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Internet-Based Imaging: Is it economical and practical?

astrophotography equipment imaging
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31 replies to this topic

#26 imtl

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 02:10 PM

It would take a far better man than I to not be offended by:

 

"If you just buy time on those telescopes and they do everything and just send you the data then you might as well just download HST images from google and put your name on it and say you took the image. I don't really understand what is the difference."

 

If you truly believe the quote at the top of this, you'll edit that out, or ask the mods to just remove the whole post.

 

I note in passing the professional astronomers buy time on a scope, technicians do everything, and just send the astronomer the data.

 

So what you're criticizing is _exactly_ how astronomy is done these days.
 

 

You are comparing scientists that collect immense amount of data through remote or space observatories, for scientific purposes, to grabbing data for image processing and nice pictures? And you name both things astronomy? Okay, well you're entitled to your own opinion for sure. If you think that observatories live only on technicians then you do not know how they work. And technicians are awesome I agree.

 

In any case, I am not changing my post since it is my take on things and I would never even imagine asking you or anyone else to change what they wrote without justification. Its my opinion. I did not mean to offend. If you are offended then it is your choice.

 

I am done with this political debate since it is really veering off from the topic. So, I do apologize for causing that.

 

And yes, I do find the images and processing that people do as a real gem in this hobby, and like I wrote I wish I could one day get to that level and passion about pretty pictures. I am happy they do it so I can enjoy it. Thank you image processing people out there!


Edited by imtl, 09 December 2019 - 02:13 PM.


#27 kel123

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 02:13 PM

One thing I am wary about renting remote telescopes is that it is a good faith business such that you need to assume that the operator have integrity.

 

For instance, would you still find the same satisfaction in the process if you discover that the telescope actually broke down 2 years ago and the data of Eagle Nebula sent to you today was actually  the same one that has been in their database for 5 years.? 

 

What if they have been sending everybody the same data of Andromeda galaxy for 2 years ? 

 

Timestamp can easily be manipulated in software. 

 

Does this matter to anyone? 



#28 klaussius

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 02:50 PM

One thing I am wary about renting remote telescopes is that it is a good faith business such that you need to assume that the operator have integrity.

 

For instance, would you still find the same satisfaction in the process if you discover that the telescope actually broke down 2 years ago and the data of Eagle Nebula sent to you today was actually  the same one that has been in their database for 5 years.? 

 

What if they have been sending everybody the same data of Andromeda galaxy for 2 years ? 

 

Timestamp can easily be manipulated in software. 

 

Does this matter to anyone? 

If you're getting the individual subs, you could compare satellite tracks to their ephemeris to somewhat verify authenticity.

 

I think these telescope farms are a gem for budding astronomers. From what I've seen, astrophotographers enjoy tinkering with their hardware more than enough to justify owning the hardware, so it's a less valuable proposition. But, as has been said countless times in this thread, everyone has their style, and you can totally find the APer that would enjoy leasing telescope time, especially if it's a kind of instrument I would never be able to own myself.

 

Imagine being able to lease time on a 1-meter instrument with adaptive optics. I would totally enjoy being able to remotely operate such a beast, and perhaps capture a few targets with it, even if I never owned it. I would like to own the data, but even if I didn't, the experience of capturing with such an instrument might be worth the price anyway.

 

Now... doing the same with "lesser" instruments... that may not be so appealing, except for science. I think for science they're awesome tools.



#29 dawziecat

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 03:02 PM

kel123 . . .

 

I think you'd have to actually sign up and try one of these services out. Your hypothesis is hysterically wrong . . .  in my experience with iTel at least!

 

You tell the 'scope when to start exposing. When to stop.  How many subs to take with each filter, etc., etc. You watch, in real time, as the data comes in, should you so choose.

 

They provide a link back to the stored data after the run is complete, both calibrated and raw. Want to calibrate it yourself? You can. They provide the darks, flats and bias frames (although masters only.) 

 

I suppose there's a conspiracy behind every bush but your scenario is far-fetched and amounts to a "smear" against the operators of these remote-for-hire astro businesses.



#30 dawziecat

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 03:08 PM

Oh, I might add . . .

 

In my experience with iTel, they were very lenient with refunding time if you found the data to be deficient in any way. Abuse it and I can't say what they might do. But on a few occasions I sent an email that the there was a problem with the data and they immediately credited my account with the time. Very upstanding business! No chicanery. No "small print." 



#31 kel123

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 03:24 PM

kel123 . . .

 

I think you'd have to actually sign up and try one of these services out. Your hypothesis is hysterically wrong . . .  in my experience with iTel at least!

 

You tell the 'scope when to start exposing. When to stop.  How many subs to take with each filter, etc., etc. You watch, in real time, as the data comes in, should you so choose.

 

They provide a link back to the stored data after the run is complete, both calibrated and raw. Want to calibrate it yourself? You can. They provide the darks, flats and bias frames (although masters only.) 

 

I suppose there's a conspiracy behind every bush but your scenario is far-fetched and amounts to a "smear" against the operators of these remote-for-hire astro businesses.

I like that the service you subscribe to, allows you to play all that part in the process. In fact, if anything that is close to owning your own data.

However, saying it is hysterical, far fetched or conspiratorial is missing the point. So, I won't want to join issues with that as we can offer our opinions as adults and not bring in personal insults. 

You are unaware if I have registered with any of them in the past. The experience you have with your provider does not mean it cuts across. You are probably not aware that some providers require you to just book a date and wait and then, on the appointed day, you are just given the data with no contribution whatsoever or live anything.

Once again, even when you think people are out of line in a forum you can try to correct them without personal insults. I stood to be corrected, that was why I laid down the scenarios  as a question. It was never in any way declaratory. 

So, quit getting emotional and personal over simple arguments. 



#32 John Rogers

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Posted 09 December 2019 - 07:56 PM

Regarding copyright info, I found the following on the TELESCOPE.LIVE website, although it was not contained in the terms of service document, rather in a related article:

 

This paragraph seems to assign ownership to the customer:
5.1  The Customer shall own all right, title and interest in and to all of the Customer Data that is not personal data and shall have sole responsibility for the legality, reliability, integrity, accuracy and quality of all such Customer Data.

 

However, a few paragraphs later, this one seems to automatically license all rights to the image to the remote site provider:

10.3  The images obtained as part of the Services shall be owned by the Customer but the Customer hereby grants to the Supplier a non-exclusive licence to use the images for the full period of copyright subsisting in them including all periods of renewal, extension and revival of the copyright and thereafter in perpetuity and all necessary consents to enable the Supplier to assign, sublicense, change, publish, distribute, exhibit, use and otherwise exploit the images whether alone or incorporated in or in conjunction with other works worldwide and in all media whether now known or hereafter devised. The Customer is entitled to assign, license or deal in any other manner with any or all of its rights in the images.

 

The policy of iTelescope.net is more palatable to me:

Intellectual Property Rights
Members have full intellectual property rights over all data acquired by them when using iTelescope.Net systems. iTelescope.Net will periodically inspect image data coming off the network for the purposed of quality control. iTelescope.Net will not publish or share any of your data without your expressed permission.

 

There was a previous thread on the subject that I found on CN.  It contains a lot of information and perspectives: https://www.cloudyni...ger-your-image/

 

However, the concept of Deep Sky West is very intriguing to me and warrants serious investigation.  If I understand their operation correctly, one joins a team of observers, who all agree on what targets to get.  The original data is retained by Deep Sky West, but each team member receives a copy of the data and the processed image becomes the property of the team member, who actually processed the image.  Seems brilliant and fair to me!




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