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Canon 650d or Nikon d5300?

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#1 Zandrew

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 09:56 PM

I have come across an excellent deal locally for Canon 650d with 2 lenses and low shutter count but most members are suggesting the Nikon d5300. Considering I can get the 650d for less then $300 is it worth still going with d5300?



#2 tonyt

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 10:25 PM

Depends how much value you place on low noise levels. The Nikon can make images without darks because there is a lot less noise in long exposures than the Canon. 



#3 44maurer

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 11:33 PM

do you already have anything invested in Canon?  I currently own canon equipment for normal photography and wanted to add a dslr to my Astro. I picked up a used Astro modified canon. After seeing the noise and hearing about the d5300’s ‘lack’ of noise, I wish I would have gone with the Nikon. Now I will say that I have no experience with the Nikon, only going by what others have said.

 

i guess the point is, don’t let other factors mess up your decision. If you find/know that one is better, get the better one.



#4 bobzeq25

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 01:25 AM

I have come across an excellent deal locally for Canon 650d with 2 lenses and low shutter count but most members are suggesting the Nikon d5300. Considering I can get the 650d for less then $300 is it worth still going with d5300?

"Worth it", is always a personal decision.  You can make nice images with the 650D.  The D5300 is better, but not dramatically so.

 

Serious, experienced imagers here tend to be concerned about small differences.  Either would be fine for "getting your feet wet".  <smile>

 

If the cost savings means you can get a better mount, go with the Canon.


Edited by bobzeq25, 16 September 2019 - 01:30 AM.

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#5 Jerry Lodriguss

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:09 AM

Depends. :-)

 

What is your budget?

 

How much is the D5300?

 

What lenses are included?  Are they good for astrophotography?  Are they dogs?

 

Are you going to use it primarily for astrophotography or mostly family/other stuff and astro just a couple times, dabbling, then its too cold in the winter and too many bugs in the summer, so you're not going to use it much for astro?

 

How serious are you about astrophotography?

 

Like Bob says, both would be absolutely fine for both daytime and astro, and to be brutally honest, the tech in these cameras is going to be much better than your skill level when you are starting out, so they are both something you can spend a lot of time with before you outgrow them, especially if you are on a tight budget.

 

Jerry



#6 Kendahl

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 09:06 AM

Can we turn this question around? Does Canon sell anything with a sensor comparable to the D5300's?



#7 Jerry Lodriguss

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 11:10 AM

Can we turn this question around? Does Canon sell anything with a sensor comparable to the D5300's?

Define criteria. Is cost a consideration? Comparable pixel sizes?  Normalize for pixels size if not?

 

Define how many photons dancing on the head of a pin make a difference?  For example, how would you weight read noise if you plan on exposing at ISO 1600?  How would you weight read noise if you could always shoot your subs sky-noise limited.

 

There are a thousand things you would have to put in a weighted matrix to attempt to decide this question.

 

You are also assuming the operator is capable of executing proficiently well enough to notice the difference. Most users in this price range are not. 

 

But, basically, to answer your question in the most general terms = yes.  In pure tech specs, probably not.

 

Jerry


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#8 ssa2294

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 03:15 PM

First, (someone please correct me if I am wrong please) I just recently read where a Nikon can only use Nikon lenses, but a Canon can use an adapter and use other's such as Nikon. I purchased a d5300 for my start into this hobby, and while I still like the camera I do have some regrets not buying a Canon. First, while there is some clip in filters for d5300 that can be purchased from a company in Hong Kong, it is the Canon clip in that you can easily find in North America. 

 

A second factor to consider is something I found out after the fact because I did not know enough at the time of purchase. While the d5300 does have that tilt/swivel LCD and Live View, the most important thing it is missing is exposure simulation. As I ventured out more and more this summer I came to really miss this. At our imaging locations I often was next to people who had Canon's, who used their Live View + Bahtinov masks to focus. With the d5300 I had to really most of the time on using Backyard Nikon to assist me. 

 

Lastly, have you considered that the Canon is 18MP while the Nikon is 24MP? Most I know will ignore that, but for me the resolution is important as I look for my images not just to be display on a computer but rather printed up to hang.

 

p.s. I am actually considering in future either a Canon SL2 or T6i. But I will say if you do end up going with the d5300, dont care about using live view simulated exposure, you won't regret it as this is an awesome camera.



#9 TelescopeGreg

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 05:24 PM

Can we turn this question around? Does Canon sell anything with a sensor comparable to the D5300's?

Or perhaps, where does one go to find the detailed specs on a DSLR's sensor?  We see (and I have asked) questions about "upgrading" from a DSLR to either a different model or to an astro-specific camera, and some get "better" or "worse" sorts of answers.  But I haven't found an actual source for the DSLR numerical data.  Astro cameras, yes; DSLRs, no.  Where does one get this data?

 

(My own selfish reason for posting this is trying to understand what capabilities I have with my Nikon D3200.  Yeah, seems not the best camera, but I want numbers...)



#10 tonyt

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 06:34 PM

Lots of numbers here Greg: http://www.photonstophotos.net/



#11 jgraham

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:00 PM

The D5300 has an excellent track record, but I do loves my trusty full spectrum modified 600D. Either way you'll end up with a nice camera.

#12 pfloyd36069

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:36 PM

Ssa2294, have you turned on the "manual movie settings" option? This will let you go up to 1/60th of a second exposure while in live view. Not a lot but it does help.

#13 Jerry Lodriguss

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:42 PM

First, (someone please correct me if I am wrong please) I just recently read where a Nikon can only use Nikon lenses, but a Canon can use an adapter and use other's such as Nikon. I purchased a d5300 for my start into this hobby, and while I still like the camera I do have some regrets not buying a Canon. First, while there is some clip in filters for d5300 that can be purchased from a company in Hong Kong, it is the Canon clip in that you can easily find in North America. 

 

A second factor to consider is something I found out after the fact because I did not know enough at the time of purchase. While the d5300 does have that tilt/swivel LCD and Live View, the most important thing it is missing is exposure simulation. As I ventured out more and more this summer I came to really miss this. At our imaging locations I often was next to people who had Canon's, who used their Live View + Bahtinov masks to focus. With the d5300 I had to really most of the time on using Backyard Nikon to assist me. 

 

Lastly, have you considered that the Canon is 18MP while the Nikon is 24MP? Most I know will ignore that, but for me the resolution is important as I look for my images not just to be display on a computer but rather printed up to hang.

 

p.s. I am actually considering in future either a Canon SL2 or T6i. But I will say if you do end up going with the d5300, dont care about using live view simulated exposure, you won't regret it as this is an awesome camera.

Canon DSLRs can use old Nikon F-mount lenses. But you can't use any Canon lenses on Nikon DSLR bodies because the register distance is shorter. On the new mirrorless cameras, you can should be able to use both on either, if you can find an adapter.

 

The D5300 has simulated live view exposure (at least down to the framing rate).

 

Shooting Menu > Movie Settings > Manual Movie Settings > set to ON.

 

Jerry


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#14 Jerry Lodriguss

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:50 PM

Or perhaps, where does one go to find the detailed specs on a DSLR's sensor?  We see (and I have asked) questions about "upgrading" from a DSLR to either a different model or to an astro-specific camera, and some get "better" or "worse" sorts of answers.  But I haven't found an actual source for the DSLR numerical data.  Astro cameras, yes; DSLRs, no.  Where does one get this data?

 

(My own selfish reason for posting this is trying to understand what capabilities I have with my Nikon D3200.  Yeah, seems not the best camera, but I want numbers...)

Bill Claff has everything except thermal signal (I think).

 

http://www.photonsto...acteristics.htm

 

Here's your D3200 compared to a D5300.

 

The ones to pay the most attention to are Quantum efficiency (QE), and full well, and the two noise values.

 

Don't pay any attention to Unity ISO or ISO Invariant ISO.

 

And here you can compare test scenes:

 

https://www.dpreview...udio-test-scene

 

Be sure to use raw and click on the "comp" comparison icon at upper right so you equalize the pixel size.

 

Look at the last two darkest steps in the step wedge to see what is most important for astrophotography. Look at the noise at different ISOs, and how well you can differentiate those two steps.  You can even download the original raw file and compare.

 

Jerry


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#15 TelescopeGreg

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 08:19 PM

Bill Claff has everything except thermal signal (I think).

 

http://www.photonsto...acteristics.htm

 

Here's your D3200 compared to a D5300.

 

The ones to pay the most attention to are Quantum efficiency (QE), and full well, and the two noise values.

 

Don't pay any attention to Unity ISO or ISO Invariant ISO.

 

And here you can compare test scenes:

 

https://www.dpreview...udio-test-scene

 

Be sure to use raw and click on the "comp" comparison icon at upper right so you equalize the pixel size.

 

Look at the last two darkest steps in the step wedge to see what is most important for astrophotography. Look at the noise at different ISOs, and how well you can differentiate those two steps.  You can even download the original raw file and compare.

 

Jerry

Bingo!  Exactly what I was looking for, thanks!



#16 ssa2294

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 08:24 PM

Canon DSLRs can use old Nikon F-mount lenses. But you can't use any Canon lenses on Nikon DSLR bodies because the register distance is shorter. On the new mirrorless cameras, you can should be able to use both on either, if you can find an adapter.

 

The D5300 has simulated live view exposure (at least down to the framing rate).

 

Shooting Menu > Movie Settings > Manual Movie Settings > set to ON.

 

Jerry

 

Jerry, thank you so much!!! I had done a Google search and found a couple of threads at a forum that said to do the opposite! So I set it to OFF and got nothing. Later I continued searching for a solution and found another thread somewhere of people complaining about how Nikons can not do live exposure simulation. Over at BYN forum there was a thread on this that pretty much was the same. After seeing this I tried it out and sure enough I can see the adjustment of ISO from 100 to 12800. Only caveat is the shutter tops out at 1/60 in live view.



#17 Jerry Lodriguss

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 08:32 AM

Jerry, thank you so much!!! I had done a Google search and found a couple of threads at a forum that said to do the opposite! So I set it to OFF and got nothing. Later I continued searching for a solution and found another thread somewhere of people complaining about how Nikons can not do live exposure simulation. Over at BYN forum there was a thread on this that pretty much was the same. After seeing this I tried it out and sure enough I can see the adjustment of ISO from 100 to 12800. Only caveat is the shutter tops out at 1/60 in live view.

You are welcome!

 

So, are you saying you got conflicting and incorrect information on the internet?  Uh-oh! lol.gif

 

It's all about trusted sources these days. I have a list of about 3 people here on cloudy nights that I trust. When they write something I pay attention.

 

If you put your video movie mode to 1920x1080 at 24 frames per second, you can get it down to 1/30th second.

 

What is a "gotcha" is that when you go out of live view, it will default to the movie shutter speed.  So if you have the camera set to manual, 1 second exposure, and you turn on live view, when you turn it off, the camera will stay at 1/30th, and you have to manually change it back to 1 second.

 

Jerry



#18 bobzeq25

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 12:42 PM

Can we turn this question around? Does Canon sell anything with a sensor comparable to the D5300's?

Some late model Canons have good sensors, but cost significantly more than the D5300/5500/5600.



#19 bobzeq25

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Posted 17 September 2019 - 12:46 PM

First, (someone please correct me if I am wrong please) I just recently read where a Nikon can only use Nikon lenses, but a Canon can use an adapter and use other's such as Nikon. I purchased a d5300 for my start into this hobby, and while I still like the camera I do have some regrets not buying a Canon. First, while there is some clip in filters for d5300 that can be purchased from a company in Hong Kong, it is the Canon clip in that you can easily find in North America. 

 

A second factor to consider is something I found out after the fact because I did not know enough at the time of purchase. While the d5300 does have that tilt/swivel LCD and Live View, the most important thing it is missing is exposure simulation. As I ventured out more and more this summer I came to really miss this. At our imaging locations I often was next to people who had Canon's, who used their Live View + Bahtinov masks to focus. With the d5300 I had to really most of the time on using Backyard Nikon to assist me. 

 

Lastly, have you considered that the Canon is 18MP while the Nikon is 24MP? Most I know will ignore that, but for me the resolution is important as I look for my images not just to be display on a computer but rather printed up to hang.

 

p.s. I am actually considering in future either a Canon SL2 or T6i. But I will say if you do end up going with the d5300, dont care about using live view simulated exposure, you won't regret it as this is an awesome camera.

I don't really understand this.  My D5500 focuses fine with a Bahtinov, using LiveView (which is zoomable) and a bright star.  Another option is to maximize visibility of dim stars, which is what I generally do, it's simpler.

 

The thing about megapixels is that resolution in DSO astrophotography is usually limited by seeing, going from 18 to 24 megapixels don't mean much.  If  we're talking APS-C chips, more MP means smaller pixels, less signal to noise ratio.  Which is just as important for good images.  You can address the issue with more total imaging time.  Long exposure AP of DSOs is not at all like terrestrial photography, imagers look at pixel size, not megapixels.

 

This is a complicated business.  You need to look at many factors.


Edited by bobzeq25, 17 September 2019 - 12:52 PM.


#20 Zandrew

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 03:59 AM

So is there a huge difference between the d5200 and the d5300 as well? 



#21 bobzeq25

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 04:18 PM

So is there a huge difference between the d5200 and the d5300 as well? 

Big.  The major one is that the 5200 has the black point set at zero.  That simply chops off half your bias, making calibrating the lights uncertain.  There are minor things like the fact that the 5300 has no moire filter, those tend to blur images.  I think the sensor is different.

 

With the prices of the D5300/5500/5600 so low, a D5200 makes no sense.  I'd get a Canon instead, for even less money.


Edited by bobzeq25, 18 September 2019 - 04:18 PM.


#22 tonyt

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 07:02 PM

I started with the Canon 600D because that was the family camera - got a few nice images of the brightest DSO's in winter but noise ruined images in summer.

 

Shifting to the Nikon D5600 greatly increased my interest in imaging because it has dramatically less noise than the 600D. The D5600 is good enough that I have no plans to move to a dedicated cooled camera and I just bought a used Nikon D750 which has even lower noise levels.


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#23 17.5Dob

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 07:22 PM

So is there a huge difference between the d5200 and the d5300 as well? 

HUGE difference !!! The D5200 shares the same sensor as the D7100 an oddball manufactured by Toshiba instead of Sony, and the noise is beyond horrific.......Even normal daylight shots were effected with severe noise in the shadows.

Stay away from the D5200/D7100.


Edited by 17.5Dob, 18 September 2019 - 07:22 PM.



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