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Updated Drake Equation

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#76 Jim_V

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 10:00 PM

As an elected municipal Mayor, I'll vote to keep the people as the decision makers.

 

We already have the means to take care of politicians when they start to enrich themselves.  We call them elections.

 

Will we be electing AI?

 

Somehow I don't think we will be holding elections on which AI is more "logical". 



#77 llanitedave

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 11:26 PM

As an elected municipal Mayor, I'll vote to keep the people as the decision makers.

 

We already have the means to take care of politicians when they start to enrich themselves.  We call them elections.

 

Will we be electing AI?

 

Somehow I don't think we will be holding elections on which AI is more "logical". 

I don't want to go there.  I've seen too many who find ways to use elections as a tool for self-enrichment rather than a solution to it.


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#78 DaveC2042

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 02:12 AM

I don't want to go there. I've seen too many who find ways to use elections as a tool for self-enrichment rather than a solution to it.


I really feel this a very academic debate, in that we are sooooo far from even attempting to implement such a thing, that we don't really have the faintest idea what it would look like.

First, for all the successes of getting computers to do clever stuff and calling it "AI", we don't seem to be anywhere near having a machine that could do what we would call "thinking".

Secondly, for all the work done on it over the millennia, we've made approximately zero progress in developing an agreed, systematic way of understanding what constitutes moral behaviour generally.
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#79 B l a k S t a r

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 06:51 PM

As an elected municipal Mayor, I'll vote to keep the people as the decision makers.

 

We already have the means to take care of politicians when they start to enrich themselves.  We call them elections.

 

Will we be electing AI?

 

Somehow I don't think we will be holding elections on which AI is more "logical". 

As an elected you should be concerned with prosecution under the full extent of the law when required, as any other citizen. Elections are certainly not that.


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#80 llanitedave

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 10:12 AM

I like to not give the impression that I think all elected officials, not even the majority, are in some way corrupt.  I've known a number who were exemplary.

 

Unfortunately, I have first hand experience with more than a few who were not.


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#81 B l a k S t a r

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 06:59 PM

I like to not give the impression that I think all elected officials, not even the majority, are in some way corrupt.  I've known a number who were exemplary.

 

Unfortunately, I have first hand experience with more than a few who were not.

That was not my intent but perhaps poorly worded.   Corruption-> due process. 


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#82 Ring_Singularity

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 12:45 PM

As an elected you should be concerned with prosecution under the full extent of the law when required, as any other citizen. Elections are certainly not that.

Agreed, and money does influence elections.  We need to prosecute people and also change the laws where applicable to place caps on things like superpacs, dark money, lobbying, etc. There are too many "legal" loopholes.


Edited by Ring_Singularity, 07 January 2020 - 12:46 PM.


#83 Sleep Deprived

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 01:51 PM

Agreed, and money does influence elections.  We need to prosecute people and also change the laws where applicable to place caps on things like superpacs, dark money, lobbying, etc. There are too many "legal" loopholes.

100% agree, but this is asking for the people that make the laws to cut out a great amount of the money that they now get.  It's like asking a cop to give himself a speeding ticket.


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#84 Ring_Singularity

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 02:11 PM

100% agree, but this is asking for the people that make the laws to cut out a great amount of the money that they now get.  It's like asking a cop to give himself a speeding ticket.

Self regulation is definitely not a good thing, and you see this bad approach all too often taken by the FDA, USDA, in allowing industries to regulate themselves (probably because members of those agencies formerly worked for those companies), etc.  I recently saw a story on 60 Minutes about factory farms not allowing health inspectors and the resultant overuse of antibiotics by those farms that lead to drug resistant infections.  Factory farming is bad for a variety of reasons (climate change, animal care, etc.,) but overusage of antibiotics is a big one.



#85 llanitedave

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 04:27 PM

Nice subtopic, but I think we've drifted off anything even vaguely related to the Drake Equation here...


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#86 Jim_V

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 07:49 PM

Nice subtopic, but I think we've drifted off anything even vaguely related to the Drake Equation here...

Still, and this is also a "bit" off the Drake Equation, but let us assume hypothetically, that given the limitations we face in the vast distance needed to travel in space, the seemingly most practical method would not to send people off to explore, but AI instead. 

 

I think it will not be too far off in the future before we will have probes which will be intelligent enough to make critical mission decision, removing the need for designers here on earth to have to A: attempt to account and program for all variables of a mission, and B: remove the current communication lags which are an inherent issue which mission planners also need to work out in the design stage to deal with the unforeseen problems which may show up.  

 

Imagine if Cassini could have been able to determine it's exploration upon arriving at Saturn, Instead of NASA having to extend/change the original mission plan ( twice). I am not trying to take away from what was achieved. I just wonder if an inboard AI controlling the mission may have done it in a more efficient manner. Possible leading to even more knowledge being gained. . 

 

 

Agreed, and money does influence elections.  We need to prosecute people and also change the laws where applicable to place caps on things like superpacs, dark money, lobbying, etc. There are too many "legal" loopholes.

 

100% agree, but this is asking for the people that make the laws to cut out a great amount of the money that they now get.  It's like asking a cop to give himself a speeding ticket.

While I can't give any details to the above, ( that would clearly be a TOS line crosser) I would like to point out, both the US and Canadian systems have robust and effective internal controls in place to prevent what is implied in the above. 


Edited by Jim_V, 07 January 2020 - 07:52 PM.


#87 llanitedave

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 07:56 PM

Still, and this is also a "bit" off the Drake Equation, but let us assume hypothetically, that given the limitations we face in the vast distance needed to travel in space, the seemingly most practical method would not to send people off to explore, but AI instead. 

 

I think it will not be too far off in the future before we will have probes which will be intelligent enough to make critical mission decision, removing the need for designers here on earth to have to A: attempt to account and program for all variables of a mission, and B: remove the current communication lags which are an inherent issue which mission planners also need to work out in the design stage to deal with the unforeseen problems which may show up.  

 

Imagine if Cassini could have been able to determine it's exploration upon arriving at Saturn, Instead of NASA having to extend/change the original mission plan ( twice). I am not trying to take away from what was achieved. I just wonder if an inboard AI controlling the mission may have done it in a more efficient manner. Possible leading to even more knowledge being gained. . 

 

 

 

When AI gets to that level, humans won't even have to design the hardware.  The AI will decide what's worth exploring, design the mission, build the hardware, and run it.  The humans will be inundated with cat videos, and have no idea what's going on.


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#88 Jim_V

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 08:03 PM

When AI gets to that level, humans won't even have to design the hardware.  The AI will decide what's worth exploring, design the mission, build the hardware, and run it.  The humans will be inundated with cat videos, and have no idea what's going on.

Is that the time we can just sit back and watch and learn? waytogo.gif



#89 llanitedave

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 09:36 PM

Is that the time we can just sit back and watch and learn? waytogo.gif

You'll have a chance to make new friends!


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#90 Ring_Singularity

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 08:01 AM

Still, and this is also a "bit" off the Drake Equation, but let us assume hypothetically, that given the limitations we face in the vast distance needed to travel in space, the seemingly most practical method would not to send people off to explore, but AI instead. 

 

I think it will not be too far off in the future before we will have probes which will be intelligent enough to make critical mission decision, removing the need for designers here on earth to have to A: attempt to account and program for all variables of a mission, and B: remove the current communication lags which are an inherent issue which mission planners also need to work out in the design stage to deal with the unforeseen problems which may show up.  

 

Imagine if Cassini could have been able to determine it's exploration upon arriving at Saturn, Instead of NASA having to extend/change the original mission plan ( twice). I am not trying to take away from what was achieved. I just wonder if an inboard AI controlling the mission may have done it in a more efficient manner. Possible leading to even more knowledge being gained. . 

 

 

 

While I can't give any details to the above, ( that would clearly be a TOS line crosser) I would like to point out, both the US and Canadian systems have robust and effective internal controls in place to prevent what is implied in the above. 

That's an intriguing idea, but let me present another one.  If humans want to experience space for themselves, we could one day combine artificial permanently durable bodies with human brains and do away with our fragile organic bodies once and for all.

 

About the last paragraph, I would have to strenuously disagree about the US, there is way too much dark money in the politics of the US and science denialism.  The US even unbanned a brain damaging pesticide called chlorpyrifos because of lobbying from the chemical industry.  There's talk here of going through the constitutional process to ban superpacs, which can raise an unlimited amount of money.  Through FOIA you can easily find out how much individual politicians got bribed from which industry- and it's pretty telling.  And regulatory agencies employing people from the companies they are supposed to regulate is also pretty telling (for example Boeing and the FAA, Dow and the USDA, the fossil fuel industry and the EPA, etc.)  The fossil fuel industry and pharma industry are functional cartels.  The lack of regulation is pretty alarming when you learn how many more dangerous chemicals are banned in Europe.  In America, the only way to get them banned is through the class action lawsuit (which is how chlorpyrifos, and PFOA eventually got banned.  Dow and DuPont had their fingers in the cookie jar and FOIA exposed them when their emails to certain politicians were leaked out.)

 

And the new administration's stance on clean energy and climate change speaks for itself.  They are chasing away government scientists who are now taking up jobs with universities because the administration is so hostile to science.


Edited by Ring_Singularity, 10 January 2020 - 10:09 AM.

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#91 Jim_V

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 03:27 PM

That's an intriguing idea, but let me present another one.  If humans want to experience space for themselves, we could one day combine artificial permanently durable bodies with human brains and do away with our fragile organic bodies once and for all.

 

My thoughts do lead to your possible conclusion. I am pretty sure the idea is not mine, but one read somewhere in a science fiction book in my past.

 

I do believe at some point, the ability to imprint ones self into an artificial body via an imprint able computer memory  will exists, and part of me is glad I will not be around for that...

 

 

 

 

 Through FOIA you can easily find out how much individual politicians got bribed from which industry- and it's pretty telling. 

 

 

 The key word is bribed. Which is illegal in both systems.  I do understand exactly what you mean, but, I see the TOS intruding to go further.

 

 


And the new administration's stance on clean energy and climate change speaks for itself.  They are chasing away government scientists who are now taking up jobs with universities because the administration is so hostile to science.

While I agree wholeheartedly with the above, and disagree with the changes being made, I have mentioned earlier there is a mechanism in place to deal with that.

 

As Dave say's "When I'm Dictator, we'll have a much better democracy!"


Edited by Jim_V, 11 January 2020 - 03:28 PM.

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#92 llanitedave

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 04:10 PM


 

As Dave say's "When I'm Dictator, we'll have a much better democracy!"

And the count of minions grows!!!

 

 

 

I think I'm up to...  Let me see....  starts counting...

 

Yep: 1.

 

 

I might say "including my wife", but there's some debate between us as to who would actually be the dictator.


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#93 Jim_V

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 07:18 PM

And the count of minions grows!!!

 

 

 

I think I'm up to...  Let me see....  starts counting...

 

Yep: 1.

 

 

I might say "including my wife", but there's some debate between us as to who would actually be the dictator.

There is absolutely no debate, after all who is the one who gets down on one knee prior to marriage?


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#94 llanitedave

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 07:58 PM

There is absolutely no debate, after all who is the one who gets down on one knee prior to marriage?

It doesn't end there...


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#95 Jim_V

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 08:54 PM

It doesn't end there...

nope, more like the beginningbigshock.gif ...


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#96 Ring_Singularity

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 11:50 AM

My thoughts do lead to your possible conclusion. I am pretty sure the idea is not mine, but one read somewhere in a science fiction book in my past.

 

I do believe at some point, the ability to imprint ones self into an artificial body via an imprint able computer memory  will exists, and part of me is glad I will not be around for that...

 

 

 The key word is bribed. Which is illegal in both systems.  I do understand exactly what you mean, but, I see the TOS intruding to go further.

 

 

While I agree wholeheartedly with the above, and disagree with the changes being made, I have mentioned earlier there is a mechanism in place to deal with that.

 

As Dave say's "When I'm Dictator, we'll have a much better democracy!"

Unfortunately it is legal here since the Supreme Court decreed it so.... thats why you hear both the right and left here clamoring to reverse the "Citizens United' decision.  They dont use the word "bribery" though that is really what it is, the euphemism of choice is "corporate lobbying."



#97 Ring_Singularity

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Posted 17 January 2020 - 11:52 AM

And the count of minions grows!!!

 

 

 

I think I'm up to...  Let me see....  starts counting...

 

Yep: 1.

 

 

I might say "including my wife", but there's some debate between us as to who would actually be the dictator.

I have absolutely no doubt that she is the "power behind the power."

 

Women have been underrated since the beginning of history.... after all it was Helen who was the reason the Trojan War happened ;-)



#98 llanitedave

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 12:39 AM

I have absolutely no doubt that she is the "power behind the power."

 

Women have been underrated since the beginning of history.... after all it was Helen who was the reason the Trojan War happened ;-)

Yes, her nickname in Mycenae was "Helen Wheels".


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