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Are Televue Naglers better than ES 82’s

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#1 Grounddweller

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 11:01 AM

I have posted this title not to be incendiary, but because I have to ask if anyone else has experienced this. I have tried several variants of the ES 82 line and have found the field of view to be largely unusable unless I move my head waaaay over from side to side. I thought that the 68° threshold was as far as I could use comfortably and have several Panoptics and Radians in my stable. However, I just acquired a 13mm Nagler (type6) with several other eyepieces, and I thought I was just going to move it along. However, after trying it out, I noticed the FOV was so much easier to use to its fullest extent than the ES. Is this possible, or am I just misrepresenting the impression I can recall. Mind you, the sizes I used were not equivalents to the 13mm (6.7mm, 8.8mm, 30mm) but it is perplexing and intriguing at the same time, so much so I am considering replacing a few EPs that are close to the same size with this one piece. I realize that my experience is unique to my circumstances ( eyeglass wearer with moderate astigmatism but more comfortable not wearing them during viewing) but I would welcome any observations people have experienced that may be similar to my own. I should add that I primarily view with refractors but do have a Newtonian and a Mak/Cass. I will also add that i have both a 24mm ES 68 and a TV24mm Panoptic and can see no discernible difference in casual viewing.


Edited by Grounddweller, 13 September 2019 - 11:03 AM.


#2 Neptune

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 11:31 AM

I have been researching this topic as well.  I so wanted the ES line to be everything the Televue Nagler's are.  I hear that the ES are close in image quality but have a little more scatter. The general consensus was you will have to try them to see if you like them. I have as yet have not jumped on either the T6's or the ES 82's.  I am still using my vintage T2's and T5 Terminagler.


Edited by Neptune, 13 September 2019 - 07:03 PM.


#3 Spikey131

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 11:38 AM

I have posted this title not to be incendiary, but because I have to ask if anyone else has experienced this. I have tried several variants of the ES 82 line and have found the field of view to be largely unusable unless I move my head waaaay over from side to side. I thought that the 68° threshold was as far as I could use comfortably and have several Panoptics and Radians in my stable. However, I just acquired a 13mm Nagler (type6) with several other eyepieces, and I thought I was just going to move it along. However, after trying it out, I noticed the FOV was so much easier to use to its fullest extent than the ES. Is this possible, or am I just misrepresenting the impression I can recall. Mind you, the sizes I used were not equivalents to the 13mm (6.7mm, 8.8mm, 30mm) but it is perplexing and intriguing at the same time, so much so I am considering replacing a few EPs that are close to the same size with this one piece. I realize that my experience is unique to my circumstances ( eyeglass wearer with moderate astigmatism but more comfortable not wearing them during viewing) but I would welcome any observations people have experienced that may be similar to my own. I should add that I primarily view with refractors but do have a Newtonian and a Mak/Cass. I will also add that i have both a 24mm ES 68 and a TV24mm Panoptic and can see no discernible difference in casual viewing.

Your issue is not whether the Naglers are better.

 

Your issue is with short eye relief and sunken eye lens of the ES eyepieces.  These are not the best eyepieces for eyeglass wearers.  Neither are Type 6 Naglers.  Curious that the 12mm ER of the Nagler 13 isn't a problem for you.

 

You really should try the Delos or DeLite line. They all have 20mm of ER.


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#4 StarryHill

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 11:43 AM

I bought several ES 82s years ago and really wanted them to be a more affordable alternative to Naglers. But, sorry, the poor eye relief and edge-of-field brightening with some models made me realize that, at least with these, you get what you pay for. (I don't wear glasses when viewing.) That being said, I've experienced better customer support from ES than TV... had to replace some eye guards... ES mailed them to me right away without charge.... TV charged and then sent the wrong one and insisted that I mail it back at my expense. So, I very much want to like ES82s but Naglers are better. However, Morpheus EPs have nearly as much FOV, superb eye relief and are cheaper... something to consider.


Edited by StarryHill, 13 September 2019 - 12:23 PM.

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#5 RAKing

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 12:39 PM

However, Morpheus EPs have nearly as much FOV, superb eye relief and are cheaper... something to consider.

You might also mention that the Morpheus are clear and sharp to the edge. cool.gif 

 

I loved my Naglers and thought they were better corrected at the edge than any of the ES eyepieces I tried.  But even though I do not wear eyeglasses, I have trouble with the tight eye relief of the T6 Naglers.

 

So I have dropped back to the Delos, Pentax XW, and Baader Morpheus and don't feel like I am missing anything at all.  There are all comfortable eyepiece series - and no eyeball gymnastics are necessary.

 

Cheers,

 

Ron


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#6 fcathell

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 12:39 PM

I've come to the personal conclusion that anything over 70* AFOV is just not useful due to reasons mentioned above among others. Yes, the 82 and 100 degree eyepieces give you the "porthole into space" effect, but I don't think the extra $$ is worth it.

 

Frank


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#7 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 01:02 PM

I have posted this title not to be incendiary, but because I have to ask if anyone else has experienced this. I have tried several variants of the ES 82 line and have found the field of view to be largely unusable unless I move my head waaaay over from side to side. I thought that the 68° threshold was as far as I could use comfortably and have several Panoptics and Radians in my stable. However, I just acquired a 13mm Nagler (type6) with several other eyepieces, and I thought I was just going to move it along. However, after trying it out, I noticed the FOV was so much easier to use to its fullest extent than the ES. Is this possible, or am I just misrepresenting the impression I can recall. Mind you, the sizes I used were not equivalents to the 13mm (6.7mm, 8.8mm, 30mm) but it is perplexing and intriguing at the same time, so much so I am considering replacing a few EPs that are close to the same size with this one piece. I realize that my experience is unique to my circumstances ( eyeglass wearer with moderate astigmatism but more comfortable not wearing them during viewing) but I would welcome any observations people have experienced that may be similar to my own. I should add that I primarily view with refractors but do have a Newtonian and a Mak/Cass. I will also add that i have both a 24mm ES 68 and a TV24mm Panoptic and can see no discernible difference in casual viewing.

 

Your experience is similar to mine when comparing the 82 degree and 100 degree ESs with the Naglers and Ethos's. As Spiky said, it's a question of eye relief and the sunken eye lens. 

 

Jon


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#8 rkelley8493

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 02:44 PM

I have posted this title not to be incendiary, but because I have to ask if anyone else has experienced this. I have tried several variants of the ES 82 line and have found the field of view to be largely unusable unless I move my head waaaay over from side to side. I thought that the 68° threshold was as far as I could use comfortably and have several Panoptics and Radians in my stable. However, I just acquired a 13mm Nagler (type6) with several other eyepieces, and I thought I was just going to move it along. However, after trying it out, I noticed the FOV was so much easier to use to its fullest extent than the ES. Is this possible, or am I just misrepresenting the impression I can recall. Mind you, the sizes I used were not equivalents to the 13mm (6.7mm, 8.8mm, 30mm) but it is perplexing and intriguing at the same time, so much so I am considering replacing a few EPs that are close to the same size with this one piece. I realize that my experience is unique to my circumstances ( eyeglass wearer with moderate astigmatism but more comfortable not wearing them during viewing) but I would welcome any observations people have experienced that may be similar to my own. I should add that I primarily view with refractors but do have a Newtonian and a Mak/Cass. I will also add that i have both a 24mm ES 68 and a TV24mm Panoptic and can see no discernible difference in casual viewing.

Yea, judging by your post, I'll also say that the Delos, XW, and Morpheus would probably be a better fit for you. Some people have issues with wide field EP's because of astigmatism. If you find 68° to be comfortable, you will more than likely find 72° [+/-] comfortable as well. I don't wear glasses but I prefer long eye relief for the viewing comfort & larger eye lenses.

To answer your question, yes, but some are better than others. The 31T5 is a beautiful beast, and the FOV feels much more expansive compared to the 30/82° due to the fact that its eye lens isn't recessed like the latter. The colors are much more vivid as well, and the sky background is darker. Don't get me wrong, the 30/82° is a very good eyepiece, but the 31T5 is close to perfect. It looks like the Explore Sci 82's are an imitation of the 31T5, 26T5, and then the Type 6's in the shorter focal lengths. However, I consider the Type 4 Naglers in a different class because of their long eye relief design. It's not really a fair fight with the 22T4 & 17T4 up against the 24/82° & 18/82°. The 22T4 is my absolute favorite eyepiece that I own. 


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#9 zirkel 2

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 03:03 PM

Yea, judging by your post, I'll also say that the Delos, XW, and Morpheus would probably be a better fit for you. Some people have issues with wide field EP's because of astigmatism. If you find 68° to be comfortable, you will more than likely find 72° [+/-] comfortable as well.

 

My choice :

 

Oculaires_gamme_perso%2B%25287%2529.jpg

 

All my eyepieces ( except Zeiss ) have an apparent field 70° to 76° and for a fundamental reason: the apparent field possible for all of our eyes is 60 ° , to avoid too effect "porthole" and turn continually my eyeball so you can see all the apparent field, I prefer to see the entire field at once is more comfortable and less tiring, it helps to focus on the object observed.

 

My blog opinion : https://regardsversl...doculaires.html


Edited by zirkel 2, 14 September 2019 - 06:15 AM.

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#10 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 03:21 PM

We did a blind test between the ES 82s and NT6 at my dark site when the ES 82s first became popular.  We couldn't tell in a 16" f/4.5 Dob which was which.  YMMV.


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#11 25585

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 03:34 PM

Of the over 70° eyepieces, Baader Morpheus at a near-Nagler 76°, and Orion LHD LER 80° the combine comfort and performance, as twin attributes together, better than any Nagler.

 

Still trying out my Celestron Axiom LX, which is 31mm 82°, a comparitively non-recessed eye lens, and shell design influenced by 1980s sci-fi weaponry. But no cut offs or SAEP, its eye relief is less than advertised. Nobody knows if its UWA, original Axiom, Nagler, or its own optical design, an enigmatic eyepiece. Old CN threads compare its performance to that of a 31T5.

 

The big Luminos equivalent is not held in such high regard but looks similar.


Edited by 25585, 13 September 2019 - 03:35 PM.


#12 nva

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 03:38 PM

We did a blind test between the ES 82s and NT6 at my dark site when the ES 82s first became popular.  We couldn't tell in a 16" f/4.5 Dob which was which.  YMMV.

Be careful talking like this or the Tele-Illuminati are going to disappear you.


Edited by nva, 13 September 2019 - 03:40 PM.

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#13 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 03:45 PM

Be careful talking like this or the Tele-Illuminati are going to disappear you.

Not afraid.  I can bash the bashers until the thread is done, if necessary.  I stand by my post.  The observers were very experienced, BTW.


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#14 rkelley8493

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 03:50 PM

We did a blind test between the ES 82s and NT6 at my dark site when the ES 82s first became popular.  We couldn't tell in a 16" f/4.5 Dob which was which.  YMMV.

I actually really liked the 8.8/82° eyepiece. I did a side by side comparison with it vs. the ES 9/100°, and the 8.8 had a brighter, sharper image. I ended up keeping the 9/100 because I liked the larger eye lens and found it more comfortable to use, but I still miss that 8.8/82° [seller's remorse bangbang.gif ].


Edited by rkelley8493, 13 September 2019 - 03:51 PM.

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#15 25585

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 04:07 PM

I actually really liked the 8.8/82° eyepiece. I did a side by side comparison with it vs. the ES 9/100°, and the 8.8 had a brighter, sharper image. I ended up keeping the 9/100 because I liked the larger eye lens and found it more comfortable to use, but I still miss that 8.8/82° [seller's remorse bangbang.gif ].

This is why I have as many eps as I do, accumulated over time. Some I have withdrawn from sale, even after interest has been expressed... "the Meade stays" sweaty.gif whew.gif


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#16 John Fitzgerald

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 04:12 PM

I actually really liked the 8.8/82° eyepiece. I did a side by side comparison with it vs. the ES 9/100°, and the 8.8 had a brighter, sharper image. I ended up keeping the 9/100 because I liked the larger eye lens and found it more comfortable to use, but I still miss that 8.8/82° [seller's remorse bangbang.gif ].

I have the 8.8/82 deg also.  I like it.  I have even used it in a 2.5x Powermate, and neither one of them exploded.tongue2.gif


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#17 nva

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 04:18 PM

I don't wear my glasses which correct for astigmatism to observe and have no complaints for any of the 82's in my dobs or refractors. I've been told astigmatism is less bothersome with smaller exit pupils and it would be worth pointing out that you can get the ES 82's for about 60% less then their Nagler counterparts right now with maximum sale. Maybe a mixed lot should be considered?



#18 Grounddweller

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 04:24 PM

I bought several ES 82s years ago and really wanted them to be a more affordable alternative to Naglers. But, sorry, the poor eye relief and edge-of-field brightening with some models made me realize that, at least with these, you get what you pay for. (I don't wear glasses when viewing.) That being said, I've experienced better customer support from ES than TV... had to replace some eye guards... ES mailed them to me right away without charge.... TV charged and then sent the wrong one and insisted that I mail it back at my expense. So, I very much want to like ES82s but Naglers are better. However, Morpheus EPs have nearly as much FOV, superb eye relief and are cheaper... something to consider.

I had the same experience with ES and TV in the customer service aspect, with the same exact issue! ES has TV beat on customer service. As far as the Morpheus is concerned, I really liked the 17.5 I had BUT...I liked the view in my TV 18mm Radian, so I sold the Morpheus. I will say the eye guard extender for the Morpheus was a winner! 


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#19 nva

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 04:25 PM

My choice :

 

 

 

All my eyepieces ( except Zeiss ) have an apparent field 70° to 76° and for a fundamental reason: the apparent field possible for all of our eyes is 60 ° , to avoid too effect "porthole" and turn continually my eyeball so you can see all the apparent field, I prefer to see the entire field at once is more comfortable and less tiring, it helps to focus on the object observed.

 

My blog opinion : https://regardsversl...doculaires.html

Uh I think you are misinterpreting this, your eyes see about 150 degrees each, if we only saw 60 degrees we would have no peripheral vision and very little depth perception, think about it.

 

That wikipedia article breaks down the visual quadrants which is important when your trying to figure out where somebody has a stroke or visual problem, you need to ADD two of those numbers together "In monocular vision, the nasal visual field is narrower than the temporal field. Due to the presence of the nose, the visual field of the lower nasal quadrant is the smallest. The extreme limits of the nasal field are on average 50 to 60  ° whereas they are 80 to 90  ° on the temporal side, 45 to 50  ° on the top and 60 to 80  ° on the lower side."

 

So its 90 + 60 from nasal to temporal and 80 + 50 from superior to inferior.

 

A basic thing everyone talks about is using averted vision which is literally using your peripheral vision outside the macular sweet spot your thinking about to see things better.


Edited by nva, 13 September 2019 - 04:40 PM.

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#20 Grounddweller

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 04:32 PM

Yea, judging by your post, I'll also say that the Delos, XW, and Morpheus would probably be a better fit for you. Some people have issues with wide field EP's because of astigmatism. If you find 68° to be comfortable, you will more than likely find 72° [+/-] comfortable as well. I don't wear glasses but I prefer long eye relief for the viewing comfort & larger eye lenses.

I did have the Morpheus 17.5, I really liked it, much more so than the Hyperions I had years ago, but for some reason the feel just didn’t surpass my 18mm Radian ( I know that sounds weird) so away it went when someone was looking for one, I have not missed it.


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#21 Grounddweller

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 04:38 PM

Your issue is not whether the Naglers are better.

 

Your issue is with short eye relief and sunken eye lens of the ES eyepieces.  These are not the best eyepieces for eyeglass wearers.  Neither are Type 6 Naglers.  Curious that the 12mm ER of the Nagler 13 isn't a problem for you.

 

You really should try the Delos or DeLite line. They all have 20mm of ER.

I don’t wear my glasses when viewing because the bifocal gets in the way. I have heard good things about the Delos and DeLite lines, I may have to try those, but I gotta convince the missus that I NEED new eyepieces


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#22 Miranda2525

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 05:00 PM

I've come to the personal conclusion that anything over 70* AFOV is just not useful due to reasons mentioned above among others. Yes, the 82 and 100 degree eyepieces give you the "porthole into space" effect, but I don't think the extra $$ is worth it.

 

Frank

The Baader Morpheus are 77 degrees as measured by a few experts. Eye relief is great in them all and you do get that porthole into space effect. The same goes for the TV Delos which are 72 degrees.


Edited by Miranda2525, 13 September 2019 - 05:02 PM.

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#23 mac57

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 05:12 PM

All I can say is that TeleVue has the best coatings out there IMO.  My first generation Nagler is better coated than many new offerings.  Less scatter, etc.  Mark


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#24 Jon Isaacs

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 05:40 PM

Of the over 70° eyepieces, Baader Morpheus at a near-Nagler 76°, and Orion LHD LER 80° the combine comfort and performance, as twin attributes together, better than any Nagler.

 

Still trying out my Celestron Axiom LX, which is 31mm 82°, a comparitively non-recessed eye lens, and shell design influenced by 1980s sci-fi weaponry. But no cut offs or SAEP, its eye relief is less than advertised. Nobody knows if its UWA, original Axiom, Nagler, or its own optical design, an enigmatic eyepiece. Old CN threads compare its performance to that of a 31T5.

 

The big Luminos equivalent is not held in such high regard but looks similar.

 

Comfort is subjective. You are someone who observes with glasses and for you, eye relief is the first priority.

 

I don't need glasses to observe and it seems the original poster prefers to observe without them. For me, the performance-comfort equation does not require close to 20 mm, all I need is enough so I can view the entire field at once. I find this possible with the T-6 Naglers, not so much with the 82s because of the recessed eye lens. 

 

Neither work for you.

 

Jon


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#25 jeffmac

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Posted 13 September 2019 - 06:32 PM

While I agree largely with the favorable sentiments regarding the Morpheus, don't sell the Naglers short. They are the Rodney Dangerfield of the current wide field offerings out there. I do not wear glasses when I observe and I observe seated. Shorter eye relief eyepieces are much more comfortable if you are seated. The Type 6s are very nice this way, as long as you are not wearing glasses. While I own both, the Morpheus is much more immersive.

Edited by jeffmac, 13 September 2019 - 06:33 PM.



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