one I would probably eventually want anyway.

 

The vendor (Widescreen Centre, in the UK) let me return the Baader Mark V's straight away. It would have been nice to have tested them, but as I was missing an adaptor piece, along with not being really comfortable with what I had paid for them I sent them back. I hadn't done much research on the binoviewers really until after placing the order, and seeing that the Maxbright 2's were on the horizon it made more sense to get the credit back and get something like the Maxbrights with some nice eyepieces and erecting diagonal, that's probably money better spent.

 

I would like to try the 4.8mm Naglers in my APM's, but I use quite a lightweight setup (Manfrotto 475B with N12 fluid head) so it might be a little shaky at that sort of power! smile.gif


Edited by RickyD85, 21 August 2019 - 07:34 AM.

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#14 harbinjer

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 09:26 AM

Your C11 is an awesome instrument. Put a 20mm Tele Vue plossl in there, and look at the spiral structure in M51 on a dark night, and you will be hooked big time. It is quite stunning..

I want to echo this! M51 is mighty impressive in a C11 in dark skies.  Definitely try the Morpheus and APM eyepieces for mono-viewing in the C11. A good eyepiece can make all the difference.  Also look for astronomy clubs and events in your area. I was able to borrow a 13T6 Nagler to match my own to try in a binoviewer. It was fantastic. Eyepieces are definitely very personal things, so people have very different preferences. Some will have better transmission, contrast, or a larger field of view, or just feel more comfortable.  Also, an eyepiece that's comfortable for monoviewing may not be so great in a binoviewer, as you need to fit you nose between two of them, and your eyes need to be just right; they don't have as much freedom of motion while still seeing the image when you need to have two eyes on target.   Lastly, what's better than observing on a nice clear night? Doing so with friends and mentors. You can learn a lot from books and the internet, but putting your eyes to different telescopes, eyepieces and binoculars will be fun and almost effortless learning.



#15 RickyD85

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 11:54 AM

And now I see that there is an EMS correct image mirror 'diagonal' available.

 

That has to be a no-brainer with binoviewers right?



#16 salico

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:06 PM

thougth, the EMS units are for Binocular Telescopes...



#17 RickyD85

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 12:40 PM

thougth, the EMS units are for Binocular Telescopes...


I read this thread where it seems these are suitable for use, singularly in some telescopes? (Post no.4 by Kunama)

https://www.cloudyni...-for-astronomy/

And then adding a binoviewer in place of the eyepiece may work for an SCT scope?

Edited by RickyD85, 21 August 2019 - 12:46 PM.


#18 garret

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 01:03 PM

thougth, the EMS units are for Binocular Telescopes...

From EMS/ Matsumoto you can order just one EMS mirror for an erect image with only one telescope and eyepiece.

Light path inside a EMS is long but that isn't a problem with SC telescopes, adding a binoviewer makes light path extreme long, you may not reach focus.


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#19 ArsMachina

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 04:37 PM

I did play around a lot with binocular toys, SCT up to the C11 and a 12,5" high end Dobson with 1,25" and even 2" Binoviewers

I compared the views to big binoculars and binoscopes.

 

My conclusion is: Get a binocular/binoscope in the best possible quality and as big as you can afford and handle.

 

c8-15.jpg

 

Jochen


Edited by ArsMachina, 22 August 2019 - 02:59 AM.

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#20 Kunama

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Posted 21 August 2019 - 05:44 PM

I would not recommend combining the EMS unit with a binoviewer unless a scope is designed with lots of back focus.

The EMS-US has the shortest light path of the EMS line but it is 122mm and as such not ideal for adding another 110mm from a binoviewer ...

Very few scopes have that much back focus....

 

The best diagonals for use with binoviewers are the Baader T2 Zeiss prism and T2 Maxbright or BBHS mirror diagonals fitted with a 2" nose piece and the Baader HD Quick Connect system for attaching the binoviewer.  The Maxbrights look very promising.  I like the Baader ClickLocks a lot and would go with them ahead of any other eyepiece clamps.  I have them fitted to my Zeiss binoviewer.

They do add a little to the light path but that is a worthwhile compromise.

 

 

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#21 Erik Bakker

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 02:56 AM

Ricky,

 

Good thing you've reached out with your issues here. All the experience available will help you get a better experience from your instruments.

 

First of all, you are comparing 2 very different views:

low-medium power 43x binocular views from small aperture, fast focal ratio refractors, operating around the optimum for our eyes 2mm exit pupil

with 

medium power 70x views from a large aperture, long focal length SCT in mono viewing mode around a largish 4 mm exit pupil.

 

Given the differences in design and size, many differences come into play:

 

bino vs mono

2 apertures vs one

SCT vs refractor

long vs short focal length 

 

Normally, your binocular 100mm ED's should be in collimation ("aligned") and are best left alone outside expert/factory adjustments.

A SCT needs to be collimated by the user. Some more often than others, but more often than not, collimation is a mess at first light, severely influencing the viewing experience. Once collimated, some scope stay collimated for a year or so, others for only a few others for critical high power observing.

A SCT also needs thermal equilibrium, which for a large scope can take anywhere put to 4 hours or more, depending on the temperature difference between storage and observing and the cooling down of the atmosphere on a given night. But rarely is it ready to show it's full potential within an hour of setting up and collimating the optics.

Refractors, especially doublets, are know for their fast cool down and stable images.

 

So:

 

1. give the SCT a few hours to cool, or alternatively insulate the OTA in bubble wrap/Reflectix

2. collimate the SCT carefully and properly, info is abundant on CloudyNighs

3. the bigger C11 is much more defendant on good seeing ("air tranquility") than the much smaller ED100

3. use better eyepieces on you SCT

4. start using a binoviewer on your SCT on the moon and planets from around 120x and higher

5. use the APM ED100 for low-medium powers and the C11 for medium to high powers, taking into account the local temperature drops in accordance with the time you have available to let the SCT cool down and collimate it.

6. per exit pupil diameter, a refractor is likely not give a more pleasing image than an SCT

7. At 250x in binoview mode, a properly cooled and collimated C11 will wow you with it's views of the planets, showing detail and shades of color unavailable to the ED100 APM bino

8. an 11" SCT is never of the user simplicity of a 4" ED to use it to (almost|) full potential

 

Hope this helps a bit.



#22 RickyD85

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 06:57 AM

Ricky,

 

Good thing you've reached out with your issues here. All the experience available will help you get a better experience from your instruments.

 

First of all, you are comparing 2 very different views:

low-medium power 43x binocular views from small aperture, fast focal ratio refractors, operating around the optimum for our eyes 2mm exit pupil

with 

medium power 70x views from a large aperture, long focal length SCT in mono viewing mode around a largish 4 mm exit pupil.

 

Given the differences in design and size, many differences come into play:

 

bino vs mono

2 apertures vs one

SCT vs refractor

long vs short focal length 

 

Normally, your binocular 100mm ED's should be in collimation ("aligned") and are best left alone outside expert/factory adjustments.

A SCT needs to be collimated by the user. Some more often than others, but more often than not, collimation is a mess at first light, severely influencing the viewing experience. Once collimated, some scope stay collimated for a year or so, others for only a few others for critical high power observing.

A SCT also needs thermal equilibrium, which for a large scope can take anywhere put to 4 hours or more, depending on the temperature difference between storage and observing and the cooling down of the atmosphere on a given night. But rarely is it ready to show it's full potential within an hour of setting up and collimating the optics.

Refractors, especially doublets, are know for their fast cool down and stable images.

 

So:

 

1. give the SCT a few hours to cool, or alternatively insulate the OTA in bubble wrap/Reflectix

2. collimate the SCT carefully and properly, info is abundant on CloudyNighs

3. the bigger C11 is much more defendant on good seeing ("air tranquility") than the much smaller ED100

3. use better eyepieces on you SCT

4. start using a binoviewer on your SCT on the moon and planets from around 120x and higher

5. use the APM ED100 for low-medium powers and the C11 for medium to high powers, taking into account the local temperature drops in accordance with the time you have available to let the SCT cool down and collimate it.

6. per exit pupil diameter, a refractor is likely not give a more pleasing image than an SCT

7. At 250x in binoview mode, a properly cooled and collimated C11 will wow you with it's views of the planets, showing detail and shades of color unavailable to the ED100 APM bino

8. an 11" SCT is never of the user simplicity of a 4" ED to use it to (almost|) full potential

 

Hope this helps a bit.

 

Hi Erik, thank you for another brilliant post in this thread, this has been a real education for me. There are obviously many differences affecting the viewing experience that I am now starting to full appreciate. I store the C11 outside in an uninsulated/unheated garage so thermal equilibrium shouldn't take very long (if at all) to achieve. I was also not aware that the C11 would require collimation, this is very good to know and will look into checking/adjusting it soon.

 

I'm looking forward to finalising my set up of the C11 for a real two-eyed comparison. They will obviously excel in their respective areas, but what I have realised now is just how good the APM's generally are. Optics/view quality aside, (I haven't been able to make the comparison yet) but everything else that makes up the 'experience'. The C11 will excel on planets and DSO, the APM's on clusters etc, but the ease of setup, comfort of view, and versatility are all things that are very, very easily taken for granted with the APM's as part of the overall experience.

 

If I could only have one instrument and nothing else, it would be my APM's smile.gif


Edited by RickyD85, 22 August 2019 - 06:57 AM.


#23 RickyD85

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 07:08 AM

I would not recommend combining the EMS unit with a binoviewer unless a scope is designed with lots of back focus.

The EMS-US has the shortest light path of the EMS line but it is 122mm and as such not ideal for adding another 110mm from a binoviewer ...

Very few scopes have that much back focus....

 

The best diagonals for use with binoviewers are the Baader T2 Zeiss prism and T2 Maxbright or BBHS mirror diagonals fitted with a 2" nose piece and the Baader HD Quick Connect system for attaching the binoviewer.  The Maxbrights look very promising.  I like the Baader ClickLocks a lot and would go with them ahead of any other eyepiece clamps.  I have them fitted to my Zeiss binoviewer.

They do add a little to the light path but that is a worthwhile compromise.

 

I've sent an email to Tatsuro to enquire about buying an EMS unit. He originally replied recommending the EMS-UL unit. When I responded by saying I was looking at using a bionoviewer with it, he suggested 'EMS-UM'. I have read the SCT's have a lot of back focus, Is there a way I can calculate if the system will work? Eg finding out the light path focussing capability of the C11 (is this a known length?) and then comparing to the overall light path of the EMS, and binoviewer combined?

 

It does seem unlikely the EMS/binoviewer combo will work but I haven't seen anything definitive yet. If I could use the EMS erecting mirror then I would have no concerns whatsoever about diminishing the quality of view at higher powers. My ideal set up is a correctly orientated image, working in conjunction with a binviewer.

 

Are the Baader T2 Zeiss prism, T2 Maxbright, or BBHS mirror diagonals image correcting ones? I see there is an expensive Baader Amici roof prism version, which I would happily invest in, I'm just apprehensive as there is talk of an 'Amici line' and possible problems at higher powers? I would intend at binoviewing planets at maximum possible power 250-350x.



#24 Mark9473

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 09:15 AM

Is there a way I can calculate if the system will work? Eg finding out the light path focussing capability of the C11 (is this a known length?) and then comparing to the overall light path of the EMS, and binoviewer combined?

I strongly recommend that you study the threads on this topic in the Binoviewers forum; there was quite a lot of discussion on that a few years ago.

My recollection is, that even if you can reach focus, you may be outside the range where your optics are tuned for minimal aberrations, and you may be losing effective aperture of your scope.

Definitely read up on the topic.


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#25 edwincjones

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Posted 22 August 2019 - 09:52 AM

.................

 

You rightly say I won’t know for sure until I try, but until I get another binoviewer I’d like to know some fellow ‘two-eyed’ enthusiasts opinions, experiences, and advice  smile.gif

 

I enjoy the binocular's wider FOV,

up is up and right is right orientation,

and to be able to see "the forest  rather than the individual trees;

 

 for telescope viewing  I  enjoy the more comfortable

two eyed viewing of detailed objects.

 

thus my recommendation of both binoculars and binoviewers 

 

edj


Edited by edwincjones, 22 August 2019 - 09:53 AM.

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