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What is it M 24

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#1 Roragi

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 01:29 AM

Discussing with a friend about what M 24 is, it is a peculiar object of the Messier catalog. It is not an open cluster, it is a galactic condensation. When I observe this with my traveler scope, with a large field of vision I see this great condensation seen with the naked eye. With the scope surrounded by dark nebulae I see a small group or brighter fluff, So far I thought that is M 24, since the size corresponds to the vast majority of catalogs in size refers 6 arcmin.

 

This item is also included in the new general catalog with the number 6603. Actually if M 24 is a galactic condensation and it is really what I see around 2 ° in the sky, because no catalog corresponds to that measure.

 

I would like someone to clarify the error and explain why this object is so peculiar in the catalog.

 

Roberto.



#2 greenstars3

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 02:07 AM

Check out Stephen James O'Meara's book called "The Messier Objects" Cambridge University Press and also you can get it from Sky and Telescope press. 

Stephen states "3x1 degree star cloud", "Commonly called the Small Sagittarius Star Cloud." he goes on to state that "M24 was formerly misidentified as the 11.4 magnitude star cluster (NGC) 6603...". 

Hope this helps.

 

Robert

 

edit : I added (NGC) to the quote


Edited by greenstars3, 05 September 2019 - 02:10 AM.

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#3 ManuelJ

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 03:13 AM

Quote from Charles Messier:

 

(June 20, 1764) `Cluster on the parallel of the preceding [M23] & near the end of the bow of Sagittarius, in the Milky Way: a large nebulosity in which there are many stars of different magnitudes: the light which is spread throughout this cluster is divided into several parts; it is the center of this cluster which has been determined [position].' (diam. 1d 30')



#4 beggarly

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 03:48 AM

Some info: https://www.universe...737/messier-24/

 

Edit: online catalog SIMBAD:

http://simbad.u-stra...ubmit=submit id

http://simbad.u-stra...ubmit=submit id


Edited by beggarly, 05 September 2019 - 04:15 AM.


#5 Roragi

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 03:49 AM

Quote from Charles Messier:

 

(June 20, 1764) `Cluster on the parallel of the preceding [M23] & near the end of the bow of Sagittarius, in the Milky Way: a large nebulosity in which there are many stars of different magnitudes: the light which is spread throughout this cluster is divided into several parts; it is the center of this cluster which has been determined [position].' (diam. 1d 30')

Here the cause of the discussion appeared, I do not try to know who is right, I seek to know why in an infinity of catalogs this object is cataloged with such a small size when it is the opposite.



#6 Roragi

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 03:50 AM

Check out Stephen James O'Meara's book called "The Messier Objects" Cambridge University Press and also you can get it from Sky and Telescope press. 

Stephen states "3x1 degree star cloud", "Commonly called the Small Sagittarius Star Cloud." he goes on to state that "M24 was formerly misidentified as the 11.4 magnitude star cluster (NGC) 6603...". 

Hope this helps.

 

Robert

 

edit : I added (NGC) to the quote

If I have the book, but in its data it says that it has a smaller size, when I get home I will read the description well.



#7 Special Ed

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 02:50 PM

According to SEDS, M24 is 90 arc minutes.  They also say that NGC 6603, an open cluster within M24, is sometimes misidentified as M24 in catalogs.


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#8 Dave Mitsky

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Posted 05 September 2019 - 11:35 PM

Here's the section on the M24 SEDS page to which Ed referred.

"Although this is what Messier discovered, it is interesting that, within this stellar cloud which is easily visible to the naked eye, there's a dim open cluster, NGC 6603, of magnitude 11. Many catalogs give the Messier number to this object, despite Messier's magnitude (4.5 .. 4.6), diameter (1.5 degrees), and his description as a "large nebulosity in which there are many stars of different magnitudes," which matches well with the cloud and not the cluster.

The stars, clusters and other objects of M24 form a portion of a spiral arm (the Sagittarius or Sagittarius-Carina arm) which fills a space of significant depth, at a distance of 10,000 to 16,000 light-years. This object is probably similar to the starcloud NGC 206 in our galactic neighbor, the Andromeda Galaxy (M31).

NED identifies IC 4715 with M24, taking into account a possible position error of +10 minutes in Right Ascension. The IC description, "extremely large cloud of stars with nebulosity", would at least match with the appearance of M24."

 

http://www.messier.s...org/m/m024.html


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#9 Starman1

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 02:02 PM

One of the mysteries, unfortunately.

However, M24 is identified with the small star cloud bounded by dark nebulae, visible to the naked eye as a slightly-peanut-shaped condensation in the Milky Way.

NGC 6603, the small cluster within it, is visible to very small scopes and is magnificent in the 12.5" at 304x.  Trumpler Class I,2,r. https://webda.physic...dirname=ngc6603

Another cluster, Collinder 469, is also within M24: https://webda.physic...i?dirname=cr469


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#10 Roragi

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 06:21 AM

I am really surprised that these failures have not been corrected, I think it is time to modify the small errors of the 240-year-old work. It was a mess to keep seeing how in many places the apparent size is so small. Definitely resolved.



#11 beatlejuice

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 01:16 PM

6603 is also quite unique in its appearance when viewed in binoviewers at high power with the LOA 3D eyepieces so that 6603 is placed in the background. 

 

Eric



#12 Tony Flanders

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 06:49 AM

I am really surprised that these failures have not been corrected ...


Welcome to astronomical data. It's full of errors, historical leftovers, ambiguities, and contradictions. That's part of what makes it fun.
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#13 Sarkikos

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 11:25 AM

M24 is a star cloud, a more condensed region of stars toward the central area of the Milky Way, our galaxy.  Not a mystery.

 

Mike



#14 Roragi

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 01:53 AM

M24 is a star cloud, a more condensed region of stars toward the central area of the Milky Way, our galaxy.  Not a mystery.

 

Mike

I think he read the title and hastened to write. I was not asking what if yes, but the errors in this object itself. That is the mystery.



#15 beggarly

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 10:22 AM

Quote: "... but the errors in this object itself. That is the mystery." Up to now you haven't mentioned which books / catalogs you consulted for the dimensions of M24. How do you want us to answer your question? Maybe your books are old. Book publishers don't publish new editions every time new data becomes available.

Consult an up-to-date online catalog:

http://simbad.u-stra...08A246FDED.main



#16 Roragi

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 10:39 AM

Quote: "... but the errors in this object itself. That is the mystery." Up to now you haven't mentioned which books / catalogs you consulted for the dimensions of M24. How do you want us to answer your question? Maybe your books are old. Book publishers don't publish new editions every time new data becomes available.

Consult an up-to-date online catalog:

http://simbad.u-stra...08A246FDED.main

Don't worry, they don't need to answer me, they've already done it, the doubts of the post are already resolved. My books are updated. for my term here.


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