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Battle of the 12mm’s - Docter vs APM vs Baader

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#1 RickyD85

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 04:53 PM

Am thinking about getting what seem to be the ultimate eyepiece pair for us bino users - the 12mm Docters.

Currently using Baader Morpheus 12.5mm, very happy with the optical quality, FOV but have never been overly comfortable with eye placement. Feel like I need to be very close, and I don’t find it a particularly comfortable view.

I’m wondering if the Docter eyepieces will improve on that?

And just to make things a bit more complicated, APM also have their nee flat wide 12mm eyepieces which seem almost like a Docter clone. I wonder how they compare to both the Docters and the Morpheus for comfortable viewing? Bonus is that they are significantly cheaper.

If the Docters really are in a different league I might have to invest in a pair.
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#2 CMacD

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 04:58 PM

One thing I haven't quite understood is why people don't like to use the TeleVue Delos eyepieces with their binoculars. Why are Docters considered "better"?



#3 vkhastro1

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 06:23 PM

Here is my take with my APM 100 ED binoculars.

I own a pair of each of the following 1.25” eyepieces.

I wear glasses but do not require them for viewing.

My IPD is 61.5mm.

I love widefield eyepieces.

 

Docter 12.5mm

APM 12.5mm

Baader Morpheus 12.5mm

Delite 11mm

 

I did have a pair of Delos 12mm for use in a binoviewer (basically similar ergonomics as a binocular) but the width of the Delos was too wide for my IPD for comfortable use. Sold one off, kept one.

 

#1 choice: Docter 12.5mm - absolutely “to die for” view, perfect eye-relief, high transmission, amazing contrast, perfect ergonomics, smooth barrel, AFOV of 84° but seems more like 88°, only one of a series of one. I can spend the entire night observing with this pair !

 

#2. APM 12.5mm - excellent lower price option, just slightly behind the Docter 12.5mm in optical quality, excellent ergonomics, smooth barrel, AFOV of 84°, only one of a current series of one (a 18.75mm version is in the works, next year ?).

 

#3 Baader Morpheus 12.5mm  - I really enjoy the entire Baader Morpheus series - have pairs of all except 4.5mm (too much EOFB), excellent transmission, comfortable eye relief, excellent ergonomics, smooth barrel, AFOV of 76°. 

 

#4 DeLite 11mm (similar to DeLite 13mm, I have a single), extremely high transmission/contrast, extremely ergonomic,

lightest weight, unfortunately undercut barrel and limited AFOV of 62°, a member of a large series of DeLites. 

 

Additional comments:

 

If money is no option, get the Docter 12.5mm. Maximum FOV with super contrast. Absolutely amazing.

 

Best $ alternative to the Docter 12.5 is APM 12.5mm. When the 18.75mm version is released (if optically equal to the current 12.5mm version) with the 12.5mm would be a great combo. I bought the APMs as a lover $ alternative to the Docter 12.5 - very pleasantly surprised !

 

The Baader Morpheus take a little use to get used to for the proper eye relief/positioning, the new included barrel extender is a must to enjoy this eyepiece to its fullest potential. I would give the 12.5mm another try. It sounds you are too close to the top eye-lens and are getting blackouts. If you like it more then maybe other members of the series (17.5mm and 9mm) could be purchased. I like the Baader Morpheus as a lower $ option to the Delos.

 

All of the fore mentioned choices are excellent and your experience may differ from mine.


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#4 ZX12

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Posted 23 September 2019 - 06:42 PM

I have been using the 12.5 Doctor's, 12.5 APM's and have tried the 12mm Morpheus and 12 Delos in the APM 70, 100, 120, and 150.

 

They are all excellent optically, and I found eye relief and placement comfortable and close enough to not be an issue without eyeglasses.

The Morpheus was somewhat difficult with eye placement without the included extender. 

 

The Delos and Morpheus are sharp to the edge in all the above binos, while the 12.5 Doctor and APM have a slight distortion on the edge that is very minor.

 

The Doctor and APM might be slightly sharper at center field as I have detected some very faint stars that were later seen in the 12 Delos and Morpheus.

 

In very dark skies I can see a very subtle brightening of the field in the outermost portion of the Doctor's and APM's, but not in the Delos and Morpheus.

 

If you want the larger field size, then go with the 12.5 APM's since they are a bargain compared to the 12.5 Doctor/Noblex.

 

All that aside, I use the 14 Delos more often in the APM150 than anything else near that focal length. Just the right amount of exit pupil and power, while being sharp to the edge.

The 14 Morpheus would likely be similar though I have not tried it.

 

It was the same with the APM120, but the APM 70 is perfection with the Doctor's.  

 

Mike   

 

 

 

  


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#5 Erik Bakker

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 02:47 AM

Wonderful to read those personal experiences with these eyepieces in your binoculars. As with all binocular eyepieces and their intrinsic qualities, interaction with one's personal (topography) of face and eyes plays a significant role in overall user preferences too.


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#6 RickyD85

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 04:16 AM

Guys, many thanks for your input.

I’ve read many reviews of the Docter and the Morpheus, and bow that the Docter will squeeze out that last few % in visual performance.

However I am quite happy with the optics of the Morpheus and gaining a tiny bit more performance is not a priority for me (the views are already incredible). What I would happily pay much more for however is comfort in use, there was a German word which I saw to describe the Docters. I can’t remember what it was, but it describes the ‘ease/comfort of use’ and that is something that rates really highly for me.

At my age (34 years old) I do not suffer from any eye conditions that diminish the quality of the view and i’m not sensitive to astigmatism etc, so the priority for me is that ease of use i’ve heard about the Docters.

I want to place my eyes and be in the image, i feel like i am battling blackouts/kidney beaning with the Morpheus sometimes, I just can’t get eye placement/eye relief ‘just right’. Can get 90% but feel there is definate room for inprovement. I do have deep set eyes which I am sure doesn’t help matters.

#7 ArsMachina

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 04:47 AM

Noone is using Ethos 13 instead?

I have a pair and really like them in binoscopes but never had a chance to compare them to the Docters

 

Jochen



#8 vkhastro1

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 06:34 AM

Two other points that I use to optimize binoviewing.

 

- sit down on a comfortable observing chair - allows your body to relax and increases your eyes “steadiness”

- use an observing “monk-style” hood - cuts out ambient light allowing maximum eye dilation



#9 range88

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 08:28 AM

I have used Ethos 3.7,6,8,13,17 and Docter 12.5 on binoculars.

I found 8 & 13 are real gems, they beat the Docter down right.


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#10 vkhastro1

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 09:15 AM

I have used Ethos 3.7,6,8,13,17 and Docter 12.5 on binoculars.

I found 8 & 13 are real gems, they beat the Docter down right.

The Ethos are definitely amazing eyepieces but their body widths are slightly too wide for my 61.5mm IPD.

There is a CN Post of a member removing the outer rubber portion on the eyepiece barrels and machining the metal barrels to narrow their width.

Not for me, I prefer my Docter 12.5mm over my Ethos 13mm in mono mode.


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#11 Allan Wade

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 01:05 PM

It’s the Docter ergonomics that make them the standout bino eyepieces in my experience. Plus the fact they are such high quality optics makes them unbeatable at their focal length.

 

I rate the Delos as good as any widefield I have, but their extra barrel width makes them less suited to binoviewing for me with my 65mm IPD.


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#12 ArsMachina

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 04:59 PM

I have used Ethos 3.7,6,8,13,17 and Docter 12.5 on binoculars.

I found 8 & 13 are real gems, they beat the Docter down right.

I also like the Ethos 17mm, here my set beside the 13mm.

Both sets are downturned for 63mm ipd

 

ethosmod.JPG

 

Jochen


Edited by ArsMachina, 24 September 2019 - 05:00 PM.

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#13 ZX12

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 07:50 PM

The 13 Ethos comes to focus in the APM150, and has enough clearance in stock form for my 68mm IPD.

 

The view is amazing at 64x, with sharp stars to the edge and excellent contrast.

 

Not quite as comfortable with eye relief as the 12.5 Doctor's, but the huge field is literally a porthole in space.

 

Mike 



#14 Glass Man

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 11:22 PM


I want to place my eyes and be in the image, i feel like i am battling blackouts/kidney beaning with the Morpheus sometimes, I just can’t get eye placement/eye relief ‘just right’. Can get 90% but feel there is definate room for inprovement. I do have deep set eyes which I am sure doesn’t help matters.

Are you using the Morpheus with the M43 extension ring? I also have fairly deep set eyes, and like you had issues holding the exit pupil as well. This was with the 14mm that I had purchased before Baader started including the extension ring and screw on eye guards.

 

I purchased the 17.5mm when it was first introduced after reading all the glowing reviews. That’s when Baader started including the ring and screw on eye guards with each EP. I tried it with the ring and the eye guard raised and was amazed at the difference it made. That ring transformed the Morpheus into an eye piece that is as easy and comfortable to look through as a Vixen LVW. At the time I had all the Ethos between 6mm-17mm and ended up selling them and buying a set of Morpheus, with pairs of the 9mm/12.5mm/17.5mm. I actually prefer the 76 degree AFoV and I didn’t feel I was giving up much if anything optically. 

 

Last year Baader was offering the extension ring and screw on eye guard free to customers who originally didn’t have them included, not sure if that’s still ongoing or not. I highly recommend purchasing/trying the ring if you already haven’t, and see if that doesn’t eliminate your eye positioning troubles like it did for me.

 

 Best regards, Karl


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#15 RickyD85

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Posted 25 September 2019 - 07:18 AM

Hi Karl,

The M43 extension pieces make views much more comfortable, however I feel like I may need to take 1-2mm off of the extension ring when using, just a tad closer to the lens and it would be perfect. So they are a big improvement to the ease of view, but I really need to have my eyes tight to the eyepieces. This is still actually quite comfrotable for me however it introduces a lot of shakes to the image, so i'm learning to just 'touch' the eyepieces with my face, as opposed to press my face into the eyepieces. I don't expect much do I grin.gif

Otherwise I may look into a custom adaptor thats a few mm shorter than the M43 adapter, or a deeper rubber eyecup I can screw on thats a bit more rigid than the flimsy one the Morpheus comes with. On the other hand retail on a pair of Docters is around £1,400...that does buy many Morpheus eyepieces!

I'm wondering if the Docters would be the best of both worlds, I want my eyes to just touch the eyepieces and get the benefits of ease of view, without too much shakiness. The deep rubber eyecup on the Docters look good to me. I really need to try the Docters somehow.

Edited by RickyD85, 25 September 2019 - 11:07 AM.


#16 garret

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Posted 25 September 2019 - 10:23 AM

 

The M43 extension pieces make views much more comfortable, however I feel like I may need an extra 1-2mm of eye relief when using

 

For me the 5mm extension is about 1-2mm too much (I wear glasses)... I wish Baader had 2 + 3mm extension rings.

 

1-2mm more eyerelief? which Morpheus ep do you have ? the true eyerelief for the 17.5mm is already 23mm.


Edited by garret, 25 September 2019 - 10:27 AM.

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#17 RickyD85

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Posted 25 September 2019 - 11:01 AM

Sorry I didn’t write that very well.

 

I meant to say I would prefer 1-2mm less, so basically the extension ring being 1-2mm shorter as per your preference.

 

Im using the 12.5mm Morpheus and don’t wear glasses. I do have quite deep set eyes though and prominent cheek bones and brow so quite an awkward face for eyepieces unfortunately lol.gif


Edited by RickyD85, 25 September 2019 - 11:09 AM.


#18 25585

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 07:09 PM

For me the 5mm extension is about 1-2mm too much (I wear glasses)... I wish Baader had 2 + 3mm extension rings.

 

1-2mm more eyerelief? which Morpheus ep do you have ? the true eyerelief for the 17.5mm is already 23mm.

The eyecup can screw on without a M43 ring, is that too shallow?

 

Otherwise, Morphei being Baader, might take Baader adapter, or T2 & other spacers for afocal use. I am going to experiment.


Edited by 25585, 29 December 2019 - 07:11 PM.


#19 25585

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Posted 16 July 2020 - 03:32 PM

For me the 5mm extension is about 1-2mm too much (I wear glasses)... I wish Baader had 2 + 3mm extension rings.

 

1-2mm more eyerelief? which Morpheus ep do you have ? the true eyerelief for the 17.5mm is already 23mm.

My Morpheus eyepieces have the peel on/off original eyecups, no M43 OE as came with the 17.5mm. I find those original eyecups, turned down, are ideal for spacing and protecting my glasses lenses.

 

Between Doc-lex and APM, which is better for eye positioning ease and exit pupil behaviour?  




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