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Takahashi FS-102 vs. Astro-Physics 105mm Traveler

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#1 Scott in NC

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 02:07 PM

Yes, I know this comparison has been posted before by other people, and in much more detail and much more eloquently expressed than I'm doing so here.  But I don't recall seeing any similar posts for several years, so I figured I'd revisit this topic by posting my recent experiences.

 

A little background first.  My Takahashi FS-102 (a 102 mm, f/8 doublet apochromatic refractor with an outer calcium fluoride element, inner mating element of unknown glass, and 820 mm focal length, manufactured in 2001) was purchased from a fellow CN'er a little over 5 years ago, in summer 2014.  At that time Takahashi wasn't even on my radar, and I already had a nice Stellarvue SV102ABV apo doublet with a LOMO OK-4 ED element and a lanthanum mating element.  But the Tak was listed at a nice price by a friend with whom I'd done multiple previous gear transactions, and so I jumped at the chance to buy it.  I figured I'd compare it to my prized Stellarvue, have some fun with it for a few months, and then resell it.  Well, suffice it to say that as nice as the SV scope was, it didn't take long before it was on the market, having been outclassed by the Tak.  The Tak was really that good!

 

Fast forward 5 years later, to the summer of 2019...

 

I wasn't really looking for another 4" refractor, especially since I was still enjoying my Tak FS-102, and frankly I had been spending much more time lately observing with a larger TEC 140.  Although the 4" Tak can get by with a smaller mount, I typically prefer using it on my robust DiscMounts DM6 and Berlebach Planet mount/tripod combo.  And if I'm already going to lug out that heavy mount and tripod, it's not really that much more effort to take out the bigger scope, the TEC 140 instead of the FS-102.  But as I was browsing AM one day this summer, an ad for a nice condition late model Astro-Physics Traveler (a 105mm f/5.8 apochromatic oil-spaced triplet with FPL-53 glass and 610mm focal length) showed up.  Its serial number and black pebble-finish indicated that it was produced during the final run of these scopes, in either late 2003 or early 2004.  And even though I hadn't been looking for another scope at that point in time, I had always wanted to try out this legendary scope, and I figured if I didn't jump now, the scope would likely be sold within hours.  Fortunately, I was the first to respond, and about 2 weeks later the scope arrived in excellent shape. It's much more compact than any 4" refractor that I've ever seen, and in fact my first reaction when I was unboxing it and saw the case for the first time was "no way could that case actually hold a 4" scope!"  In fact, the case is the same size (or maybe a little smaller) than the cases that I keep my FS-60Q and SV80S in.

 

I've now had several opportunities to test out the AP Traveler, and I'm really thrilled with my purchase.  But what I really wanted to find out was how it compared to my prized Tak FS-102.  Finally, last weekend I had the right combination of good weather and lack of other competing obligations, and I was able to spend a few hours comparing these two scopes side by side.  Although I've never weighed the two scopes, I believe the FS-102 may actually be a little lighter, as it's a doublet with slightly less aperture. But because it's quite a bit longer, IMO it really benefits from a beefier mount, as I'm someone who really likes my tripod and mount to be rock stable and get out of the way of my observing.  I set the FS-102 on the DM6 and Berlebach Planet, but the shorter AP Traveler turned out to be a perfect match for my lighter UA Unistar Deluxe mount and UA wood surveyor's tripod.

 

This mini-review is already getting long enough, so I'll cut it short, as I don't want to bore anyone by discussing a lengthy list of targets that I viewed that night.  I'd rather just post my general impressions here, so suffice it to say that I looked at all the usual summer Messiers plus Jupiter and Saturn and a few double stars.   All in all, I had a great time outdoors, spending a few hours comparing two really great 4" apos, in one corner the Japanese FS-102, and in the other corner the All-American AP Traveler.  Although the focal lengths of the two scopes are different, at 820mm vs. 610mm respectively, I was able to get similar magnifications by using different FL Ethoses.  And honestly, the views were very very close.  Had I not had the scopes side by side, I probably wouldn't have noticed any differences at all.  And even so, I'm still not convinced that any perceived differences may not have been merely due to momentary changes in seeing.  My wife thought some objects looked better in the Tak and some better in the AP.  My son told me he thought the AP had better images.  But the reality is that when you're dealing with two high end apos, any visual differences (real or imagined) are really just splitting hairs. 

 

What I like better about the AP is its compactness (due to its being f/5.8 vs. the f/8 Tak, and its sliding dew shield), and its superior focuser.  In my opinion, the AP 2.7" R&P focuser with FeatherTouch micro-pinion (FT MPA) dual-speed knobs is just as robust and smooth as a full FeatherTouch 3" R&P such as the FTF3035.  The Tak focuser is pretty smooth, but has a very slight amount of image shift that I haven't been able to fully tune out, and may be related to the way I've got the FT MPA set rather than due to any issues with the stock focuser.  I had never noticed that before I added the FT MPA on to the stock focuser.  I do have a FTF3035 which I've used before on the Tak, but I really like the way the stock focuser plus FT MPA looks, rather than the all-black FT, which looks good, but IMO not as good as the classic Tak look.

 

So the bottom line is that these are both two very nice 4" apo refractors.  For astrophotography, I don't doubt that the Traveler would likely be the better choice, but I'm a purely visual observer.  For my purposes the Traveler is likely overkill if one only considers the views that it gives, as the views are really very very close compared to the FS-102.  But given the extreme compactness of the Traveler, I'm pretty sure I'll be much more likely to take this one outside on a cold winter night, or on a night when I have to get up early for work the next morning and don't have much time to observe and lug a bunch of gear in and out of the house.  For those of you who already have a fine Tak doublet apo and are wondering what you're missing by not having an AP triplet apo, the answer really is not much.  While I won't go so far as to say that the AP is overpriced (since I place a high value on its mechanical finesse and extreme portability), I can say that the Tak is quite a bargain, especially at today's used market prices.  For now I'm glad that I've been lucky enough to be able to own both simultaneously.  Maybe one day I'll come to my senses and realize that I have too much cash invested in 4" apos and sell one or the other, but for now I plan to enjoy them both for a while. ubetcha.gif


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#2 Scott in NC

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 02:31 PM

Takahashi FS-102

 

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#3 Scott in NC

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 02:41 PM

Astro-Physics 105mm Traveler

 

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thumbnail 1.jpg

 

 


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#4 RAKing

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 03:11 PM

…. But given the extreme compactness of the Traveler, I'm pretty sure I'll be much more likely to take this one outside on a cold winter night, or a night when I have to get up early for work the next morning and don't have much time to observe and lug a bunch of gear in and out of the house....  

Scott,

 

Nice report, thanks for sharing!

 

One question - Are you sure you would rather take out the triplet instead of the doublet when you are pressed for time?

 

As much as I loved the Traveler and its compact, easy-to-manage size, it still has one extra piece of glass inside that also has to acclimate.

 

Cheers,

 

Ron


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#5 Scott in NC

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 03:15 PM

Good question, Ron.  I had the same thought while I was posting that, but to be honest, I'm not sure that a three-element oil-spaced lens will acclimate that much slower than a two-element air-spaced lens.  And one additional factor that may speed up acclimation is that the Traveler really doesn't have a true lens cell, per se.  The "lens cell" is nothing more than the end of the tube, which is very carefully machined to high tolerances. The triplet lens, with the elements sealed with Kapton tape (or something similar), merely slides into the open end of the tube and is held in place with a retaining ring just forward of the lens.

 

My guess is that acclimation times will be very similar.  But that will be fun to test out.  Yet another reason to keep both of these fine scopes at least through the winter!  I'll try to follow-up on my findings in a few months.


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#6 gnowellsct

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 03:21 PM

 

 

My guess is that acclimation times will be very similar.  But that will be fun to test out.  Yet another reason to keep both of these fine scopes at least throught the winter!  I'll try to follow-up on my findings in a few months.

I asked Roland about this at NEAF and he threw up his hands, he didn't think the common wisdom that doublets cool down faster had much value.  

 

Greg N



#7 Scott in NC

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 03:25 PM

I asked Roland about this at NEAF and he threw up his hands, he didn't think the common wisdom that doublets cool down faster had much value.  

 

Greg N

I suspect that's because there are too many other variables at play (e.g., air-spaced vs. oil-spaced, mass of glass involved, type of lens cell, aluminum vs. carbon fiber tube, etc.).  With all other things being as equal as possible, the common wisdom that doublets cool down faster is likely true.  But as we all know, all other things are rarely equal.



#8 RAKing

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 03:40 PM

I like Roland a lot and we have had quite a few nice discussions at NEAF over the years.  Perhaps the cold doesn't affect him as much as it does me - I suffered a touch of frostbite on the job many years ago and I am very sensitive to cold weather. 

 

I owned a Traveler for a few years and I know which of Scott's two scopes I would rather take outside on a cold January night.  It's not "common wisdom", it's just my personal experience.  

 

Cheers,

 

Ron


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#9 gjanke

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 03:49 PM

I asked Roland about this at NEAF and he threw up his hands, he didn't think the common wisdom that doublets cool down faster had much value.  

 

Greg N

He's right, its negligible.

 

Congrats Scott on the new scope.


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#10 samovu

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 04:12 PM

Congratulations on your new acquisition and yes, a smaller form factor does make it more “reachable” when it comes to deciding what to grab for a quick look. 

 

I do recall you getting your first Takahashi. I believe that your tag line at the time was “I never met a refractor that I didn’t like.” Enjoy and thanks for the mini review.

 

Cheers,

John


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#11 Scott in NC

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 04:31 PM

 

I do recall you getting your first Takahashi. I believe that your tag line at the time was “I never met a refractor that I didn’t like.”

Look again--it's still there! :lol:



#12 bobhen

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 05:38 PM

I think the remarkable aspect of the Traveler is that it is F5.9 and STILL equals the Tak at F8. Make the Traveler F8 and it would have even better color correction and should best the Tak visually.

 

The Traveler is the equal in visual, superior in imaging and more portable. They are some nice boxes to check.

 

Of course, if one is ONLY interested in visual and that is the only consideration and one doesn’t need the other attributes of the Traveler (imaging and portability) then the Tak is of course a really suburb refractor.

 

I have no interest in AP or Tak. I have given my money to both companies.

 

Bob


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#13 Nippon

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 06:54 PM

I have two 4" apos. One is a triplet the other is a doublet and have never been aware of any difference in the time required to acclimate. But I live in Florida so there is not a real big temperature difference between inside and outside.


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#14 payner

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 09:58 PM

Consider what Takahashi engineered working with only two lenses as opposed to the extra degrees of freedom afforded by the triplet, albeit at a design of f/5.8 as opposed to f/8. I think that is pretty remarkable for them to compare neck-and-neck.

 

I'm glad there are those telescope makers that concentrate on AP for application. Being a visual observer only, I'm certainly glad there are those that concentrate on instruments corrected for visual (actually some engineer an array of both types).

 

Nice compare, Scott. You'll have no problem selling either.

 

Randy


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#15 Scott in NC

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:23 PM

 

You'll have no problem selling either.

 

On the contrary, I believe I will.  Not in finding potential buyers, but rather with being able to let go of either one of these fine scopes! :grin:


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#16 Scott99

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:49 PM

nice story Scott!  Congrats on the new scope.  strange....I also had an FS102, Traveler, and SV102 Lomo f/8.7 refractor and compared them over a couple years, and we have the same name!  smile.gif

 

I found the FS102 and SV102 to perform the same optically - extremely sharp lenses, very slight bit of false color.  Looking at Rigel at 200x I saw a tiny bit of blue halo that flickered around with the seeing.  The SV102 was 13 pounds, the FS102 was 9 pounds, big difference, I sold the SV102.  

 

When I set up the Traveler and FS102 together, Jupiter looked very clean and white in the Traveler.  When I moved over to look through the FS102, the disk had a slightly yellow-orange tone to it, in comparison.   Something I had never noticed when using the FS102 by itself.  

 

But I ended up keeping the FS102 and selling the Traveler, mostly for the longer focal length - no need for a barlow at f/8.  Plus it was worth a ton of money and I needed a new mount for my bigger scope.  Maybe I would have discerned more differences in the lenses with more testing, but it was obvious they were both great, I tend to move on to observing and not get bogged down.  It will be interesting to hear your thoughts after you get some more time with them  waytogo.gif


Edited by Scott99, 07 September 2019 - 10:54 PM.

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#17 Scott in NC

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 10:56 PM

nice story Scott!  Congrats on the new scope.  strange....I also had an FS102, Traveler, and SV102 Lomo f/8.7 refractor and compared them over a couple years, and we have the same name!  smile.gif

 

And thanks for sharing your story too, Scott!


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#18 Scott99

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Posted 07 September 2019 - 11:00 PM

I should also say that carrying the Traveler through an airport with diagonal & eyepieces in the case killed my shoulder!  lol.gif    I only tried it once, haven't taken a scope on an airplane since. 


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#19 Scott in NC

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 07:36 PM

Ooohh...look what I found.  The observing accessory you never knew you needed: AP Traveler Digestive Support.  At only $33.50, this could easily be the cheapest AP product you'll ever buy! lol.gif


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#20 Chris Cook

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 08:25 PM

I enjoyed reading your report.  I owned a FS102 back in 2003.  Wonderful scope and optics.  While I did manage a few looks through it, I used mine primary for astrophotography.  As many others have commented, the stock Tak focuser is lacking but does the job.  Sold it to try a SV80S w/LOMO OK4 triplet.


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#21 gnowellsct

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Posted 14 September 2019 - 08:36 PM

On the contrary, I believe I will.  Not in finding potential buyers, but rather with being able to let go of either one of these fine scopes! grin.gif

If you like them keep them both.  They do two different things.  

 

The issues are the same as between the FS 128 and the GT130.  Doublet fluorite vs triplet apo, f/8.1 vs f/6 .  If four inch aperture is your sweet spot you might want to use the Tak when the planets are up.

 

Greg N


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#22 Erik Bakker

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 02:49 AM

My visual observations with a 4" Tak side by side with the Traveler favored the Tak. The Traveler being more traveler-friendly of course wink.gif


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#23 gnowellsct

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 08:07 AM

My visual observations with a 4" Tak side by side with the Traveler favored the Tak. The Traveler being more traveler-friendly of course wink.gif


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#24 Esso2112

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 09:01 AM

Great comparison and congrats on the Traveler. I remember when that ad was up and I kept thinking I really don’t need a third premium 4” refractor. I have been meaning to do my own 4” shootout between my TMB 100 f8 and my Tak FCT-100 f6.4. 

 

I would love love to see a shootout between the Tak FCT-100 and the AP Traveler. Two triplets with more similar focal lengths. 


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#25 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 09:13 AM

What’s the risk of having an outer fluorite element?   Most of them seem to have the fluorite as the inside, correct?




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