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Any Reason I shouldn't buy an Apertura AD12 as a beginner?

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#1 Big_Eight

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:50 PM

I think I've settled on grabbing the Apertura AD12 as my first scope here before too long.

Any reason I shouldn't?

For context I'm 6'4" and 280lbs and have a truck. I used to throw 90lb hay bales for fun.

I figure I'll grab this and some great 2" ES eyepieces or some used Televue Eyepieces so I can finally move on from my binos and see some in depth views.

Love this forum lots of great information!

I'm dying to see M42 and Pleiades up close and personal as well as a bunch of DSO's. So excited to join your world!

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#2 Augustus

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:55 PM

It's not weight that's the problem; it's the sheer width of the tube and base. I am 6' 2" and while I'm admittedly not the strongest I have quite a lot of trouble maneuvering the scope and base around due to the awkwardness - there aren't many places to grab. You'll probably end up wanting to convert the scope to a truss.


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#3 Big_Eight

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:56 PM

It's not weight that's the problem; it's the sheer width of the tube and base. I am 6' 2" and while I'm admittedly not the strongest I have quite a lot of trouble maneuvering the scope and base around due to the awkwardness - there aren't many places to grab. You'll probably end up wanting to convert the scope to a truss.

Are there any straps I can grab that will make it easier to carry the tube?

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#4 kfiscus

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 07:00 PM

It's a great scope and you'll physically be able to move it.  I have two Z12s (the same as the AD12) and am 5'8".

 

The real issue is if you're going to do well in using it as a beginner.  I don't want to sound condescending.  The larger aperture will shrink your field of view somewhat.  Using low-power EPs will be your key to starhopping if you get the 12".  Good luck.

 

EDIT:  Get two Strap-A-Handles.   I got mine at Staples.  They're sold in big box stores.

Here's how I move my 12" scope:  Remove the dust cap and grab the front of the tube with my left hand and get both of the Strap-A-Handles in my right hand.  With practice, the dance with the tube at your hip is fairly graceful.

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Edited by kfiscus, 22 October 2019 - 07:09 PM.

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#5 Lukes1040

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 07:20 PM

I bought the Velcro version of the handles. It can be unwieldy without them, but they help dramatically. 
 

I built this ugly holder from scraps to help transport it in my truck. Fits just right with a pillow in front of and behind the tube in my 5.5’ bed. 
 

This was my first scope as a beginner a few years ago. A telrad is a great addition to help locate objects. 

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#6 Big_Eight

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 07:23 PM

I bought the Velcro version of the handles. It can be unwieldy without them, but they help dramatically.

I built this ugly holder from scraps to help transport it in my truck. Fits just right with a pillow in front of and behind the tube in my 5.5’ bed.

This was my first scope as a beginner a few years ago. A telrad is a great addition to helping locate objects.

Nice thanks!

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#7 rowdy388

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 07:24 PM

I'm 66 and can lift my Z12 in two pieces no problem. I cradle the front of the tube under one arm and grip the mirror end with the other hand. I usually don't have to lift it though as I can just roll it off the porch on a cart.


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#8 vtornado

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 07:38 PM

Hello and welcome to cloudy nights.

 

Since this is your first scope, there are some reasons why this scope may not be the best for you.

 

As others mentioned, the focal length is 1500mm which limits the amount of sky you can see at a time.

This scope will take an hour to cool if you can't store it outside before you start observing.

It is expensive (but not expensive for you get).

 

Some things about this hobby are not fun.

Lots of clouds, late nights, cold, mosquitoes.

You may decide that you are not so into it, and the pain of setting up this beast is not so appealing on any give night.

 

You could get a used 8 inch dob for $200.00 and see if this hobby is right for you.

If it is you can sell the dob for $200 and use the money for your next big scope.

Or you could keep the 8, and buy a small refractor on a portable mount as something

to take out when you only have a small time to observe.

 

If I haven't poured enough cold water on your dream as of yet, go for it.

I'm looking for a 12 inch scope too, but I am looking for a truss. 

I don't have a pick up.

 

good luck,

VT.


Edited by vtornado, 22 October 2019 - 07:39 PM.

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#9 Big_Eight

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 07:59 PM

Hello and welcome to cloudy nights.

Since this is your first scope, there are some reasons why this scope may not be the best for you.

As others mentioned, the focal length is 1500mm which limits the amount of sky you can see at a time.
This scope will take an hour to cool if you can't store it outside before you start observing.
It is expensive (but not expensive for you get).

Some things about this hobby are not fun.
Lots of clouds, late nights, cold, mosquitoes.
You may decide that you are not so into it, and the pain of setting up this beast is not so appealing on any give night.

You could get a used 8 inch dob for $200.00 and see if this hobby is right for you.
If it is you can sell the dob for $200 and use the money for your next big scope.
Or you could keep the 8, and buy a small refractor on a portable mount as something
to take out when you only have a small time to observe.

If I haven't poured enough cold water on your dream as of yet, go for it.
I'm looking for a 12 inch scope too, but I am looking for a truss.
I don't have a pick up.

good luck,
VT.

I appreciate your honest opinion!

Keep'em coming everybody I appreciate your input.

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#10 Big_Eight

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 08:15 PM

It's a great scope and you'll physically be able to move it.  I have two Z12s (the same as the AD12) and am 5'8".

 

The real issue is if you're going to do well in using it as a beginner.  I don't want to sound condescending.  The larger aperture will shrink your field of view somewhat.  Using low-power EPs will be your key to starhopping if you get the 12".  Good luck.

 

EDIT:  Get two Strap-A-Handles.   I got mine at Staples.  They're sold in big box stores.

Here's how I move my 12" scope:  Remove the dust cap and grab the front of the tube with my left hand and get both of the Strap-A-Handles in my right hand.  With practice, the dance with the tube at your hip is fairly graceful.

If I put some money in to eye pieces say 82 to 100 degrees for like Televue or ES would that help with the FOV issue (I'm aware they are an arm and a leg regarding cost)? I would first play with the ones the scope comes with but just checking if you think that would help?



#11 Jond105

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 08:36 PM

For your size and strength, I can’t think of a good reason for you not to get one. 

 

And yes, FOV and amount of nudging will go down with 82 degree eyepieces. When I bought my dob I switched from 60 degrees to 82 degrees. It’s not necessary to do so, but it is an added bonus, now I own a mix of 100 degree and 82 degree eyepieces. 


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#12 MalVeauX

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 08:38 PM

If you're ok with the weight and physical size and have a fairy dark sky it can easily be your first and last scope. Excellent aperture for the money, you'll see gobbles of stuff. Truly.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about having lots of eyepieces. I would go for a single decent 2" wide eyepiece like the E.S. 30mm 82 degree, then something like a high quality zoom (Baader Mark IV or similar). Spend more time observing, less time fiddling and changing eyepieces all the time. Develop preferences. Then move on with developing a kit that suits your preferences.

 

The only other thing I would say is that if you're truly set on it, go ahead and consider something with a tracking dob mount by SkyWatcher Synscan series or Orion series, the tracking is nice, it's costly, but still cheaper than alternative things that are 12" aperture and portable. Adds a quick means to just observe and follow something without constantly fiddling with stuff to keep an object in your FOV. With big aperture generally comes longer focal lengths and your FOV shrinks with it, so having tracking can be a real nice thing.

 

Very best,


Edited by MalVeauX, 22 October 2019 - 08:40 PM.

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#13 Achernar

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 08:39 PM

While you will certainly like the views, especially from a dark site, the fact remains it's going to be the size of a water heater. Since you have the means to transport and set it up, it might not be a bad choice at all. However, you'll want to use it at home for quick observing sessions, and the best way to move it in and out of the house is to use a dolly or hand truck that has pneumatic tires to cushion bumps and shocks.

 

 

Taras


Edited by Achernar, 22 October 2019 - 08:48 PM.

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#14 Achernar

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 08:45 PM

If I put some money in to eye pieces say 82 to 100 degrees for like Televue or ES would that help with the FOV issue (I'm aware they are an arm and a leg regarding cost)? I would first play with the ones the scope comes with but just checking if you think that would help?

Yes, and that is why I use Explore Scientific 82 degree eyepieces with my 8-inch SCT, and my 10 and 15-inch F/4.5 Dobs. Even in my 6-inch F/8 the lighter eyepieces work very well. They are no match for Naglers, but they come close for one third to half the cost. Only negative to beware of it is the eye relief is too short to see the whole FOV if you look into them while wearing eyeglasses. You can get them on the used market, and at a later time, upgrade to Naglers or something else if you like. There's a good many moderately priced eyepieces out there that will do well in an F/5 Dob, even without a coma corrector, which I always use on my Dobs.

 

Taras


Edited by Achernar, 22 October 2019 - 08:51 PM.

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#15 Big_Eight

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 09:00 PM

If you're ok with the weight and physical size and have a fairy dark sky it can easily be your first and last scope. Excellent aperture for the money, you'll see gobbles of stuff. Truly.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about having lots of eyepieces. I would go for a single decent 2" wide eyepiece like the E.S. 30mm 82 degree, then something like a high quality zoom (Baader Mark IV or similar). Spend more time observing, less time fiddling and changing eyepieces all the time. Develop preferences. Then move on with developing a kit that suits your preferences.

 

The only other thing I would say is that if you're truly set on it, go ahead and consider something with a tracking dob mount by SkyWatcher Synscan series or Orion series, the tracking is nice, it's costly, but still cheaper than alternative things that are 12" aperture and portable. Adds a quick means to just observe and follow something without constantly fiddling with stuff to keep an object in your FOV. With big aperture generally comes longer focal lengths and your FOV shrinks with it, so having tracking can be a real nice thing.

 

Very best,

Yeah, I've thought about that. If I were to go that route, I would probably opt for the Orion XT10i since there is a ~$500+ dollar difference between the XT12i and the AD12. I have a feeling I'm going to have a lot of fun searching for those treasures in the night sky.


Edited by Big_Eight, 22 October 2019 - 09:01 PM.


#16 gnowellsct

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 10:48 PM

You got the money, you got the strength, you got the motivation.

 

Go for it.  Do get yourself a decent wide field like a 35 Pan (shudder, I don't really like them, but they're out there) or a 41 pan (more expensive, and potential balance problems--but my favorite of the Pan Optic series).  Because what was said above about needing wide field eyepieces to find stuff is true.

 

The main thing to remember is that in the usual case the real purpose of a scope is to lead you to another scope.  Too often the first scope is treated as do-or-die.  In fact time and chance happeneth to them all.  

 

I first got into SCTs, still have my SCTs, still use them.  But the bulk of my optical money is in refractors.  I would not have guess that in my first five or six years.

 

Greg N


Edited by gnowellsct, 22 October 2019 - 10:48 PM.

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#17 hdavid

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 11:58 PM

Absolutely go for it.  I did the same thing early last year.  I'm 60, 205 pounds, six feet tall and have a Ford F150 4-door.  The AD 12 fits in the back seat just fine.  I don't have the upper body strength I used to, but I have no problem lifting the tube off the cradle and sliding it in the truck.  Then the base goes in the back, throw in a couple of chairs, and the wife and I are off to dark skies.  Or, if we're viewing from the driveway, which is most of the time, I just roll it out on a platform I built.  I ordered a piece of round wood, screwed caster wheels on the bottom, installed screw-down feet, and there you go.

 

As for eyepieces, I have the Baader Zoom Mark IV (24-8 mm) with barlow and 33mm 72 degree EP from William Optics.  That's all I ever use.

 

By the way, do yourself a favor and get a green laser pointer to supplement the 9x50 finder scope that comes with the AD 12 so you'll know you're on the right star.  Made a world of difference for me.

 

AD12

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#18 Volvonium

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 12:50 AM

If you think you can commit to moving it around, go for it!  It's a great deal for huge aperture.  There's no elegant way to move it around.  While I enjoyed my Z12, I wound up parting mine out and moving to truss dobs for anything over 10".  The wide fields others are recommending are spot on.  You can see a lot with the 30mm 68 degree superview it comes with, but an 82 degree 30mm is something special.  I strongly recommend getting a Telegizmos 365 dob cover so that you can safely keep it outside. 


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#19 Big_Eight

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 04:43 AM

Absolutely go for it.  I did the same thing early last year.  I'm 60, 205 pounds, six feet tall and have a Ford F150 4-door.  The AD 12 fits in the back seat just fine.  I don't have the upper body strength I used to, but I have no problem lifting the tube off the cradle and sliding it in the truck.  Then the base goes in the back, throw in a couple of chairs, and the wife and I are off to dark skies.  Or, if we're viewing from the driveway, which is most of the time, I just roll it out on a platform I built.  I ordered a piece of round wood, screwed caster wheels on the bottom, installed screw-down feet, and there you go.

 

As for eyepieces, I have the Baader Zoom Mark IV (24-8 mm) with barlow and 33mm 72 degree EP from William Optics.  That's all I ever use.

 

By the way, do yourself a favor and get a green laser pointer to supplement the 9x50 finder scope that comes with the AD 12 so you'll know you're on the right star.  Made a world of difference for me.

 

I have a Silverado 4 door and a hard tonneau cover on the bed glad to hear it fits in the back seat that is likely what I'll do. I was also thinking of building a platform very similar to what you have with screw-down feet. Where did you get the feet from? Looks great by the way. I saw quite a few choices on McMaster Car on the web. I'll definitely take the green laser pointer in to consideration.



#20 Big_Eight

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 04:48 AM

If you think you can commit to moving it around, go for it!  It's a great deal for huge aperture.  There's no elegant way to move it around.  While I enjoyed my Z12, I wound up parting mine out and moving to truss dobs for anything over 10".  The wide fields others are recommending are spot on.  You can see a lot with the 30mm 68 degree superview it comes with, but an 82 degree 30mm is something special.  I strongly recommend getting a Telegizmos 365 dob cover so that you can safely keep it outside. 

I think I'll have some fun with the eye pieces it comes with for a bit first but a low power wider fov eyepiece will definitely be on the list. From what I've read around the forums this is a pretty big wow factor for people that have used them. Those covers are nice but at least right now I plan to keep the scope in the corner of my home office (right by the front door) by the Saxophone waytogo.gif.


Edited by Big_Eight, 23 October 2019 - 04:50 AM.


#21 Wouter1981

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 06:32 AM

Like already mentioned, the size and weight are the biggest reason why you shouldn't buy a 12inch dob. I can easily carry a 40kg bag of sand, but a 40kg telescope is another thing. A telescope is much more cumbersome and I handle a telescope a lot more careful than other objects the same weight ;-) But if you can handle it, I can't see why you shouldn't buy such a telescope.

But if it was my money, I would take another route with the eyepieces. Instead of buying expensive 82° and 100° eyepieces to create a big as possible view in the Dobson, you can buy an entire telescope with mount for the price of 1 eyepiece. Something like a skywatcher 120mm f5, which has a 2inch focuser, can show you wide fields that the Dobson could never show, while being much more transportable.

So a big Dobson, a shorttube, a good zoom eyepiece with 2x barlow and one lowpower eyepiece to maximize your field of view (example 34mm 68°) is a very flexible combination and would be my way to go.

But hey, different strokes for different people ;-)


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#22 NYJohn S

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 07:12 AM

Yeah, I've thought about that. If I were to go that route, I would probably opt for the Orion XT10i since there is a ~$500+ dollar difference between the XT12i and the AD12. I have a feeling I'm going to have a lot of fun searching for those treasures in the night sky.

Just wanted to mention the XT10i & XT12i do not have tracking. They they are push to with an object locater. They help you locate an object but you move the scope manually to get to it and to track it. I think MalVeauX was referring to a Goto dob with tracking. I think besides the cost that would add a considerable amount of weight to the base. You could always add an EQ Platform later if you decide you want tracking. I have never found it necessary but I have the XT8 with the 1200mm FL so the view's are a little wider.

 

A friend of mine has the AD 12. Next to my XT8 it looks huge but it's a nice scope and there's a significant jump in the detail when looking through the 12 vs the 8. I does seem trickier to balance the longer tube with different eyepieces. He uses magnets and positions them on the tube as needed for a simple solution.

 

I had to laugh a bit when reading your intro. You didn't mention your age but I'm assuming you are young. I'm sure there are many here that could throw 90lb bales at one time and are now using a small refractor as they got older. Luckily with their experience they probably see more than I would with a 12" dob.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide and be sure to post a report when you get it.

 

John 


Edited by NYJohn S, 23 October 2019 - 11:59 AM.

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#23 Big_Eight

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 08:52 AM

Just wanted to mention the XT10i & XT12i do not have tracking. They they are push to with an object locater. They help you locate and object but you move the scope manually to get to it and to track it. I think MalVeauX was referring to Goto dob with tracking. I think besides the cost that would add a considerable amount of weight to the base. You could always add an EQ Platform later if you decide you want tracking. I have never found it necessary but I have the XT8 with the 1200mm FL so the view's are little wider.

A friend of mine has the AD 12. Next to my XT8 it looks huge but it's a nice scope and there's a significant jump in the detail when looking through the 12 vs the 8. I does seem trickier to balance the longer tube with different eyepieces. He uses magnets and positions them on the tube as needed for a simple solution.

I had to laugh a bit when reading your into. You didn't mention your age but I'm assuming you are young. I'm sure there are many here that could throw 90lb bales at one time and are now using a small refractor as they got older. Luckily with their experience they probably see more than I would with a 12" dob.

Good luck with whatever you decide and be sure to post a report when you get it.

John

Thanks for the info John. I just turned 38 so I've got a few years left of heavy lifting in me lol.

Thanks for the goto and push too clarification. I am read up on that and if I did go towards a type of star locator mount it would be push to for a dob. Any goto solution would have me leaning towards a nexstar evolution 8 or 8se.

I have not ruled out a lighter scope in fact I've also been eyeing the Orion Starblast 6i. I have the perfect portable solid table (aluminum) in the garage.

The Orion xt8i and 10i are also of interest. The AD12 seemed the most logical cost wise and I'm not to worried about lugging it around at least for quite a few more years.

Jake


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#24 JOEinCO

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 09:09 AM

Jake... 

 

It's not just the weight. It's the cool-down time. That big hunk o' glass needs to come to equilibrium with the environment, and even if you can carry it under one arm like Superman, you have to wait an hour before views in it will be anything but mush. 

 

I guess I'm something of a fan of the 8"ers for a starting point. Used, of course! waytogo.gif  Then, as VT said, you can sell it and get all your money back if you decide you want "more", and are willing to accept the downsides of a bigger mirror/scope. 

 

Where in Colorado? 

 

...Joe


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#25 Big_Eight

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 09:18 AM

Jake... 

 

It's not just the weight. It's the cool-down time. That big hunk o' glass needs to come to equilibrium with the environment, and even if you can carry it under one arm like Superman, you have to wait an hour before views in it will be anything but mush. 

 

I guess I'm something of a fan of the 8"ers for a starting point. Used, of course! waytogo.gif  Then, as VT said, you can sell it and get all your money back if you decide you want "more", and are willing to accept the downsides of a bigger mirror/scope. 

 

Where in Colorado? 

 

...Joe

You make some great points. I've definitely got a bit to think about. I see you are in the front range. I'm over in Frederick East of Longmont.




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