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On The Edge of Defeat

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#51 buckeyestargazer

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 09:36 AM

I'm no expert here, but I have a QHY163M and QHY183M that were both experiencing weird problems like this.  All USB3 powered connections.  I switched my CABLES to USB2 cables and no problems at all any more.  In my use case, this doesn't make any difference at all.  In SGP the full frame image downloads are 3s whether I use a USB3 or USB2 cable.   



#52 JoeR

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 10:32 AM

I'm sorry you're having so many troubles. I do everything manually and keep it as simple as possible to avoid these headaches. Good thing too as all three of my ZWO cameras have has occasional issues that require reboots on software or the laptop or reconnecting the cameras. More with the 1600MM-c than the others. Keeping the USB traffic setting at 40 helps but not always. It's an easy fix for me since I'm there next the setup so I tolerate it. Obviously no so for you. So probably the best first step is to ditch the ZWO camera for something more reliable and field tested such as the Lodestar x2 or the QHY163M, their equivalent of the 1600MM.

 

I recently ditched my USB 3.0 powered hub as I was having lots of problems with the WIFI connection on the AP CP4 controller. It turns out the USB 3.0 hub sends out a frequency that disrupts the WIFI signal on the CP4. I  really only need USB 3 speed when capturing planetary video and I use a short direct 3ft cable for that, no through the mount cable management needed so the hub was no big loss. I know you don't use a hub but there may be an active repeater somewhere in the PC and network interface that may disrupt signals.



#53 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 10:44 AM

John:

 

It depends on what problem you are trying to solve. The extender in your link is nothing more than a repeater that is intended to extend the cable reach without loss of data integrity. With cameras, loss of data integrity typically manifests as dropped frames, not dropped devices. Since you seem to be losing the device, that tends to point to a power problem, not a data integrity problem. The USB specification provides a Vbus voltage of 5V for the device to use as it pleases. The specification limits the current on Vbus to a total of 500mA, but that is shared by all devices on the root hub. Depending on the root hub architecture, the Vbus voltage can drop considerably when the power limit is exceeded. The USB specification allows Vbus to drop to 4.75V at 500mA, but beyond that, there is no specification. If the root hub has a load of 600mA, the Vbus voltage could be substantially less than 4.75V, and if it drops too low, the connected device will often fail. It is also a dirty little secret that many host controllers are not standard-compliant and will drop voltage below 4.75V on Vbus well below the 500mA load. Voltage drop is also not necessarily static. As corrosion develops on the contacts (all contacts corrode somewhat) ohmic losses can increase and a connection that worked fine when connected can degrade over time. That's why some have suggested a powered cable. It will maintain a Vbus of 5V up to a much higher load than 500mA. I'm inclined to agree that your problem is more likely related to a voltage drop on Vbus than transmission data loss. 

 

Another thing to consider is how many root hubs your PC has. Each root hub should have its own 500mA of power headroom. If all of your devices are connected to one root hub, you could be overloading the hub. You can check Device Manager to see how many root hubs you have, and the properties page may tell you which devices are connected to the hub. In case you are not already aware, the external USB ports do not necessarily uniquely connect to a root hub. So two or more devices connected to separate USB ports on the PC may well be sharing the same root hub and the power it provides.

 

Tim

 

Tim,

Thanks for that analysis.  I agree that if there's a problem related to USB, it's most likely due to a voltage drop at the camera.  The ASI-1600MM-C Pro is supposed to only require 300 mA at 5VDC.  I don't actually know how many root buses are in my PC; but, this camera is the only device that's connected with a USB3 cable.  Everything else is USB2 and none of these are powered from the USB ports.  Again, all of this stuff worked fine for 4-6 weeks before the camera went wonky.  Maybe corrosion on the cable contacts could have caused an increase in contact resistance, which could cause the voltage at the camera to fall below threshold; but, it may be that something in the camera has simply failed.  I don't know.  The ultimate problem is that I can't keep flying back and forth experimenting.  I need to go out there with a big toolbox to definitively solve this problem and I'll make sure that a powered cable is in the box when I go.

 

John



#54 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 10:53 AM

John,

I sympathise with your ongoing problems. I get upset when my system goes wrong and it’s only 10 feet from the house!

I believe you are using an ONAG as part of your guiding solution and I understand why you have chosen the large format ASI1600 as a guide camera to pair with it ( I also have an ONAG). As another possible solution to your troubles have you considered using the new full frame guiding software from Innovations Foresight (I think it’s called SkyGuard) in conjunction with the Ultrastar guide camera. My understanding is that this software can guide on very faint stars, far more so than we would normally consider usable. I think you found the Ultrastar to be reliable so maybe this would work for you. You might have more software problems than hardware but at least these can be fixed without having to make a long journey.

My apologies if I’ve got your use of the ONAG and Ultrastar wrong, I going on memory of other posts and my memory is the most unreliable part of my system!

Good luck, Ian

 

Ian,

Gaston kindly tried to set me up as a beta tester for SkyGuard; but, so far, we've never been able to get it to work on my system.  There are a lot of limitations due to MaximDL and my cameras.  We've fooled with it a number of times but I've been reluctant to give up very many good imaging nights messing with it and now with TV giving me a hard time, I don't know if I can get Gaston back into my system to try again.  I absolutely love the idea but at the time, the code ran very slowly and the settings were overly complicated--and with all of my pre-existing camera problems, I've been hesitant to introduce yet another layer of complexity into my system, so that whole idea is currently dormant.

 

John



#55 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 10:54 AM

Along those lines, this is a good item to have in the tool kit for troubleshooting USB power issues.

 

Oh yeah..that's super cool!  I'll definitely order one of those.  Thanks for the tip.

 

John



#56 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 10:58 AM

I'm no expert here, but I have a QHY163M and QHY183M that were both experiencing weird problems like this.  All USB3 powered connections.  I switched my CABLES to USB2 cables and no problems at all any more.  In my use case, this doesn't make any difference at all.  In SGP the full frame image downloads are 3s whether I use a USB3 or USB2 cable.   

 

Thank you!!!  That's the kind of information that really helps.  I keep wondering if this is a ZWO specific or a USB specific problem.  I'm wondering if I should just buy a QHY163M and try it; but, your experience tells me that that's not a good bet.  I'll definitely try to have someone at the observatory swap out the USB3 cable for a USB2 cable to see if that fixes the problem.

 

John


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#57 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 11:03 AM

I'm sorry you're having so many troubles. I do everything manually and keep it as simple as possible to avoid these headaches. Good thing too as all three of my ZWO cameras have has occasional issues that require reboots on software or the laptop or reconnecting the cameras. More with the 1600MM-c than the others. Keeping the USB traffic setting at 40 helps but not always. It's an easy fix for me since I'm there next the setup so I tolerate it. Obviously no so for you. So probably the best first step is to ditch the ZWO camera for something more reliable and field tested such as the Lodestar x2 or the QHY163M, their equivalent of the 1600MM.

 

I recently ditched my USB 3.0 powered hub as I was having lots of problems with the WIFI connection on the AP CP4 controller. It turns out the USB 3.0 hub sends out a frequency that disrupts the WIFI signal on the CP4. I  really only need USB 3 speed when capturing planetary video and I use a short direct 3ft cable for that, no through the mount cable management needed so the hub was no big loss. I know you don't use a hub but there may be an active repeater somewhere in the PC and network interface that may disrupt signals.

Joe,

I've messed with the USB speed setting and it makes no difference.  Running at 40 is as bad as running at 50, 60, or 70.  My connection is as simple as it gets.  PC -> camera direct with one USB3 cable.  As I've said, I'll try a USB2 cable next.  

 

The interesting thing that seems to be coming out here is that I'm not the only one who sees connectivity problems with these cameras.

 

John



#58 cfosterstars

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 12:12 PM

Joe,

I've messed with the USB speed setting and it makes no difference.  Running at 40 is as bad as running at 50, 60, or 70.  My connection is as simple as it gets.  PC -> camera direct with one USB3 cable.  As I've said, I'll try a USB2 cable next.  

 

The interesting thing that seems to be coming out here is that I'm not the only one who sees connectivity problems with these cameras.

 

John

John,

 

This probably is absolutely no help, but I just ran into a problem with my own rig with USB connectivity issues for the first time. You can read the post here:

 

https://www.cloudyni...ring-autofocus/

 

My issue was - I think - not what setting for USB speed, but that they two cameras that I use were a different speeds. This was not a lock up issue, but I could not use autofocus because if it. It was a weird issue and probably not what you have, but I dont know all your details or what you tried. I wish I could help more. This was my first experience with a USB issue - I guess I have been very fortunate.  This only happened since I had to change computers and re-install everything. 

 

Chris



#59 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 12:33 PM

John,

 

This probably is absolutely no help, but I just ran into a problem with my own rig with USB connectivity issues for the first time. You can read the post here:

 

https://www.cloudyni...ring-autofocus/

 

My issue was - I think - not what setting for USB speed, but that they two cameras that I use were a different speeds. This was not a lock up issue, but I could not use autofocus because if it. It was a weird issue and probably not what you have, but I dont know all your details or what you tried. I wish I could help more. This was my first experience with a USB issue - I guess I have been very fortunate.  This only happened since I had to change computers and re-install everything. 

 

Chris

Chris,

I'm glad you got it resolved but your symptoms were nearly identical to mine.  On my system, MaximDL simply posts a message, "Waiting for guide cycle" and another message box just posts, "Waiting".  It locks the whole system until I intervene to disconnect the camera and restart everything.  Simply changing the USB speed is pretty simple and I hope that fixes it for you.

 

ZWO is trying to send me a debugging/logging application that they want me to run.  Unfortunately I can't unzip it so I'm trying to get them to just send the an unzipped file.  I'm also going to try swapping in a USB2 cable with a bit of creative rewiring.  All of this will certainly take a few days given that nothing happens fast when you are dealing with people in such different locations.

 

John



#60 cfosterstars

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 12:43 PM

Chris,

I'm glad you got it resolved but your symptoms were nearly identical to mine.  On my system, MaximDL simply posts a message, "Waiting for guide cycle" and another message box just posts, "Waiting".  It locks the whole system until I intervene to disconnect the camera and restart everything.  Simply changing the USB speed is pretty simple and I hope that fixes it for you.

 

ZWO is trying to send me a debugging/logging application that they want me to run.  Unfortunately I can't unzip it so I'm trying to get them to just send the an unzipped file.  I'm also going to try swapping in a USB2 cable with a bit of creative rewiring.  All of this will certainly take a few days given that nothing happens fast when you are dealing with people in such different locations.

 

John

Wow. that is very interesting. I dont want to rehash and through out a bunch of useless suggestions here. However, what I can do is see what I can do testing my rig that could give you some help. My issue seems VERY reproducible. I set my debug logs to SGP and they were stumped to the root cause, but did suggest the USB timing issue as a possibility - "off the top of my head" they said.  It turns out they were correct. I dont use MaximDL although I did and still do have a license. I HATED the program and the support so I abandoned it. I want to go back and see if its just that the setting of the USB speeds were mis-matched by itself or just that I had one camera at high speed that was hogging the whole thing. Also all my cameras are all ZWO so I cant test a different manufacturers camera on my system. the good news is that this does not take that long for me to do since I know exactly how to break it and reverse it - (I hope - Famous last words)...



#61 JamesTX

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 01:25 PM


Frankly, if USB standards all that sensitive, this all strikes me as a total house of cards and it's surprising that anything works at all

 

I've been in IT for 20 years and still catch myself saying that... and not just with USB :)

 

John, your images are fantastic and set a standard for me.  I hope you get this worked out.  The one thing that jumped out to me was the cable length.  As witnessed in this thread, USB is flaky.  I think you're on the right track with the help your getting here and with ZWO.

 

James


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#62 Seanem44

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 01:38 PM

That's horrible luck.  I count my lucky stars, but mine has worked great for two years.  Fingers crossed for it.  I would talk to ZWO.  Sam seems pretty good with customer relations.



#63 Seanem44

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 01:41 PM

Thank you!!!  That's the kind of information that really helps.  I keep wondering if this is a ZWO specific or a USB specific problem.  I'm wondering if I should just buy a QHY163M and try it; but, your experience tells me that that's not a good bet.  I'll definitely try to have someone at the observatory swap out the USB3 cable for a USB2 cable to see if that fixes the problem.

 

John

Just read this...

 

USB 3 versus 2 can absolutely cause all kind of problems!  I had issue with my PHD guiding trying to use it USB3.

 

I think this is one of those things where astro-equipment is evolving slower than PC technology.  Not just in AP though, Ive had other equipment not work correctly on my home PC using 3 in a USB 2 and vice versa.


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#64 spokeshave

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 01:45 PM

Tim,

Thanks for that analysis.  I agree that if there's a problem related to USB, it's most likely due to a voltage drop at the camera.  The ASI-1600MM-C Pro is supposed to only require 300 mA at 5VDC.  I don't actually know how many root buses are in my PC; but, this camera is the only device that's connected with a USB3 cable.  Everything else is USB2 and none of these are powered from the USB ports.  Again, all of this stuff worked fine for 4-6 weeks before the camera went wonky.  Maybe corrosion on the cable contacts could have caused an increase in contact resistance, which could cause the voltage at the camera to fall below threshold; but, it may be that something in the camera has simply failed.  I don't know.  The ultimate problem is that I can't keep flying back and forth experimenting.  I need to go out there with a big toolbox to definitively solve this problem and I'll make sure that a powered cable is in the box when I go.

 

John

John:

 

I apologize, I missed that the ASI160MM-C is connected via USB3. The total current available on a USB3 hub is 900mA, so unless you have another higher-current device on the same root hub (worth investigating), it probably isn't a power problem. That is, or course, assuming that the ASI1600MM-C isn't defective and drawing more current than spec. That's easy enough to determine using one of the USB meters like the one Wade recommended. There is also the possibility that the camera driver is requesting too little current, though I think that's remote. When a USB device connects, it make a request to the host controller for a current budget in increments of 150mA  (unit power load) and the host controller allocates no more than that current to the device. If the camera is requesting 300mA, but demands more than that, there could be problems. You can see what current the device has requested by going to Device Manager, right clicking on the connected device and clicking the "Power" tab. It may be that the the utility ZWO wants you to use is looking at this. Unfortunately, short of a driver update, there is nothing you can do to fix this, though as I said, it is a fairly unlikely problem.

 

You mentioned that you don't know how many root hubs your PC has. It may be worth investigating this. Not only do devices connected to the same root hub share the same power budget, they share the same bandwidth budget as well. While USB has fairly impressive bandwidth it is not really designed to have simultaneous high bandwidth demands from different devices. Each root hub has its own direct connection to the PCI bus, which has massive bandwidth, so any bandwidth bottleneck  would be at the root hub itself. That's why it is always a good idea to have high bandwidth devices (cameras) each on their own root hub. 

 

I also agree with the suggestion to reduce all of your USB connections to USB 2. It has been my experience that USB 3 is far more fragile and more inclined to fail irrecoverably than USB 2. There is really only a negligible difference in speed for most cameras. For lunar and planetary, USB 3 has a definite advantage, but the difference in download speeds between USB 2 and 3 for DSO imaging is typically pretty negligible. That's a small price to pay for the increased reliability. 

 

Oh, I also meant to ask - how are you connecting the ASI160MM-C? Are you using the native driver or using ASCOM?

 

Tim


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#65 PeteM

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 01:48 PM

Just curious here John, but are all the USB ports built into the motherboard? Meaning you have not added an expansion card with additional ports? I know a few posts up there was talk about USB roots hubs. Most the time a motherboard has just one root hub built in and additional are gained by adding via expansion cards in the back. I did that with my system when I had my "old" ZWO 294mc-Pro to get a USB3. Then all my other devices (Lodestar, TCF-S) went through the USB2.0 on the motherboard. I never had any issues with cameras freezing up. Plus then, the 294MC had its own dedicated hub and power feed. Hope that helps in some way. I know you are getting 10,000 pieces of advice here and it is hard to sort what is useful for your situation.



#66 MikeMiller

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 04:11 PM

Frankly, if USB standards all that sensitive, this all strikes me as a total house of cards and it's surprising that anything works at all.

This has been my experience with USB as well. smile.gif

 

I no longer trust when a vendor says something is "USB 3.0", as I suspect the underlying port might be 3.1.

 

To paraphrase Churchill: "USB is the worst form of connector, except for all the others that have been tried."


Edited by MikeMiller, 27 August 2019 - 04:13 PM.


#67 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 04:28 PM

Uh...RS232 was actually pretty good.  Network connections are pretty good and Camera Link works well for industrial applications.  In my view, USB is only good for office level connections.

 

John


Edited by jhayes_tucson, 27 August 2019 - 04:30 PM.

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#68 50N8O

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 04:56 PM

Hi John,

your account on Astrobin tells us that you logged almost 800 hours exposure time, at least for the images on ABin.
These are about 2,880,000 seconds.
As your typical exposure seems to be 1,200 seconds long, your main camera was fired 2,400 times during the whole 800 hours, which is modest for a FLI-camera.
I could not see how long your typical guiding exposure is, but if you used 5 seconds frames typically for guiding your guiding camera fired 576,000 times during the 800 hours.
If you used 3 seconds frames for guiding this amounts to 960,000 exposures.
No doubt the real numbers are higher as not all frames the cameras recorded went in to the images you want to present.

Could it be that the camera you use for guiding simply is not build for this kind of workload?

Friedhelm



#69 BobT

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 07:38 PM

I thought USB was an acronym for Unfinished Serial Bus smile.gif.  Sorry, the devil made me do it.

 

BobT


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#70 JoeR

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 09:32 PM

I think this is one of those things where astro-equipment is evolving slower than PC technology.  Not just in AP though, Ive had other equipment not work correctly on my home PC using 3 in a USB 2 and vice versa.

That is the case with the pro audio world most interfaces are still USB 2.0, as is everything in my home recording studio. It's slower but it just works and reliability is essential in that environment. You don't want to tell a guitarist who just executed a flawless performance that the interface connection dropped and they have to do it again. Frankly I'm surprised at how many mount manufacturers are still implementing RS-232 serial interfaces.



#71 Corsica

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 09:36 PM

DO NOT GIVE UP, just yet!

 

First there are people out there who run remote observatories successfully with USB connections.

We have many customers doing so (including ZWO users), therefore IT IS DOABLE. I know this does not fix your current issue, but as you know from your background in mathematics, the existence of a solution does not mean it is easy, or even possible, to find it, but there is hope and here we know there are solutions indeed.

Many others have succeeded, maybe (likely) after some painful experience as well...

 

I can only share my own experience with my setup (which is near my house, it helps for sure, at least for minimizing travel cost and frustration).

 

I had a TON of USB issues as well.

Mount, cameras, focuser, ..., losing USB connections, usually strongly correlated with the best nights, go figure ?@%&&!!!

 

It toke me a lot of time to fix those, so far so good.

 

First every time that my USB cable was more than 3m I used a active USB cable when it was not possible to do otherwise, then I replaced my office USB hub by an industrial grade one with external power, it was not cheap, just the UBS hub was around $400, but it works flawlessly since, from -40C to +60C!

 

Also I made sure that all my USB cables are using good golden, or similar, connectors.

Oxidation over time is an issue, especially since we are basically in outdoor application, office products are not recommended.

Granted there is no direct exposure to water, hopefully, but still it is a harsh environment.

You can even find industrial USB cables and hubs using water resistant connectors with can be screwed. I did not go that far though.

Proper grounding and USB network topology is important to minimize ground loop as well.

 

I use a ZWO174MM or a ZWO ASI1600MM without any problem.

The guider is used with the ONAG and its USB connection goes through my hub. I can also connect it directly to my PC if I wish, but I found no difference (I have an active cable from the guider to the hub/PC).

 

One intersecting experience I had with a ZWO ASI1600MM was at NEAIC.

I was running my optical bench for the demonstration of SkyGuard, all the day long. Every, said half a hour to one hour, I was losing the USB connection.

Since I ran the guider with an exposure time around 1 seconds, downloading each time 16 MPxiel (16 bits), that was generating a lot of USB traffic (no hub).

You could imaging my frustration at my booth with such repetitive crashes.

Well, by pure luck, the ZWO booth was next to mine.

I asked the owner if you could help. After running a diagnostic tool on my PC he gave me a new USB 3 cable to replace mine, the problem instantly disappeared!

I learned that day that USB cables are not made equal (I trashed mine, and I am still using his with success since)...

 

Problem is that you have to make every thing right, it takes only one problematic item to ruin your day, and it is hard to know which one.

 

We could certainly try SkyGuard (SKG).

Since the your first experience we have introduced a new GUI based to an intuitive HUD approach and made many improvements.

But I would think fixing your current issues is the top priority, so this can wait.

Then I'll be more than happy to work with you and get your valuable feedback about SKG, eventually.

 

Did you try to use an USB traffic analyzers (software) to look at what is going on?

That could be useful to spot issues and patterns.

 

I think that my partner David has some experience with that, I'll see with him if we could advice and help you on this matter. We are VERY BUSY but we'll do our best.

 

PLEASE DO NOT GIVE UP.


Edited by Corsica, 27 August 2019 - 11:27 PM.

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#72 jhayes_tucson

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Posted 27 August 2019 - 11:43 PM

Thank you Gaston!  I appreciate your encouragement.  You helped me to solve some serious problems that were ultimately due to a ground loop problem a few years ago so I know that you are very good at finding solutions.  Questions:

 

1)  Do you have customers who are using the ASI-1600MM-C Pro camera for guiding and if so, how do they have it configured?

 

2)  Grounding is an interesting point.  Could this be due to a ground loop?  It would be easy to insert an opto-isolator.

 

3)  There are no hubs involved in this connection so that's not the problem.  The camera is wired directly to the PC with a single cable.

 

4)  I can easily install an active USB2 cable as well.  I'm not 100% sure how long my cable is but it came with my FLI camera so I figured that it should be ok.  I'll try to measure a second one that I have in the shop tomorrow.  It might be a little longer than 3 m--and maybe more like 4 or 5 m.

 

Following the suggestions I've received in this thread, I've just completed my first experiment to see if a simple switch to USB2 would work.  We disconnected the USB3 cable to the camera and connected to a relatively new USB2 cable (that came with my FLI camera) directly to the ASI-1600.  It's cloudy so I set up the system with everything running (just as if it were clear) and started a 2 second guide cycle--just without an actual guide star.  It ran for approximately 3 hours before the camera hung up.  When it hung, I again had to disconnect the camera and reconnect it (via the MaximDL controls) to get the camera back online.  So...simply switching to a USB 2.0 cable does NOT fix the problem.

 

 

John



#73 tomb18

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 12:06 AM

I write software that uses USB devices in a high radio frequency environment. It is my opinion that USB is quite reliable.  This is based on several thousand users over a period of several years.  

One thing that does mess it up though is power management on a PC.  Nowhere have I read in this thread that all USB power management is turned off.  There are a couple of places for this.  One in the Windows control panel under Power, advanced there is an entry called USB Selective suspend.  This must be disabled.  In addition, in the device drivers advanced setting there is often an entry to prevent power management.

I would make sure that these are set correctly.

USB power management under Windows is a strange thing.  There doesn't seem to be any pattern as to when it will decide to enforce it.  However, when it does, the symptoms are just that the connection stops working. 

Also 5m is too long for a usb connection. If you are also using a tower like PC with jacks in the front of it, add another meter. Not only that, the USB connection is not shielded in the computer.  Use jacks that come right off the motherboard.

Other than these two items, I would look elsewhere.

Tom


  • Shlomi likes this

#74 Corsica

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 06:23 AM

Nowhere have I read in this thread that all USB power management is turned off.  There are a couple of places for this.  One in the Windows control panel under Power, advanced there is an entry called USB Selective suspend.

Thus is a very good point.

 

I think we have looked at this with John back then, but I not 100% sure, it worth to double check.

For information, after some Windows updates, I have experienced unwanted changes of my power settings, including selective USB suspension re-enabled...

As you mentioned this may lead to USB interruption after some time, maybe hours, leading to similar symptoms that John is experiencing.

 

Here a interresting link to USB power management under Windows:

 

https://www.pugetsys...e-Suspend-1190/

 

John,

 

I do not remember having customers with a ZWO ASI1600MM-pro for guiding, I'll check if there is any I could find. Most people use the un-cooled version.

 

You could use an USB optocoupler to break a ground loop, I have one for my mount (very slow USB traffic)

It may help if ground loop is the issue. However there are not cheap nor fast, I am not sure they will support high speed USB traffic, like with a camera.

 

My advise it to minimize any ground loop surface, induction from power sources (such as motors, power supply, switching equipment, ...) is proportional to the loop surface.

Consider star like topology, if you run USB cables you should keep them close to each other. Also it could be a good idea to connect all the requirements from a single electrical outlet, when feasible, maybe through a good and short extension cable with proper amp. rating.
I have seen cases where two outsets were wired to two different phases.

It is usually not a good thing as far as ground loop goes.


Edited by Corsica, 28 August 2019 - 06:32 AM.


#75 Terry White

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Posted 28 August 2019 - 07:20 AM

Tim,

Thanks for that analysis.  I agree that if there's a problem related to USB, it's most likely due to a voltage drop at the camera.  The ASI-1600MM-C Pro is supposed to only require 300 mA at 5VDC.  I don't actually know how many root buses are in my PC; but, this camera is the only device that's connected with a USB3 cable.  Everything else is USB2 and none of these are powered from the USB ports.  Again, all of this stuff worked fine for 4-6 weeks before the camera went wonky.  Maybe corrosion on the cable contacts could have caused an increase in contact resistance, which could cause the voltage at the camera to fall below threshold; but, it may be that something in the camera has simply failed.  I don't know.  The ultimate problem is that I can't keep flying back and forth experimenting.  I need to go out there with a big toolbox to definitively solve this problem and I'll make sure that a powered cable is in the box when I go.

 

John

John, I just fired up Device Manager (checked view devices by connection) and to my surprise I found out that our Nuvo 5501's have only one USB 3.0 root hub shared between all six USB ports (4 USB 3.0 ports and 2 USB 2.0 ports). In addition, the USB 3.0 root hub also services any bluetooth devices, if present.


Edited by Terry White, 28 August 2019 - 08:15 AM.



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