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ZWO ASI 6200 MM PRO initial impressions

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1178 replies to this topic

#26 chadrian84

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 05:55 PM

Yeah.  Ideally the EFW would have been designed with the filters as close to the camera as possible within the EFW.  It's hard to tell but they might look closer to the OTA side than the camera side, so f/4.5 is a decent guess.  If they were in the middle of the 20mm wheel they'd vignette at f/4.  If the EFW could be reversed with an M63 opening on the OTA side then it might be close to f/3.

 

Any of those options, f/4.5, f/4, or f/3, are still much better than limiting themselves to f/5 due to m54 threads.


Edited by chadrian84, 18 November 2019 - 06:02 PM.


#27 Coconuts

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 09:17 PM

Andy:  We're not impatient, merely very interested.  Any chance at a tilt plate thickness sanity check measurement tonight?  I will be bringing a digital caliper to B&H Video next week to confirm the L mount rear protrusion (along with visiting our daughter for Thanksgiving).  I'll report back if the L mount is ruled in or out.

 

The L mount is new, and at first glance, it should be a minor player, with Sony E mount at 18 mm being much more popular.  But the bottom line is that the L mount has a shot at compatibility with the ASI6200, while the E mount probably does not.  And Sigma (especially through their ART series) already has the highest performance lenses for astrophotography, bar none.  They understand and cater to our market, and also Sigma also has a lot at stake in supporting their fledgling camera business by having an aggressive forward roadmap of  high resolution, fast, L mount lenses.  There is a lot here to like.  The future is bright.

 

All the best,

 

Kevin


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#28 andysea

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 09:39 PM

Kevin,
Unfortunately I can only do this when I get back home at the end of the month.

Right now I’m about 6,000 miles away, in Italy. Clearly jet lagged, checking emails at 330am!
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#29 Coconuts

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Posted 18 November 2019 - 10:17 PM

Andy:  Got it; I misinterpreted "when I get home" as being after a commute from daily work.  Let us know when you can: I'll ask ZWO in the interim.  Hope your travels go smoothly.

 

All the best,

 

Kevin



#30 Gleason

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:20 AM

Hello. What were your download times for this camera unbinned?  

 

Will the 50mm cfw be available when the camera starts shipping?  right now I don't see it on their website. 

 

thx, 

 

jg


Edited by Gleason, 19 November 2019 - 01:22 AM.


#31 andysea

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 10:49 AM

Hello. What were your download times for this camera unbinned?

Will the 50mm cfw be available when the camera starts shipping? right now I don't see it on their website.

thx,

jg


I presume that both the fw and the oag will be available when the camera starts shipping.

Regarding download times i didn’t measure it precisely but the lag between frames between 2 and 3s when using NINA. With SGP they are considerably longer. Like 3 or 4 times longer. I suspect that the actual download time is the same but SGP does some other processing before displaying the image and moving on to the next frame while NINA does the processing/saving while the camera is already taking the next frame.
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#32 StockCarMafia

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 12:41 PM

I am so anxious for feedback on this!

 

Does binning 2x2 or more reduce the 16 ADC like some were speculating earlier?  

 

Is there anti-glare coating on the glass to eliminate the issues with the ASI1600 that others were reporting?  



#33 andysea

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:06 PM

I am so anxious for feedback on this!

Does binning 2x2 or more reduce the 16 ADC like some were speculating earlier?

Is there anti-glare coating on the glass to eliminate the issues with the ASI1600 that others were reporting?


I don’t know the answer to your question but I posted some calibration frames binned 2x2 for reference. Maybe those will help?

The sensor in the ASI 1600 is made by Panasonic while the 6200 has a Sony sensor. I never heard of micro lens artifacts generated by the Sony sensors so I guess the 6200 is no different. Just my guess at this point.
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#34 Coconuts

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 01:21 PM

The IMX455 is BSI, and so doesn't have or need microlenses; all of the circuitry is "buried" on the front side, which faces the cooler.

 

All the best,

 

Kevin


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#35 motab

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 02:18 PM

I am so anxious for feedback on this!

 

Does binning 2x2 or more reduce the 16 ADC like some were speculating earlier?  

 

Is there anti-glare coating on the glass to eliminate the issues with the ASI1600 that others were reporting?  

The binning is in software so there's no change in the ADC bit-depth.



#36 hoxca

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 05:33 PM

AFAIK @Coconuts BSI sensors does not mean that there is no µlenses.

Here is a microscopic view of an old sony BSI sensor.

There is definitly a µlenses.

 

Sony-Chipworks-BSI-1p75um.jpg

 

BSI still uses microlenses to reduce optical cross-talk, as light coming in at a steep angle is less prone to end up in the neighboring pixel.

 

Anyway AR coating of the sensor glass is another concern with some sensors.
But this is not a µlenses problem.


Edited by hoxca, 19 November 2019 - 05:37 PM.

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#37 rms40

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Posted 19 November 2019 - 08:23 PM

Andy, I just found this thread. Been watching other ones about the QHY600 and ASI6200. I am really glad to hear that the ASI6200mm cooling is working well. The EFW and OAG look good too.

 

Looks like we may both need a TAK M72 to ZWO M63 adapter. I use my Tak adapters on other scopes so that would work well. Maybe ZWO will make some adapters? If not, Precise Parts will be getting a lot of business.

 

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions and for the excellent write up and pictures. Now, you should have taken that camera and your scope with you! How dare you you keep us waiting...ha ha...enjoy your trip.

 

Randall

 

PS - that does look funny when you can see the M54 EFW blocking the OAG M63 opening. Hopefully, ZWO will make the OAG side of the EFW M63 as well. At least for the 7 position wheel I want!


Edited by rms40, 19 November 2019 - 08:31 PM.


#38 andysea

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:20 AM

Thank you Randall!

Yesterday I met with my friend who owns Artesky here in Italy. They can make any type of adapter for extremely reasonable prices. They also have a very clever adapter/CAA system that would work well to attach the camera to scopes that don’t have provisions for rotating the camera, it’s optical thickness can be as low as ~10mm. I may start another thread about that.
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#39 Konihlav

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:57 AM

Andy - you mean Luca S.?

 

what "extremely" reasonable prices means? :D

 

BTW I am going to get another ASI6200m hopefully soon :D


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#40 andysea

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 03:51 AM

Yep Luca

My sense is that they were about  60% what you would pay from Preciseparts. However to get an exact quote you would have to request a specific part and provide the necessary thread size and lengths.



#41 MapleEve

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 04:46 AM

AFAIK @Coconuts BSI sensors does not mean that there is no µlenses.

Here is a microscopic view of an old sony BSI sensor.

There is definitly a µlenses.

 

Sony-Chipworks-BSI-1p75um.jpg

 

BSI still uses microlenses to reduce optical cross-talk, as light coming in at a steep angle is less prone to end up in the neighboring pixel.

 

Anyway AR coating of the sensor glass is another concern with some sensors.
But this is not a µlenses problem.

I think new gens of sony cmos don't have µlenses now



#42 pbealo

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 07:56 AM

In their reply to me, ZWO explicitly said that they will not be making customized versions of the tilt plate.  So that is on us.  But at that point, many things become possible, including tip/tilt adjustments that use two orthogonal adjustments aligned with the sensor axes, and which can be accessed while the camera is mounted.  And the ability to use Leica/Sigma/Panasonic L mount lenses.  And filter wheels that screw directly to the camera.  Etc. 

 

Get thee to a Bridgeport!

 

All the best,

 

Kevin

We have one of those! 



#43 Kaydubbed

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 09:18 AM

In their reply to me, ZWO explicitly said that they will not be making customized versions of the tilt plate.  So that is on us.

Starizona is probably already machining it as king of the vendor workarounds ; )



#44 rms40

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 09:35 AM

Andy, Thanks for the info on Artesky. I definitely need an adapter and maybe you need the same. I looked last night and could not find anything that would work for TAK 72mm to M63. Who uses M63? I could only find a few WO and Stellarvue parts. There was no way to configure what I need on Precise Parts for the ZWO OAG side. It will probably be awhile before the new ZWO parts are on the PP site.

 

I use a smaller TAK 72mm CAA on my bigger scope and the larger (89mm?) CAA on my FSQ-106EDX4 (reduces down to 72mm with Tak adapter). I even had a TAK 72mm made for my Pyxis 3" rotator. Looks like I will need a male M72(scope side) to male M63 (ZWO OAG). Maybe you can bring some back and go in the biz?!?

 

Anyway, I am ready for the ASI6200. I debated this for awhile and considered a used 16803. Nope. ASI6200 seems to cool well enough for me and I will go that way. I already bought 50mm round Chroma filters for this....full set with 3nm SHO.

 

Randall

 

PS - Andy, do I have that right? The new ZWO OAG has a female m63 threaded connection towards the scope?


Edited by rms40, 20 November 2019 - 09:56 AM.

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#45 MapleEve

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 10:30 AM

I already bought 50mm round Chroma filters for this....full set with 3nm SHO.


Oops, you bought it through the official site or a local vendor? cuz the shipping fee kills me here

#46 rms40

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 11:17 AM

 Eve, Chroma is in the USA. You can purchase them through a few local USA resellers. Filters are not heavy and shipping should not be too much. You can buy them from Tolga in the USA. He may be willing to ship them to you. If not, you can probably find Astrodons from a European reseller. They are even closer to you.

 

Chroma filters are high quality. They are expensive. I use them because there are no halos around bright stars with them. I don't like halos! And, the light transmission through them is excellent at the specified spectrum. They will be great along with the high qe IMX455 sensor camera. It will be much faster to get good SNR. With the fast download of the ASI6200mm, I will be using the camera for mosaics with my long focal length scope. I believe this makes sense for me  instead of getting a larger, much more expensive sensor camera with even more expensive filters.

 

Randall



#47 Coconuts

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 01:20 PM

I still plan to measure an L mount Sigma 14-24 mm f/2.8 DG DN Art when I get to B&H next week, but scaling from lens and camera photos online indicates that the max protrusion of L mount lenses past the flange is ~ 4.5 mm. 

 

ZWO got back to me and said:

"The black front plate's thickness should be 5mm. Detailed info will be available when it's ready for release".

 

The ASI6200's 17.5 mm BFD becomes 12.5 mm with a 5.0 mm plate removed.  That becomes 17 mm when the L mount lens rear protrusion of 4.5 mm is added back in.  That provides a 3.0 mm safety margin compared to the L mount's FFD of 20.0 mm.  So I am virtually certain that L mount lenses can be fit to the ASI6200.  That's good news.

 

That same custom plate, if fitted with the Sigma MC-21 L mount to EF mount converter, will accept all of my Sigma Art Primes for the EF mount.

 

All the best,

 

Kevin



#48 MapleEve

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:25 PM

Eve, Chroma is in the USA. You can purchase them through a few local USA resellers. Filters are not heavy and shipping should not be too much. You can buy them from Tolga in the USA. He may be willing to ship them to you. If not, you can probably find Astrodons from a European reseller. They are even closer to you.
 
Chroma filters are high quality. They are expensive. I use them because there are no halos around bright stars with them. I don't like halos! And, the light transmission through them is excellent at the specified spectrum. They will be great along with the high qe IMX455 sensor camera. It will be much faster to get good SNR. With the fast download of the ASI6200mm, I will be using the camera for mosaics with my long focal length scope. I believe this makes sense for me  instead of getting a larger, much more expensive sensor camera with even more expensive filters.
 
Randall


That's quite good setup. Since the chip size game is on and CCDs dying, I would also make another remote build the next year and build my own remote observatory to a faraway (2000km+) holiday house roof.
1.png

I'm planning to change all my NB to Chroma but cannot find a suitable way to do it. The shipping fee on their official website is 90$ per filter which is insane xD
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#49 rms40

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:39 PM

MapleEve, if you can wait, I may be able to ship you some next year (Jan or Feb) at the actual postal cost. It should not be much by standard post office or DHL.

 

Randall



#50 Konihlav

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 04:09 PM

Coconuts: do NOT forget to add a way how to insert some sort of filters between the camera and the lens. The custom adapter you are about to make shall have some inner threads for mounting an astro filter in there (e.g. UV/IR cut or H-a, LPS etc.)!!! Also consider the 1/4" TPI threads for attachment to the "tripod" or any other mean of mounting the whole thing onto some sort of vixen plate or whatever... think 3 times produce once...


Edited by Konihlav, 20 November 2019 - 04:10 PM.



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