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Mounting C11 edge on EQ6R-pro

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#1 msacco

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 05:51 PM

Hello, I have an 11" hyperstar I can get from a friend almost for free, so I'm currently thinking about getting a C11 edge HD as my next scope, the thing is getting a mount for that doesn't seem very cheap.

I could get a second hand EQ6-R pro for around 1000$, which is a fairly good price for such mount, I'm wondering if this mount would be good enough to support the C11 edge HD + hyperstar.

 

According to the specs, the EQ6R payload is 44 lbs(which is around 20kg), the C11 Edge HD weight is 28 lbs (which is a bit below 13 kg), the hyperstar weight is 2.1 lbs(a bit less than 1 kg), ZWO camera which weights 1.1 lbs(~500g), the guidingscope + guiding camera which weights around 1.3 lbs(~600g), totaling at approximately 32.5 lbs or 14.7kg.

 

Now I've never really got to read anything about it anywhere, but I assume that simply being below the specs payload doesn't actually means that the tracking will be good, so this is where my actual question comes, would the EQ6R-pro be enough to support the C11 Edge HD + hyperstar for DSO imaging?

 

I was actually fairly sure about getting a good refractor, but this is not a general thread about which scope to get, but rather a very specific thread regarding mounting the C11 edge on the EQ6R-pro, so please try to keep it specific and not recommend other setups for now, since I currently have an awesome deal about the equipment listed above it's something I'm starting to consider. When the time comes I'm sure I'll open another thread about which scope I should get.

 

Thanks for the help.



#2 jerahian

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 07:34 PM

Well, I don't have the exact weight of my setup, but I think it's close to your 32.5 lbs.  I have my ES127 FCD-100, which weighs in at a cool 18 lbs.  On top of that, I have an ST80 with the 1.25" extender as my guide scope at 3.5 lbs.  Attached to the main scope I have a 2.5" Moonlite focuser with the motor (heavy, but I don't know the weight), the ES 0.7x FR/FF at 1.5bs, ZWO EFW8 (1 lb), and finally, my ASI1600MM-Cool (1.1 lbs).

 

So, my rough total is 25.1 without the Moonlite, which I imagine is at between 2-3 lbs.  So, that's 4-5 lbs. below your calculated weight, and I do feel I'm pushing the mount.  Personally, I do not think 32.5 lbs. would be a good idea on the EQ6-R Pro.

 

Good luck in your decision.

 

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#3 f300v10

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Posted 18 September 2019 - 08:06 PM

I use a C11 XLT on my EQ6-R and it guides great.  My full setup includes a Starizona SCT III 0.63 reducer/corrector, a Celestron OAG with an ASI290mm guide camera and ASI294MC-Pro to image.  I run the 290mm binned 2x2 so the guider pixel scale is 0.7 arcsec/pixel.  My typical guiding error runs between 0.55 and 0.65 arcsec RMS.  I have seen it as low as 0.38 on a night with good seeing, and as high as 0.75.

 

I'm imaging at 1760mm, while with a hyper star you will be around 560mm.  An EQ6-R would have no problem at that low a focal length.  I will add that guider image scale has proven to have more impact on the guiding accuracy of my EQ6-R than the weight of the scope.  When used with a 60/280mm guide scope and the ASI290mm, my typical guide error is a bit higher (0.7-0.8 RMS).


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#4 msacco

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 12:32 AM

Well, I don't have the exact weight of my setup, but I think it's close to your 32.5 lbs.  I have my ES127 FCD-100, which weighs in at a cool 18 lbs.  On top of that, I have an ST80 with the 1.25" extender as my guide scope at 3.5 lbs.  Attached to the main scope I have a 2.5" Moonlite focuser with the motor (heavy, but I don't know the weight), the ES 0.7x FR/FF at 1.5bs, ZWO EFW8 (1 lb), and finally, my ASI1600MM-Cool (1.1 lbs).

 

So, my rough total is 25.1 without the Moonlite, which I imagine is at between 2-3 lbs.  So, that's 4-5 lbs. below your calculated weight, and I do feel I'm pushing the mount.  Personally, I do not think 32.5 lbs. would be a good idea on the EQ6-R Pro.

 

Good luck in your decision.

 

-Ara

Interesting, that is a hard decision to make, thanks, I'll wait for more suggestions :)

 

I use a C11 XLT on my EQ6-R and it guides great.  My full setup includes a Starizona SCT III 0.63 reducer/corrector, a Celestron OAG with an ASI290mm guide camera and ASI294MC-Pro to image.  I run the 290mm binned 2x2 so the guider pixel scale is 0.7 arcsec/pixel.  My typical guiding error runs between 0.55 and 0.65 arcsec RMS.  I have seen it as low as 0.38 on a night with good seeing, and as high as 0.75.

 

I'm imaging at 1760mm, while with a hyper star you will be around 560mm.  An EQ6-R would have no problem at that low a focal length.  I will add that guider image scale has proven to have more impact on the guiding accuracy of my EQ6-R than the weight of the scope.  When used with a 60/280mm guide scope and the ASI290mm, my typical guide error is a bit higher (0.7-0.8 RMS).

Thanks for the comment, would you recommend me going with the EQ6R pro and C11? Or would you recommend me getting something safer?



#5 f300v10

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 07:31 AM

Msacco,

 

Money aside you can never have to good a mount.  I'm also not trying to recommend any course of action, I was merely trying to provide a data point you could use to help make your decision.  There is a significant jump in cost ($600) to get to a 'safer' (higher weight class) mount.  The CEM60 or CGEM would fit the bill, but those run $2200 new.

 

What I can say is my particular EQ6-R has proven more than capable of accurately guiding two 33+ lb (C11 and MN190) imaging setups, night after night.  I wasn't sure it would handle the C11 when I purchased that scope, but it has with apparent ease.  That doesn't mean all EQ6-Rs would perform the same way, perhaps mine is 'better' than the average unit, I have no way of knowing.  But I don't think mine is the exception either.  One of the top imagers on Astrobin, Lorenzo Siciliano, has used a C11 on an EQ6 (non-R, so less weight capacity) for years with amazing results.

 

https://www.astrobin...renzoSiciliano/



#6 EFT

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 11:14 AM

The performance of mounts at this level varies from one mount to the next so it is difficult to make broad generalizations, but the mount should be able to deal with the C11HD Hyperstar reasonably.  You may still be limited in the length or exposures and need to guide but the fast nature of the setup helps address those issues.

 

One thing to be sure of is that the Hyperstar is the correct one for the EdgeHD scope you want.  There are two different versions and they are not interchangeable.


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#7 msacco

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 02:15 PM

Msacco,

 

Money aside you can never have to good a mount.  I'm also not trying to recommend any course of action, I was merely trying to provide a data point you could use to help make your decision.  There is a significant jump in cost ($600) to get to a 'safer' (higher weight class) mount.  The CEM60 or CGEM would fit the bill, but those run $2200 new.

 

What I can say is my particular EQ6-R has proven more than capable of accurately guiding two 33+ lb (C11 and MN190) imaging setups, night after night.  I wasn't sure it would handle the C11 when I purchased that scope, but it has with apparent ease.  That doesn't mean all EQ6-Rs would perform the same way, perhaps mine is 'better' than the average unit, I have no way of knowing.  But I don't think mine is the exception either.  One of the top imagers on Astrobin, Lorenzo Siciliano, has used a C11 on an EQ6 (non-R, so less weight capacity) for years with amazing results.

 

https://www.astrobin...renzoSiciliano/

Thanks a lot for the comment, I'm not really sure if it's still the same class or not, but I also have a CGX mount I could get for around 1700$(maybe even a bit less).

By 'specs' it should be a better mount than the EQ6R-pro, but reviews are going both ways, so kinda hard to tell.

 

The performance of mounts at this level varies from one mount to the next so it is difficult to make broad generalizations, but the mount should be able to deal with the C11HD Hyperstar reasonably.  You may still be limited in the length or exposures and need to guide but the fast nature of the setup helps address those issues.

 

One thing to be sure of is that the Hyperstar is the correct one for the EdgeHD scope you want.  There are two different versions and they are not interchangeable.

Yes the hyperstar point is very correct, that should in theory make my exposure times shorter so I won't need as durable mount, but I do hope on being able to image at f/10 as well, so that's something that needs to be considered as well.

 

Question for both of you, do you have any idea on how I can test the C11 on the EQ6R pro mount?

Thanks :)



#8 EFT

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 02:30 PM

If I had to choose between the EQ6-R and the CGX at this point, I would recommend the EQ6-R.  The only downside to the EQ6-R is that the Synscan hand controller is not as good as the Nexstar.

 

F/10 should be possible for planets, the moon and video astronomy, but, for anything deep sky that requires long exposure (above 2 to 5 minutes), it will not be suitable in general.  While there are always exceptions, there aren't too many.  Even at f/7 the C11HD would be a challenge.  With this are a scope on any of the mounts in this capacity class, you really need to keep your exposures as short as possible in order to not see the inevitable problems with the tracking.  In reality, the C11HD at f/10 can be a challenge on any of the non-premium mounts, even those with greater capacities.  The design and manufacturing of these mounts is a limiting factor.

 

All you can do to test is get hold of both items, a camera, and a guiding system and try it out.  Visual testing will tell you almost nothing when it comes to imaging.



#9 msacco

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 02:53 PM

If I had to choose between the EQ6-R and the CGX at this point, I would recommend the EQ6-R.  The only downside to the EQ6-R is that the Synscan hand controller is not as good as the Nexstar.

 

F/10 should be possible for planets, the moon and video astronomy, but, for anything deep sky that requires long exposure (above 2 to 5 minutes), it will not be suitable in general.  While there are always exceptions, there aren't too many.  Even at f/7 the C11HD would be a challenge.  With this are a scope on any of the mounts in this capacity class, you really need to keep your exposures as short as possible in order to not see the inevitable problems with the tracking.  In reality, the C11HD at f/10 can be a challenge on any of the non-premium mounts, even those with greater capacities.  The design and manufacturing of these mounts is a limiting factor.

 

All you can do to test is get hold of both items, a camera, and a guiding system and try it out.  Visual testing will tell you almost nothing when it comes to imaging.

How bad is it imaging on f/10 with 2 minutes of exposure? Generally, that might not be all that bad considering the fact that I'll *mostly* image with the hyperstar on f/2.

Unfortunately no one I know have a C11 edge, so that might be very difficult to test.

 

Given your experience, do you think I should consider it, or just spend more on a premium mount?

Thanks.



#10 EFT

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Posted 19 September 2019 - 05:38 PM

Just about anything at f/10 can be challenging, even for only two minutes, but there is a lot to be said for how good an example is this particular mount, what guiding system is used and how well it is matched to the C11 and even the talent of the user among other things.  Tracking at f/10 is very unforgiving and the quality of the tracking and guiding of these mounts can only take you so far.  In general, most people find using a C11 size and weight scope on the Atlas/EQ6/CGEM/EQ6-R/AZEQ6 to be a frustrating endeavor. 

 

If you have the money, then it is always going make everything easier with a premium mount and the lowest level, AP, SB, and 10Micron mounts are all capable of handling a C11HD.  But you are spending quite a bit more.  If you don't have the money to move up, then you just need to realized the limitations of the mount, e.g., the C11HD and other similar size, weight and speed scopes will be difficult to work with and exposure longer than 5 minute (guided) may not be possible.  At the same time, a Hyperstar could work fairly well and smaller SCTs and refactors are likely to work much better as well.  There is a lot of very good work that you can do on a mount like this, but long exposure, deep sky, high magnification imaging is not likely to be one of them.


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#11 msacco

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 12:30 AM

Just about anything at f/10 can be challenging, even for only two minutes, but there is a lot to be said for how good an example is this particular mount, what guiding system is used and how well it is matched to the C11 and even the talent of the user among other things.  Tracking at f/10 is very unforgiving and the quality of the tracking and guiding of these mounts can only take you so far.  In general, most people find using a C11 size and weight scope on the Atlas/EQ6/CGEM/EQ6-R/AZEQ6 to be a frustrating endeavor. 

 

If you have the money, then it is always going make everything easier with a premium mount and the lowest level, AP, SB, and 10Micron mounts are all capable of handling a C11HD.  But you are spending quite a bit more.  If you don't have the money to move up, then you just need to realized the limitations of the mount, e.g., the C11HD and other similar size, weight and speed scopes will be difficult to work with and exposure longer than 5 minute (guided) may not be possible.  At the same time, a Hyperstar could work fairly well and smaller SCTs and refactors are likely to work much better as well.  There is a lot of very good work that you can do on a mount like this, but long exposure, deep sky, high magnification imaging is not likely to be one of them.

Thanks for the comment once again, I'll think more deeply about all of this.

Generally, the issue for me is that I'm not from the US, so buying anything ends up extremely expensive due to customs, tax and shipping cost, this is why I'm trying as much as I can to consider a second hand equipment.

 

Thanks :)



#12 EFT

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 01:43 AM

Used equipment is not a bad way to go when you can find what you need.  Where are you located?  I know that duty can be extreme in some places.



#13 msacco

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 04:04 AM

Used equipment is not a bad way to go when you can find what you need.  Where are you located?  I know that duty can be extreme in some places.

I'm from Israel, local shops are very limited/expensive, and shipping from outside shops are also very expensive :\

Man....looking at the classified section, I envy US citizens so much. You could literally get something so amazing for such an amazing price, about 1/3 or 1/4 of what I'll need to pay.

 

Do you think someone will be willing to ship equipment to Israel? I'll pay for the shipping obviously.


Edited by msacco, 20 September 2019 - 08:47 AM.


#14 MHamburg

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 11:59 AM

Hello,

I have had good success imaging with my Edge 11HD CGEM at f/10 using an OAG and a Lodestar camera and PHD2 for guiding. I generally have limited my subs to 2 or 3 minutes. I have to disclose that my gear is permanently mounted on a pier in my observatory, but on some occasions gremlins prevent good guiding. Also Ed Thomas did a hypertune on the mount. 

Michael

 

ps: 1st image shows balanced set-up for imaging with 80mm refractor riding piggyback on the 11" which guiding with Lodestar.

      2nd image shows M31 taken with the 80mm.

      3rd image shows NGC 7331 taken with the 11" and guided with the OAG.

     

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  • 20160107_085426.jpg
  • M31.jpg


#15 MHamburg

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 12:01 PM

3rd image:

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  • NGC 7331.jpg


#16 EFT

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Posted 20 September 2019 - 04:58 PM

I'm from Israel, local shops are very limited/expensive, and shipping from outside shops are also very expensive :\

Man....looking at the classified section, I envy US citizens so much. You could literally get something so amazing for such an amazing price, about 1/3 or 1/4 of what I'll need to pay.

 

Do you think someone will be willing to ship equipment to Israel? I'll pay for the shipping obviously.

Most people will not ship overseas but it doesn't hurt to ask.  I don't about Israel's duty system is set up.  Do they have import agreements with any other countries?



#17 f300v10

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 10:04 AM

Here is a shot of NGC 7331 taken last night under less than ideal conditions (wind) using my C11 XLT reduced to f6.4 (1800mm) on my EQ6-R.  Most here would not recommend this heavy or long a scope on an EQ6-R, but it does work for me.

 

 

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  • NGC7331_APP1_PS1_small1.jpg


#18 msacco

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 10:29 AM

Here is a shot of NGC 7331 taken last night under less than ideal conditions (wind) using my C11 XLT reduced to f6.4 (1800mm) on my EQ6-R.  Most here would not recommend this heavy or long a scope on an EQ6-R, but it does work for me.

Very nice image! Did you took it from a dark site? What was the exposure time? Are you able to image at full focal length? If so at what exposure time? Are you guided?

Thanks :)



#19 f300v10

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 10:37 AM

msacco,

 

That was 64 2 minute subs shot with an ASI294MC-Pro one shot color camera.  I did take that at my 'dark site', which is a Bortle 4.5 or so, not super dark, but not bad. I do guide using an OAG and ASI290mm guide camera.  I have not tried shooting DSO's at full focal length, F10 is just too slow for me.



#20 msacco

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 11:32 AM

msacco,

 

That was 64 2 minute subs shot with an ASI294MC-Pro one shot color camera.  I did take that at my 'dark site', which is a Bortle 4.5 or so, not super dark, but not bad. I do guide using an OAG and ASI290mm guide camera.  I have not tried shooting DSO's at full focal length, F10 is just too slow for me.

Interesting, it really seems like most people who uses the C11 on EQ6R pro or similar is shooting at 2 minutes subs. I will be using the 224MC for guiding(which should be decent), but not very good for OAG I believe.

Since I'll probably shoot mostly with the hyperstar, using an OAG for that is probably bad. Did you try guiding with a guidingscope?


Edited by msacco, 21 September 2019 - 11:32 AM.


#21 f300v10

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 05:28 PM

I use 2 minute subs to keep from clipping the brighter stars, I could go longer from a guiding standpoint if needed. I believe you are correct that an OAG is not the way to go with a hyperstar, I don't think it would even work.  I never tried a guidescope with the C11.  It would add yet more weight to an already heavy load.  Also I use an OAG on anything 1000mm or longer so that the guider image scale is high enough. 



#22 msacco

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Posted 21 September 2019 - 11:27 PM

I use 2 minute subs to keep from clipping the brighter stars, I could go longer from a guiding standpoint if needed. I believe you are correct that an OAG is not the way to go with a hyperstar, I don't think it would even work.  I never tried a guidescope with the C11.  It would add yet more weight to an already heavy load.  Also I use an OAG on anything 1000mm or longer so that the guider image scale is high enough. 

Oh that's much different than I thought...really makes me wonder about the guiding.

 

By not using a guiding do you also mean that you don't have your finder attached at all?

I don't think a guider would add up all that much(600g all together).



#23 f300v10

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 01:10 PM

I do have the finder on the C11 in case I need it.  But I would never try to guide a C11 with a small guide scope mounted to the finder bracket, it is just not rigid enough to hold a guide scope that would be big enough.  I would need to mount a second dovetail plate on top of the scope, and use that to mount a guide scope, at least 400mm in focal length.  Ending up with something like this.  Which adds a lot of weight, and the weight is mounted high above the mount, which is a bad thing for guiding accuracy.  The OAG is the way to go when shooting F6.3 or F10.

 

njp-3.jpg

 

 

 Now if you're using the hyper star at F2, you might be able to get away with using a small guide scope mounted on the finder bracket.  There is a huge difference between guiding at 560mm (hyper star) and guiding at 1760mm (F6.3) or 2800mm(F10).  



#24 cayalag

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 03:02 PM

I use 2 minute subs to keep from clipping the brighter stars, I could go longer from a guiding standpoint if needed. I believe you are correct that an OAG is not the way to go with a hyperstar, I don't think it would even work.  I never tried a guidescope with the C11.  It would add yet more weight to an already heavy load.  Also I use an OAG on anything 1000mm or longer so that the guider image scale is high enough. 

 

I just bought myself a C11 Edge, as it was a great opportunity. I have an Eq6-r Pro as well and I thought I'd have to go for a CEM60 at the very least... 

 

I guess you are using OAG, which one do you use/recommend for this scope? I'd be attaching a 224MC to it... at least for the moment.


Edited by cayalag, 22 September 2019 - 03:03 PM.


#25 f300v10

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Posted 22 September 2019 - 03:10 PM

cayalag,

 

I use the Celestron Deluxe OAG.  It comes with 3 telescope adaptors, one for SCT threads, along with 48 and 42mm.  It's very sturdy, has a nice large prism and a helical focuser.  The only real down side is it takes up a fair amount of back focus due to the width of the unit.




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